Getting lost in Statistics in retaining membership


Rob Osborn
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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 3:49 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Interesting that just less than a year ago I was Scout master in my ward, totally gung-ho pushing all alike to get their eagle. Then, a series of events took place that pretty much changed everything. Our stake started a program practice that lasted a few months taking the place of mutual, then came Scout camp and the staff at camp was less than satisfactory. I was made YM president. Then a week later our ward boundaries changed and our youth numbers tripled overnight. Comvine with all this the new YM program and our scout program suddenly isnt the focus anymore- no longer the activity arm of the priesthood. It left me wondering and in my training I learned why. Youth, especially YM, are not prepared to go out into the world with a firm testimony of Jesus Christ, nor able to fulfill their priesthood duties nor are prepared for their divine roles as husbands and fathers. The scout program doesnt really address those things directly. At scout camp this last summer I noted this in that nothing they do at camp, from the BSA side, prepares them in tge spiritual side in fulfilling priesthood duties, building their testimony in Jesus Christ, nor helps them in preparing them fir their divine roles as husbands and fathers. The leaders themselves can use the BSA program in ways to relate them to these things even teaching them life skills but the truth is the BSA program doesnt teach boys how to fast and pray, how to build faith in Jesus Christ, how to treat their future children and spouse, etc.

I am still very much enthused to push scouts for those who want to earn their eagle but no longer do I have the drive to use the BSA program to run or take the place of our youth programs. And all that in less than a year! Im interested to see what changes are next as tge churches teaching programs for the youth are rapidly changing to counter the destruction of the family.

Actually, the scout program wasn't dropped. 

It used to be the their was only the Boy Scouts.  The Boy Scouts then came out with the Explorer program (different that what it is now).  The LDS church had explorers for a while, but had made a request with the Boy Scouts to develop a program specifically centered on the LDS Young Men's program ideas.

Part of this was the development of the Varsity and Venture programs.  Varsity Scouts almost soley existed for the LDS church.  These two programs were made to parallel the Young Men's program...and IF someone actually DID the Young Men's program for Teachers and Priests...they would automatically be eligible for at least half the badges (or, if taken very seriously, all the badges).

What the LDS church has found is that no one was using these programs anyways.  That meant that the LDS church was paying over 25 million a year, just in rosters and other items, for a young men's program ALMOST NO ONE was using anyways.  You pile on other costs and the LDS church was paying over 50 million or more for a program NO ONE was really using.

If people do not follow the LDS leaders in this...then it is time to cut it out and try to focus more on the basics. 

We saw this same problem with the Religious Badge that Boys could get via the Boy Scouts.  The elements of this Badge, Duty to God, are still in the Young Men's program. 

However, the numbers of young men getting this badge were ALSO abysmal.  The problem...NO ONE is doing the Young Men's program to begin with.  They think that if they just have fun activities and other items, rather than the focus that Duty to God, or Varsity Scouts, or Venture Scouts has...everyone will turn out fine.

The problem...No One did this program in the US...and after the Youth graduated High School...their attendance fell to 20%-25%.

The thing is then to try to emphasize that there IS a program...and it is actually still basically the same program...but without the costs being paid to the boy Scouts of America and thus without the ranks that no one was getting anyways. 

The question is if, even with the renewed focus trying to tell Leaders ideas of what to do, whether anyone out there is even paying attention to the Leaders of the LDS church in regards to the Young Men (Young Women seem to pay more attention, and there is better retention with them, though it still is not stellar, it IS far better enough to cause a difficulty in that worthy young adult women who are active in the church are outnumbering young adult men.  There are literally NOT enough young adult men for every young adult women to be eternally married to at this point).

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55 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Actually, the scout program wasn't dropped. 

It used to be the their was only the Boy Scouts.  The Boy Scouts then came out with the Explorer program (different that what it is now).  The LDS church had explorers for a while, but had made a request with the Boy Scouts to develop a program specifically centered on the LDS Young Men's program ideas.

Part of this was the development of the Varsity and Venture programs.  Varsity Scouts almost soley existed for the LDS church.  These two programs were made to parallel the Young Men's program...and IF someone actually DID the Young Men's program for Teachers and Priests...they would automatically be eligible for at least half the badges (or, if taken very seriously, all the badges).

What the LDS church has found is that no one was using these programs anyways.  That meant that the LDS church was paying over 25 million a year, just in rosters and other items, for a young men's program ALMOST NO ONE was using anyways.  You pile on other costs and the LDS church was paying over 50 million or more for a program NO ONE was really using.

If people do not follow the LDS leaders in this...then it is time to cut it out and try to focus more on the basics. 

We saw this same problem with the Religious Badge that Boys could get via the Boy Scouts.  The elements of this Badge, Duty to God, are still in the Young Men's program. 

However, the numbers of young men getting this badge were ALSO abysmal.  The problem...NO ONE is doing the Young Men's program to begin with.  They think that if they just have fun activities and other items, rather than the focus that Duty to God, or Varsity Scouts, or Venture Scouts has...everyone will turn out fine.

The problem...No One did this program in the US...and after the Youth graduated High School...their attendance fell to 20%-25%.

The thing is then to try to emphasize that there IS a program...and it is actually still basically the same program...but without the costs being paid to the boy Scouts of America and thus without the ranks that no one was getting anyways. 

The question is if, even with the renewed focus trying to tell Leaders ideas of what to do, whether anyone out there is even paying attention to the Leaders of the LDS church in regards to the Young Men (Young Women seem to pay more attention, and there is better retention with them, though it still is not stellar, it IS far better enough to cause a difficulty in that worthy young adult women who are active in the church are outnumbering young adult men.  There are literally NOT enough young adult men for every young adult women to be eternally married to at this point).

Ive been working in the YM program for the better part of 20 years (a few years off within that span) and I really have felt a shift in the past year. I feel more changes are coming. The programs we had were failing and current ones need more tuning. I have a hard time seeing how scouts within the church for YM are going to be relevant going forward. Its just gonna lose steam going forward. So few boys are getting their eagle before turning 14 and now the focus is the Duty to God program and the new activity program that pretty much is just a basic outline of doing almost anything. I know that in our YM program we are doing a lot more activities together and building strength and unity as an entire YM body. The deacons quorum still do scouts twice a month but clearly the focus isnt on scouts anymore even for them. Our stake is doing a YM encampment that will take place of both scout camp and high adventure this year. 

I personally have prayed a lot about it to know Gods will for our wards YM program and the answer over and over again is to build unity in quorums and unity as a YM body all together. So, once a month we have a combined YM activity. I like where our program is going and I can see the wisdom of connecting all the YM together. It definitely requires more presidency meetings to correlate activities and discuss all the details and fine tune the problem areas but I can see great potential in getting a broader age of YM working together more frequently. 

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On 2/6/2018 at 10:28 PM, bytebear said:

When I went on my mission some 30 years ago, the big shocker i had was that some missionaries were just there to please their parents or because they thought they couldn't get a wife if they didn't go.  I was shocked that someone would dedicate two years of their life on such shallow reasons.

On 2/7/2018 at 11:42 AM, NeuroTypical said:

I once met a missionary who flat out admitted he hadn't even really thought about whether God existed or not.  He was there, he said, because it was just expected of him since birth.  I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's not one of the 71% still active in his '40's.

On 2/7/2018 at 1:57 PM, anatess2 said:

And I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he found God on his mission.

I can only offer three data points that I knew personally.

1) My oldest brother never really had a testimony.  And he's gay to boot.  But he went on a mission because it was expected of him.  He went, served faithfully.  And he came back and was very active for many years.  But eventually his homosexuality won.  He left the Church and used many anti-Mormon talking points to justify it.  Of course, it had nothing to do with him being gay...  It was then that I knew that he actually had a testimony.  One does not "make up" reasons to leave if they simply didn't believe it.

2) My next oldest brother didn't have a testimony either.  But he went because it was expected of him.  He had a MIGHTY CHANGE come over him during his mission.  He even told my parents to sell off his car that he built from scratch (a 60s or 70s model Camaro).  He'd spent years building it from parts he found in a junk yard and pouring all his extra cash on purchasing new parts he simply couldn't find in the junkyard.  It was his dream car.  He wanted it gone because he realized that this was not the path he wanted his life to go down anymore.  He's still quite active today (in his sixties).

3) A family in my ward really wanted their son to go on a mission.  This case was so bad that the parents bribed him.  They would buy him a Porche when he returned home from his mission.  The guy not only did not have a testimony, but he really had no charity for anyone that I had ever seen him interact with -- even his friends.  He went.  He came back after about two months after the MTC because they didn't have some modern convenience.  I think it was some type of shampoo that he liked.  It was just too torturous.  He returned and asked for the Porche.  He was actually shocked when his parents reminded him that he didn't complete his mission.  He went completely inactive after that.  I have no idea what has happened to him since.

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These stories tell me that too many parents are hoping missions will change their kids.  Given all the resources we have.  YM, YW, Seminary, etc., I think we must be doing something wrong if kids don't have at least enough of a testimony to want to go on their missions.  Yes, you can build a testimony, and you should use the experience to grow both spiritually and temporally.  I personally learned not to be afraid of low income communities after serving in some of the poorest parts of Boston.   A mission teaches you so much more than just the gospel.  It teaches you to love people you never knew existed, often times, having no opportunity to meet them in such a setting again.  That and it's the one opportunity to be overtly bold in your proclamation of the gospel.  No other time in your life are you totally free and open to just proclaim the gospel.  Everyone already knows who you are (white shirt and name tag kind of gives it away).   Not so when you reenter life.  What an opportunity!

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17 minutes ago, bytebear said:

These stories tell me that too many parents are hoping missions will change their kids.  Given all the resources we have.  YM, YW, Seminary, etc., I think we must be doing something wrong if kids don't have at least enough of a testimony to want to go on their missions.  

I will say in my case I was never interested in going on a mission. I always wanted to go into the military and that is what I did.

Things may have been different had my father not been in the callings he had. He had significant church jobs ( Without saying what jobs they were ill just say it was not unusual to have GA s at our home. I met most of them 30-40 yrs ago) which required him to pretty much be gone to church meetings any time he wasn't at work or if it was Monday eve. This was my entire life...literally up until the time I went into the military. I always thought yea screw that being gone all your waking hours every day for two decades. Unfortunately my male mentor besides my dad was the one i looked up to more in terms of just general stuff.. I do not  blame him because he is a very righteous man and likely believed he was doing the right thing regardless of the expense it was to his family. After all, he was called to serve. I remember my mom being alone all the time except after he came home late at night. It was endless.  Later on we had a very good relationship for the rest of his life as he was around to be visited with and do things. It wasn't that we had a bad relationship, but it is hard to have one when they are not there for 18 yrs straight. 

Add to that I lived in a force fed religious environment so there was never a choice as to what I was going to do...I suppose the military was my way of finally having a choice right or wrong.

Anyway, there are many reasons kids don't go on missions. Testimony is only one aspect. I may have gone on one if I thought church service was not as punishing and exhausting as what I was watching. It was not the life i wanted at the time. 

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