Always a choice?

[Vort]

33 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

What did king David do to lead us to believe that? Are you referring to when he sent out the husband of the woman he was having an affair with into war to be killed? 

David did not merely send Uriah to war in the hopes he'd be killed. David commanded his lieutenants to lead Uriah, a man of valor and integrity, into the hottest part of battle and then treacherously abandon him. David, a man who had walked and talked with God and had arguably received greater blessings than any other man of his generation, was guilty of cold-blooded murder, done in an effort to hide his adultery with Bathsheba. This is a rarely seen level of treachery and denial of Godly covenants.

[Jimmy Tucker]

8 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Of course when we do good things / things God commands us to (because they are good for us), good things follow!   I meant to say that in the second paragraph of my previous post (sorry if it didn't convey).

If a person doesn't have the opportunity to hear about the Gospel in this life, then they will have that opportunity after death in Spirt Prison.  God is perfectly just and paves the way for ALL people to hear His Good News and accept it.  More information on Spirit Prison can be found here: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng      Important note: this is all talking about things which happen after death but before Judgement Day.   If you want to read about Judgement Day, flip to chapter 46 in that linked book.

Actualjy I meant someone who had heard the good news and just decided it wasn't their cup of tea but still lived as a  good person 

[Jimmy Tucker]

8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Wouldn't that FACT kinda quash your theory about it "not really being a choice"?

Well seemingly.  I'm not saying the choice isn't there but if one choice leads to everlasting whatever... Darkness or misery or destruction or being cutoff from your loved ones eternally can it really be categorized as a true choice? 

[Jane_Doe]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Actualjy I meant someone who had heard the good news and just decided it wasn't their cup of tea but still lived as a  good person 

So, you're asking about somebody who hears about Christ fully, and then choose to reject Him?  Then that is Telestrail glory: aka happiness beyond each of our wildest dreams/comprehension.  It is much less then those who received Christ, 

More on this: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.81-90%2C98-106%2C109-12?lang=eng#80 

3 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Well seemingly.  I'm not saying the choice isn't there but if one choice leads to everlasting whatever... Darkness or misery or destruction or being cutoff from your loved ones eternally can it really be categorized as a true choice? 

LDS only believe in eternal darkness for Judas type people: those that were 100% with Christ, had a undeniable testimony, then betrayed it. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Jimmy Tucker]

7 hours ago, Vort said:

Can I choose not to breathe oxygen? Can I choose not to drink liquids any more? Yes, actually, I can choose either of those things, but the results will be suboptimal.

God is life. Sure, we can choose to ignore God and live without him, just as we can choose to not breathe oxygen.

To make one or two possibly unwarranted assumptions, I would suggest that your thinking on this issue is incomplete. Badly incomplete. Incomplete to the point that what you're suggesting doesn't even make sense, just as it would not make sense for us to seek to emancipate ourselves from the need for oxygen. I suspect your understanding of God and our relationship to him is deficient.

Well you maybe correct.. That's why I posted this.. The last sentence of my post said... Can someone help me see this from a different view... so I'm soliciting advice because my view is perhaps defecient  like you said 

However youre not making sense either.. Who in their right mind would choose to stop breathing? This is your analogy? And yet it is exactly the same concept I brought up... You can choose to breathe or not to.. But when one choice results in death it's not really a true choice is it.  thank you for making my point. 

[Jimmy Tucker]

12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

So, you're asking about somebody who hears about Christ fully, and then choose to reject Him?  Then that is Telestrail glory: aka happiness beyond each of our wildest dreams/comprehension.  It is much less then those who received Christ, 

More on this: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.81-90%2C98-106%2C109-12?lang=eng#80 

LDS only believe in eternal darkness for Judas type people: those that were 100% with Christ, had a undeniable testimony, then betrayed it. 

So apostasy basically 

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

So apostasy basically 

Not just apostasy----  >99% of (unrepentant) apostates receive Telestrail glory.   Just those who knew BEYOND any shadow of a doubt that Christ was/is the Savior receive eternal darkness.  We're talking super-apostle level here.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[zil]

27 minutes ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Well seemingly.  I'm not saying the choice isn't there but if one choice leads to everlasting whatever... Darkness or misery or destruction or being cutoff from your loved ones eternally can it really be categorized as a true choice? 

First of all, you're asking us to make the kind of judgement that is reserved for the Savior.  It's reserved for him because instead of knowing a sentence or two about the individual being judged, he knows everything there is to know about the person; their chances; their thoughts, feelings, desires, words, actions; their surroundings; the weather throughout their lives; the cracks they stepped on; etc.

That said, sure it's a choice: if you love your "loved ones", then you can choose to spend eternity with them; if you actually despise them, well, you're free to choose to go another way.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Not just apostasy----  >99% of (unrepentant) apostates receive Telestrail glory.   Just those who knew BEYOND any shadow of a doubt that Christ was/is the Savior receive eternal darkness.  We're talking super-apostle level here.

I imagine those apostates who leave because they honestly believe a different religion is more correct and continue leading upright lives would qualify for far higher than telestial glory - more like terrestrial glory (or who knows, maybe even higher in some cases).

Edited February 9, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[anatess2]

12 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Actualjy I meant someone who had heard the good news and just decided it wasn't their cup of tea but still lived as a  good person 

 

12 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS only believe in eternal darkness for Judas type people: those that were 100% with Christ, had a undeniable testimony, then betrayed it. 

 

12 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Not just apostasy----  >99% of (unrepentant) apostates receive Telestrail glory.   Just those who knew BEYOND any shadow of a doubt that Christ was/is the Savior receive eternal darkness.  We're talking super-apostle level here.

Being cast to Outer Darkness means you have received Revelation that Jesus is the Christ.  I'd like to refer you to this scripture:

Matthew 16:

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

As you can see in these scriptures, the "People" have not progressed in their learning to know who the Son of Man truly is, they have not received that revelation that Jesus is the Son of God..  Simon on the other hand, has progressed farther in his knowledge as to have received revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.  This revelation is not something you get out of scriptures or prophets or Sunday School.  This revelation is only revealed to us by the Father in heaven.

I disagree with Jane_Doe that this is for super-apostle levels only.  Eventually, we will all receive this revelation that Jesus is the Son of God - if not in mortality, then in the spirit world before the Final Judgment.

Now, in scripture, Peter who has received revelation that Jesus is the Son of God denied Christ 3 times.  Flat out denied him.  Yet, he did not get cast out to Outer Darkness.  That is because his heart did not truly deny Christ, his fear of death led him to it.  His free agency was compromised.  He was able to get back to Christ through repentance and he continued to fulfill his calling in the service of God.

To reject Christ is to fully reject Christ.  This is not - "I'm an atheist, I don't believe there's a God".  An atheist simply doesn't have knowledge yet.  This is God revealing to you that Jesus is the Christ and then you respond with - Yes, I know he's the Christ and I hate him.

 

 

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Are you saying if someone is baptized by another church it is invalid? Only the LDS have the authority to perform a righteous dunking? 

Performing a baptism with Priesthood Authority is a righteous baptism.  Performing a baptism without the proper Priesthood Authority is just getting wet.

We believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only Church on earth today who has this Priesthood Authority.  The Catholics (all branches - Roman, Greek, etc.etc.)  believe they have Priesthood Authority as they claim that the Apostolic Authority of Peter was passed down to the Catholic Bishops.  Some Protestants also claim the same authority as the Protestant roots is Catholic.  Some Protestants don't believe in the need for Priesthood Authority.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Apostolic Authority did not confer to Bishops and, therefore, Priesthood Authority was lost not too long after the death of the last Apostle (presumed to be John the Revelator) and was restored by Christ through Peter, James, and John onto Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

 

[Vort]

14 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

However youre not making sense either.. Who in their right mind would choose to stop breathing?

Indeed. Who in their right mind would cut themselves off from their very source of life? Who in their right mind would possibly walk away from the best, purest, kindest, most intelligent Being in existence, the literal source of life both in body and spirit? Who in their right mind would tell such a being, "Look, thanks, but I'm just not really into hanging out with you"? Doesn't make a lick of sense.

14 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

This is your analogy?

Yep. Pretty good one, huh?

14 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

And yet it is exactly the same concept I brought up... You can choose to breathe or not to.. But when one choice results in death it's not really a true choice is it.

Sure it is. A surprising number of people choose death over life. Because, you see, death is in vogue. All the cool kids are into death. Death means you get power over others. Death means you indulge your desires. Death means lots of sex -- not the kind of sex that ennobles you and deepens your spirit, more the opposite. But hey, sex! Death is doing whatever you want, no matter how destructive. Ultimately, death is hollow nothingness. Some people find a sort of peace in that oblivion, and they embrace the void.

In contrast, life can be painful and annoying. Life is stretching. Life is growth and adaptation. Life is walking through a field of nettles. Life is taking the uncomfortable and painful along with the beautiful. And some people just really, truly, deeply don't have much of a taste for life. They walk away from it, because it hurts their eyes.

Do not be deceived. Nihilism is a very real thing, visible all around us.

[Vort]

14 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Just those who knew BEYOND any shadow of a doubt that Christ was/is the Savior receive eternal darkness.  We're talking super-apostle level here.

I don't believe this. I think those who consciously and consistently reject light are, by definition, perdition. I do not think it means that you have God-like levels of knowledge that you then betray. It just means that you reject the light. When you stand before God -- and you will stand before God -- you will have one of two reactions: You will rejoice in his presence and embrace him in spirit, or you will recoil in horror and seek to hide yourself in any way possible. In his mercy, God has prepared a kingdom for those in the latter camp, where they can remain as far as possible from God's light.

[Vort]

On 2/8/2018 at 3:26 AM, Jimmy Tucker said:

And when we sign a contract with baptism it's nothing like a sports contract.. We can break ours at any time.. Anytime we want to we can stand-up and walk right out of any church and into another and can't be sued or forced to come back.  because it's not a real tangible contract.

You are mistaken. It's very real. The analogy holds up well. The football player cannot walk away from his contract to be an agent for someone and still expect the reward (salary). Not in the NFL. He's free to go play for the WFL, or the QFL, or the IFL, or some other league.

Of course, serving God is not playing football. God does not have various teams that compete against each other. Such is the opposite of the order of heaven. But the idea of agency is very much true. You can use your agency to represent Jesus Christ. If you take that path, you sign the baptismal contract, then you start working. You will make lots of mistakes and get lots of help. You will get the chance to forgive those on the team who do you wrong, and you will have cause to ask forgiveness from other team members for your own wrongdoing.

But if you betray the covenant and break the contract, do not expect the salary. If you like, you can go play for another league and receive their salary. But remember, the wage of sin is death.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't believe this. I think those who consciously and consistently reject light are, by definition, perdition. I do not think it means that you have God-like levels of knowledge that you then betray. It just means that you reject the light. When you stand before God -- and you will stand before God -- you will have one of two reactions: You will rejoice in his presence and embrace him in spirit, or you will recoil in horror and seek to hide yourself in any way possible. In his mercy, God has prepared a kingdom for those in the latter camp, where they can remain as far as possible from God's light.

So do you think there are many people throughout history who have become sons of perdition?

While I would personally guess that maybe five people throughout history actually managed to deny the Holy Ghost (I would guess Cain, Judas, and maybe three others), I know that Bruce R. McConkie did once say that many anti-Mormons who had once been Latter-Day Saints may have committed this sin.  

[Vort]

17 hours ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Are you saying if someone is baptized by another church it is invalid? Only the LDS have the authority to perform a righteous dunking? 

Yes to both. Only those with the authority of God (a.k.a Priesthood) can officiate covenants in God's name that have any eternal standing before God.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, DoctorLemon said:

So do you think there are many people throughout history who have become sons of perdition?

I do not know what "many" means in this context, and even if I did, I couldn't answer. Thousands? For sure. Billions? Probably not. 10%? I seriously doubt it. 1%? I don't know.

[Guest]

On 2/8/2018 at 7:59 PM, Jimmy Tucker said:

Well seemingly.  I'm not saying the choice isn't there but if one choice leads to everlasting whatever... Darkness or misery or destruction or being cutoff from your loved ones eternally can it really be categorized as a true choice? 

Then you didn't pay attention to multiple posts on this thread which addressed that.  If you read them, you certainly didn't refute them.

[JohnsonJones]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:44 AM, anatess2 said:

 

 

Being cast to Outer Darkness means you have received Revelation that Jesus is the Christ.  I'd like to refer you to this scripture:

Matthew 16:

13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

As you can see in these scriptures, the "People" have not progressed in their learning to know who the Son of Man truly is, they have not received that revelation that Jesus is the Son of God..  Simon on the other hand, has progressed farther in his knowledge as to have received revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.  This revelation is not something you get out of scriptures or prophets or Sunday School.  This revelation is only revealed to us by the Father in heaven.

I disagree with Jane_Doe that this is for super-apostle levels only.  Eventually, we will all receive this revelation that Jesus is the Son of God - if not in mortality, then in the spirit world before the Final Judgment.

Now, in scripture, Peter who has received revelation that Jesus is the Son of God denied Christ 3 times.  Flat out denied him.  Yet, he did not get cast out to Outer Darkness.  That is because his heart did not truly deny Christ, his fear of death led him to it.  His free agency was compromised.  He was able to get back to Christ through repentance and he continued to fulfill his calling in the service of God.

To reject Christ is to fully reject Christ.  This is not - "I'm an atheist, I don't believe there's a God".  An atheist simply doesn't have knowledge yet.  This is God revealing to you that Jesus is the Christ and then you respond with - Yes, I know he's the Christ and I hate him.

 

 

More than that even.  To become a Son of Perdition it would be that you would contribute to his death anew if you had the chance...aka...choose 30 pieces of silver to turn him over to his enemies if you had the opportunity...even knowing what you know and realizing that he is personally a good friend of yours.

Edited February 10, 2018 by JohnsonJones
Calrification

[Jimmy Tucker]

On 2/9/2018 at 6:56 AM, anatess2 said:

Performing a baptism with Priesthood Authority is a righteous baptism.  Performing a baptism without the proper Priesthood Authority is just getting wet.

We believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only Church on earth today who has this Priesthood Authority.  The Catholics (all branches - Roman, Greek, etc.etc.)  believe they have Priesthood Authority as they claim that the Apostolic Authority of Peter was passed down to the Catholic Bishops.  Some Protestants also claim the same authority as the Protestant roots is Catholic.  Some Protestants don't believe in the need for Priesthood Authority.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that Apostolic Authority did not confer to Bishops and, therefore, Priesthood Authority was lost not too long after the death of the last Apostle (presumed to be John the Revelator) and was restored by Christ through Peter, James, and John onto Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.

 

Ok you believe. And as you stated other churches believe the same.. But there is only 1 truth.. So what makes you believe it's LDS

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Ok you believe. And as you stated other churches believe the same.. But there is only 1 truth.. So what makes you believe it's LDS

We believe that we've been touched by the Holy Ghost who has confirmed to us the truth of this set of teachings, its origin, the Book of Mormon, and all the common Christian teachings that we share with other faiths.  It is the Holy Ghost that guides.

If you have felt the Holy Ghost tell you the same, join us.  If you feel otherwise, you should do otherwise.

Part of the test of life is (as Jesus said) "My sheep know my voice."  We follow our inner voice.  If that inner voice is that of the Good Shepherd, then we are His sheep.  If we listen to another voice, then we are NOT one of His sheep.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

On 2/8/2018 at 5:46 AM, Jimmy Tucker said:

Haha for sure.. Man i have made some dumb decisions ... I guess we all have.. We must be somewhat logical though or God wouldn't leave the choice up to us would he? 

Yes and no.

As far as our logical portion, the Lord does take into account the level of knowledge we've been given in this life.  If we simply never learned some things, then we're not going to be held accountable for it as much as someone who really should have known better.

But for the most part, we are who we are.  Our knowledge may govern what we are responsible for.  But what we do know, we tend to make decisions based on who we are not on what we know.

How many times in your life has this happened?  You know something is wrong.  But your friends use logic to talk you into doing it anyway.  Yet, deep down, you still know it's wrong.

On 2/8/2018 at 7:59 PM, Jimmy Tucker said:

Well seemingly.  I'm not saying the choice isn't there but if one choice leads to everlasting whatever... Darkness or misery or destruction or being cutoff from your loved ones eternally can it really be categorized as a true choice? 

What is your meaning of "a true choice"?  Any choice is still a choice. The choice exists.  Therefore it is true.

You have to remember that the Lord WANTS us to choose the right.  He wants to make it REALLY easy to choose the right.  Why wouldn't the opposite choice be one that would naturally be undesirable?

I remember a salesman telling me

Quote

You can get this chord that only transfers data for $10.  Or you can get this chord that does data transfer AND it charges your battery fro $8.  Which one would you like?

Uhmm... I'm going to go for the $8 one.

Good choice.

It's also another part of the test of this life to be able to see with a spiritual eye that tells us that these outcomes are indeed real.  Those who cannot/will not see with the spiritual eye are screened out.

And there is also the issue of spiritual ability.  Can we actually be obedient? Even if we WANT to do what is right, you know the old saying:

"The spirit is willing.  But the flesh is weak."

Edited February 13, 2018 by Guest

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Tucker said:

Ok you believe. And as you stated other churches believe the same.. But there is only 1 truth.. So what makes you believe it's LDS

The same way I believe there is a God.  The same way I believe Jesus is the Son of God.... these things are not something one can prove or even that I can prove.  These things are something I go on my knees for and ask God.

[Jimmy Tucker]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

We believe that we've been touched by the Holy Ghost who has confirmed to us the truth of this set of teachings, its origin, the Book of Mormon, and all the common Christian teachings that we share with other faiths.  It is the Holy Ghost that guides.

If you have felt the Holy Ghost tell you the same, join us.  If you feel otherwise, you should do otherwise.

Part of the test of life is (as Jesus said) "My sheep know my voice."  We follow our inner voice.  If that inner voice is that of the Good Shepherd, then we are His sheep.  If we listen to another voice, then we are NOT one of His sheep.

Understood... Every other religion would answer the same way though.. 

[Jimmy Tucker]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Yes and no.

As far as our logical portion, the Lord does take into account the level of knowledge we've been given in this life.  If we simply never learned some things, then we're not going to be held accountable for it as much as someone who really should have known better.

But for the most part, we are who we are.  Our knowledge may govern what we are responsible for.  But what we do know, we tend to make decisions based on who we are not on what we know.

How many times in your life has this happened?  You know something is wrong.  But your friends use logic to talk you into doing it anyway.  Yet, deep down, you still know it's wrong.

What is your meaning of "a true choice"?  Any choice is still a choice. The choice exists.  Therefore it is true.

You have to remember that the Lord WANTS us to choose the right.  He wants to make it REALLY easy to choose the right.  Why wouldn't the opposite choice be one that would naturally be undesirable?

I remember a salesman telling me

It's also another part of the test of this life to be able to see with a spiritual eye that tells us that these outcomes are indeed real.  Those who cannot/will not see with the spiritual eye are screened out.

And there is also the issue of spiritual ability.  Can we actually be obedient? Even if we WANT to do what is right, you know the old saying:

"The spirit is willing.  But the flesh is weak."

Thank you that helped me understand somewhat better