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It is worrisome that many posts are discussing many peripheral aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ and yet serious doctrines are often propagated by opinions and lack the strength of the words of Christ. We live in a day when we are highly distracted by the world and there is not enough attention given to the Doctrine of Christ. Is there truly anything more important than His doctrine? 

THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, INVITATION AND MEANS WHEREBY ALL THAT ARE 'JUST AND TRUE' SONS OR DAUGHTERS OF JESUS CHRIST WILL LITERALLY RECEIVE HIM WHILE IN MORTALITY BY BEING A PERSONAL WITNESS OF THE MARKS OF HIS ATONEMENT, EXPERIENCE HIS GLORY, AND BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY HIM IN HIS PRESENCE.

Wow! Yes, every person is expected to actually receive the Savior, Jesus Christ while in mortality as part of one's personal ascension process.

The good news is that any person can learn, understand, believe and live the Doctrine of Christ on their own. It is a personal journey of each and every person. Don't take anyone else's word for it--learn it directly from the Lord through His words and His spirit. Start your journey in The Doctrine of Christ Study Guide at www.ProjectDoctrineOfChrist.com.

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I flipped through it for a minute.  Came to this quote:

"The idea that a person can receive the Savior, Jesus Christ, in mortality can be a new concept to some. I admit, that’s fair, and there’s nothing wrong with you if you’re studying this for the first time or coming to a realization of it no matter how old or young you might be. It’s certainly not a subject that we discuss openly in the LDS church even though it has been openly taught by church leaders since Joseph Smith."  https://projectdoctrineofchrist.com/2018/01/31/perspective-matters-the-right-perspective-is-everything/

???   I last talked about that in a LDS context maybe 30 minutes ago (if that).   ???  

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On 2/10/2018 at 3:04 PM, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

It is worrisome that many posts are discussing many peripheral aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ and yet serious doctrines are often propagated by opinions and lack the strength of the words of Christ. We live in a day when we are highly distracted by the world and there is not enough attention given to the Doctrine of Christ. Is there truly anything more important than His doctrine? 

THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, INVITATION AND MEANS WHEREBY ALL THAT ARE 'JUST AND TRUE' SONS OR DAUGHTERS OF JESUS CHRIST WILL LITERALLY RECEIVE HIM WHILE IN MORTALITY BY BEING A PERSONAL WITNESS OF THE MARKS OF HIS ATONEMENT, EXPERIENCE HIS GLORY, AND BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY HIM IN HIS PRESENCE.

Wow! Yes, every person is expected to actually receive the Savior, Jesus Christ while in mortality as part of one's personal ascension process.

The good news is that any person can learn, understand, believe and live the Doctrine of Christ on their own. It is a personal journey of each and every person. Don't take anyone else's word for it--learn it directly from the Lord through His words and His spirit. Start your journey in The Doctrine of Christ Study Guide at www.ProjectDoctrineOfChrist.com.

 

 

 

 

[Excerpt taken from the complimentary Doctrine of Christ Study Guide at www.ProjectDoctrineOfChrist.com]

 

A SERVANT SHOULD SEEK TO RECEIVE THE MASTER, JESUS CHRIST, THE SAVIOR, HIMSELF (SECOND COMFORTER)

  • (Isa. 55:6-7)...Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

  • (Amos 5:6,8)...Seek the Lord, and ye shall live...Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion...The Lord is his name.

  • (Zeph. 2:3)...Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness.

  • (1 Chronicles 16:10-11)... Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the Lord. Seek the Lord and his strength, seek his face continually.

  • (2 Chronicles 15:12-15...And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

  • (Jeremiah 50:4-5)...they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the Lord their God...and let us join ourselves to the Lord in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.

  • (D&C 39:3-5,10-11,18; 84:35-37; 133:61-67; 132:23-25)...Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on my name, and you shall receive my Spirit, and a blessing so great as you never have known...And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord; For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me; And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

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On 2/10/2018 at 5:04 PM, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, INVITATION AND MEANS WHEREBY ALL THAT ARE 'JUST AND TRUE' SONS OR DAUGHTERS OF JESUS CHRIST WILL LITERALLY RECEIVE HIM WHILE IN MORTALITY BY BEING A PERSONAL WITNESS OF THE MARKS OF HIS ATONEMENT, EXPERIENCE HIS GLORY, AND BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY HIM IN HIS PRESENCE.

You don't think this is one of "many peripheral aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ"? 

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On 2/10/2018 at 4:04 PM, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Start your journey in The Doctrine of Christ Study Guide at www.ProjectDoctrineOfChrist.com.

13 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

<clipped duplicate quote>

[Excerpt taken from the complimentary Doctrine of Christ Study Guide at www.ProjectDoctrineOfChrist.com]

Are you just using this forum to advertise your website? It seems to be a trend lately.  Well, I guess this is the sub-forum to do it in.

Yup, I read it.  And?  I just don't like the tone of the website.  It sounds like you're sharing "the great secret" that no one else knows about.  It's got the feel of a late night commercial on UFOs.  And I don't respond well to the pedagogical approach.

I'm wondering if you can respond to any of these posts without linking or mentioning the site again.

Edited by Guest

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Are you just using this forum to advertise your website? It seems to be a trend lately.  Well, I guess this is the sub-forum to do it in.

Yup, I read it.  And?  I just don't like the tone of the website.  It sounds like you're sharing "the great secret" that no one else knows about.  It's got the feel of a late night commercial on UFOs.  And I don't respond well to the pedagogical approach.

I'm wondering if you can respond to any of these posts without linking or mentioning the site again.

Sorry if you feel that way. Apologies, as that was not my intent. My intent is not to necessarily promote the website. After all, there's nothing for me to gain. There's no monetary value to be gained and the site is anonymous to keep the focus off of the messenger and on the message. If anything, the website is only a vehicle to arrive at the Study Guides. The Study Guides are "a" personal resource (one of many I assume that exists) that helps people start a spiritual journey that will lead to the actual presence of the Lord. A spiritual journey for those that have ears to hear and eyes to see. The blog posts are only supplements to the Study Guides. This explanation is outlined in the "About" section of the website. 

If it "sounds like I am sharing 'the great secret' that no one else knows about" I naturally assume that you are fully aware ("in the know") of the Doctrine of Christ and are on this spiritual journey or have fulfilled that spiritual journey to receive the Savior, Jesus Christ, in mortality. If people are "in the know" and The Doctrine of Christ is not a secret as you claim, then I am simply curious why we are not discussing it more than we are. Why are people not sharing their experiences and encouraging others to receive the Savior, Jesus Christ? After all, it is the "plan of salvation" that Moses refers to (Moses 6:59-62).

My personal opinion is that we are very comfortable, to the point of prideful, as members of the LDS church thinking that we have much more than we actually have. When in reality, we don't have as much as we think we have and we therefore are consumed or distracted by extraneous or peripheral things associated with church membership or culture. This is the gospel--the "good news"--that the Savior is asking and patiently waiting for us to seek His face and His presence. If people are "in the know", have already received or fulfilled the Doctrine of Christ then do as Moses encourages "teach it to others" and encourage others to start their journey to the presence of the Lord. And if you are one of those that is "in the know" of the Doctrine of Christ and somewhere on that spiritual journey then this post to encourage anyone to realize our "awful situation" was probably not for you.

I am not smart enough to know what "pedagogical" is, sorry.

Always open to discussing the great blessings and opportunities available in and through "the gospel." MormonHub seems like a good platform for discussing this true principle, sharing it "out loud" and helping to create awareness of "a" resource (again, one of many I am sure) for learning more about the Doctrine of Christ.

All glory to the Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

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(I'm hoping this is constructive criticism)

Honestly, I didn't like the tone of the site either. Don't get me wrong- I'm all for encouraging people to come closer to Christ.  But quotes like:  "It’s certainly not a subject that we discuss openly in the LDS church even though it has been openly taught by church leaders since Joseph Smith." ...  That's just inaccurate and feels more like a underhanded attack at the LDS faith.  Attacking peoples faiths is the OPPOSITE of encouraging people to come to Christ (I would say this for people attacking Catholic, Muslim, Hindu or any other faith as well).

I feel like focusing more on the Savior would really help your site. 

Edited by Jane_Doe

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I clicked on the link to the site, and after looking it over quickly came to one question:  Is this type of site encouraged, tolerated, or discouraged in LDS circles? In the Evangelical realm there are many such sites, some authored by individuals, some by small groups, some by denominations. They offer free Bible studies, opportunities to "go deeper," etc. They are not discouraged, but as a pastor, I would tell my members to use great discernment. In my role as chaplain I recently came upon a site offering free correspondence courses (Bible) to inmates. The program was touted as "accredited." As I examined the site I found that the accreditor was a non-governmental organization, and that the author was a single individual, who's main credential was his work as assistant principal at a secondary school. It does not mean that the material was completely bogus, and the site claimed that no teachings conflicted with any Evangelical denomination or doctrine. However, I told the person who brought it to my attention, "It probably won't hurt, it might do you some good, but I'm not going to actively promote it."

So how are sites like @Project Doctrine of Christ's generally handled in LDS circles?

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48 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I clicked on the link to the site, and after looking it over quickly came to one question:  Is this type of site encouraged, tolerated, or discouraged in LDS circles? In the Evangelical realm there are many such sites, some authored by individuals, some by small groups, some by denominations. They offer free Bible studies, opportunities to "go deeper," etc. They are not discouraged, but as a pastor, I would tell my members to use great discernment. In my role as chaplain I recently came upon a site offering free correspondence courses (Bible) to inmates. The program was touted as "accredited." As I examined the site I found that the accreditor was a non-governmental organization, and that the author was a single individual, who's main credential was his work as assistant principal at a secondary school. It does not mean that the material was completely bogus, and the site claimed that no teachings conflicted with any Evangelical denomination or doctrine. However, I told the person who brought it to my attention, "It probably won't hurt, it might do you some good, but I'm not going to actively promote it."

So how are sites like @Project Doctrine of Christ's generally handled in LDS circles?

Well, this site that the OP links to is pretty much the same.  I'm really not sure "how things are handled..."  But the feeling of the site is just plain not right.

Here's my analysis (my opinion only):

1) We are always free to share our opinions. 
2) We're free to share our interpretations of scriptures and prophetic statements as well as matters of Church declarations, policies, etc.  (Askgramps is one such site devoted almost entirely to this).
3) We are also encouraged to be missionaries, and therefore share our beliefs with non-members and those weak in the faith.
4) And we can also have discussions where we can debate and so forth.
5) And, of course, apologetics exercises are always welcome. (Gramps also does this).

The problem with the site linked in the OP is that it is (not explicitly, but in effect) telling people that the Church is keeping information from you and is holding you back.  Here is the information you're looking for. 

Basically, it is run by Snufferites.

Edited by Guest

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I have no issue with the doctrine of receiving the Second Comforter.  This is clearly taught as something to strive for - perhaps more accurately, as something that will happen in consequence of developing sufficient faith to do so (see Ether 3:19-20 and Ether 4:14, for example).  But the scriptures also accommodate (or don't condemn) those "who have not faith" (D&C 109:7 and D&C 88:118) or those who can "no more than desire to believe" (Alma 32:27).  And the feel I get from the posts here about this website is one of finding fault (as in: "the rest of you are insufficiently diligent in this area") rather than one of inviting.

But this:

On 2/10/2018 at 3:04 PM, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, INVITATION AND MEANS WHEREBY ALL THAT ARE 'JUST AND TRUE' SONS OR DAUGHTERS OF JESUS CHRIST WILL LITERALLY RECEIVE HIM WHILE IN MORTALITY BY BEING A PERSONAL WITNESS OF THE MARKS OF HIS ATONEMENT, EXPERIENCE HIS GLORY, AND BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY HIM IN HIS PRESENCE.

...does not seem to perfectly align with this:

Quote

3 Nephi 11

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

See also: 2 Nephi 31 and 32 (which define "the doctrine of Christ" without requiring that in-person visit)

It is one thing to offer tools that are faithful and true to the teachings of scripture and the Church so that those for whom these tools "make sense" have another resource to help them along.  It is another thing to suggest that something is "the Doctrine of Christ", when scripture has already clearly defined "the Doctrine of Christ" and it does not necessarily include a personal, physical visit with the Savior in mortality.  Seems to me that what this website is talking about is actually the Second Comforter:

Quote

The Second Comforter is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. “When any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him” (D&C 88:3–4; 130:3; HC 3:381).

PS: Unrelated; look at that, a citation from the History of the Church.  It must be more official than I thought.

PPS: The personal letters copied into volume 3 could teach everyone how to write letters again.  Sigh.

Edited by zil

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24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Basically, it is run by Snufferites.

I vaguely remember references to this group in past posts, but can you/someone refresh my memory? Is this an off-shoot, or is it a group of LDS people who hold to some additional (though perhaps not contradictory) beliefs)?

To give an idea of what I am getting at, there are some "Catholics" who reject anything post-Vatican II. These would probably be considered an off-shoot, since they reject the recent and current popes. On the other hand, the Charismatic Renewal, within the Catholic Church, holds conferences, believes in experiences baptisms in the Holy Spirit, praying in tongues, speaking words of prophecy, etc. They are recognized by the church, and are allowed to practice their added beliefs, though their practices are not part of a church-wide change or embracing. So, where do the Snufferites fit?

Edited by prisonchaplain

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43 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I vaguely remember references to this group in past posts, but can you/someone refresh my memory?

The Snufferites are a group quasi-lead / quasi-idolize Denver Snuffer.  Snuffer was excommunicated from the Church several years ago for apostasy and his group is gone straight down the "believe whatever you want, it doesn't matter" path.  

43 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

 Is this an off-shoot, or is it a group of LDS people who hold to some additional (though perhaps not contradictory) beliefs)?

They're apostates. 

43 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

To give an idea of what I am getting at, there are some "Catholics" who reject anything post-Vatican II. These would probably be considered an off-shoot, since they reject the recent and current popes. On the other hand, the Charismatic Renewal, within the Catholic Church, holds conferences, believes in experiences baptisms in the Holy Spirit, praying in tongues, speaking words of prophecy, etc. They are recognized by the church, and are allowed to practice their added beliefs, though their practices are not part of a church-wide change or embracing. So, where do the Snufferites fit?

I see a lot of similarities with the anti-Vatican-II camp: they reject the prophets, teach things contrary to the prophets, and now have come up with their own line of authority.  

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1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

I vaguely remember references to this group in past posts, but can you/someone refresh my memory? Is this an off-shoot, or is it a group of LDS people who hold to some additional (though perhaps not contradictory) beliefs)?

To give an idea of what I am getting at, there are some "Catholics" who reject anything post-Vatican II. These would probably be considered an off-shoot, since they reject the recent and current popes. On the other hand, the Charismatic Renewal, within the Catholic Church, holds conferences, believes in experiences baptisms in the Holy Spirit, praying in tongues, speaking words of prophecy, etc. They are recognized by the church, and are allowed to practice their added beliefs, though their practices are not part of a church-wide change or embracing. So, where do the Snufferites fit?

As @Jane_Doe said, very similar.

From my perspective, many are not exactly "apostates" because some of them do actually still accept the current prophet as ordained of God (at least they say they do).  However, the single doctrine that unites them is what the OP incorrectly terms the "Doctrine of Christ."  

To keep things brief: We believe that some people can reach a very high level of obedience and oneness with God in this life which will allow us to have a personal theophany with Christ, Himself.  We do NOT term this the "Doctrine of Christ." But Snufferites do. (See @zil's post above).

We tend to believe that, while it is possible and attainable, most of us are simply not that righteous.  And the Prophets of later years have told us that essentially, to look so far off in the distance will cause us to trip over the obstacles right in front of us.  Yes, we keep such things in our hearts and minds as goals, but we often can't see clearly enough to see such a distant goal, when we're struggling with simple things like reading our scriptures faithfully every day or keeping our tempers down when apostates come posing as helpful fellow saints.

Edited by Guest

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Wow there is a lot to respond to here:

1. Project Doctrine of Christ is not associated with Denver Snuffer. It does not follow or intend to support him and his efforts. If a person has read the "About" information they would discover loyalties to the LDS church and leadership in their respective callings and assignments.

2. Appears to be an issue, from some, with the "tone" of some comments made on the site. For that, you have my sincere apologies. I hope that you will not let my personal flaws keep you from the substance and content that is presented in the Study Guides. The Study Guides speak for themselves. They are the words of the Lord in scripture. If someone has allowed my flawed tone keep them from even digging into the words of the Lord in scripture (Study Guides) then they have missed the point. I am not taking the comments personal about the tone, although I will sincerely apologize, but I will say that I would assume that the Pharisees did not appreciate the Savior's tone when He preached and certainly when He turned the tables over in the temple. The pharisees would probably tell us that Jesus' teaching didn't quite fit in the "pharisee box."

3. Per, "We believe that some people can reach a very high level of obedience and oneness with God in this life which will allow us to have a personal theophany with Christ, Himself. We do NOT term this the 'Doctrine of Christ'." The Study Guides were developed for this exact reason. Without being on the attack (which is not my intent here), humbly, you don't even know what is in the scriptures. Nephi teaches it in "plainness"--his words, not mine. 

4. Per the quoting of 3 Nephi, that is an incomplete study of the Doctrine of Christ. Thus, the exact reason for the Study Guides.

5. Per, "We tend to believe that, while it is possible and attainable, most of us are simply not that righteous.  And the Prophets of later years have told us that essentially, to look so far off in the distance will cause us to trip over the obstacles right in front of us.  Yes, we keep such things in our hearts and minds as goals, but we often can't see clearly enough to see such a distant goal, when we're struggling with simple things like reading our scriptures faithfully every day or keeping our tempers down when apostates come posing as helpful fellow saints." I keep having to say this, I guess I'll say it again, but this is the exact reason the Study Guides were created. To actually help people learn, understand, believe and live the Doctrine of Christ. There is actually an entire section dedicated to "Why Some Will Not Seek for this" and it includes the claims that "most of us are simply not that righteous." The Savior's words in the scriptures call it "unbelief." I also find it interesting that comments on this thread are commenting as if they are speaking on behalf of the LDS Church and the official position of the LDS church..."we believe...". If you have dismissed this truth, humbly, you are not aware of the historical teachings from the likes of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie, Russell M. Nelson, David A. Bednar, Neal A. Maxwell and others. Humbly, it might be a case of not knowing your own religion--certainly not what is found in the scriptures. Again, I am personally not trying to convince anyone. The Lord's words and His spirit do all the teaching. They are what they are. The Study Guide just points a person to the scriptures--His words--allowing His spirit to rest upon a person. By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things (Moroni 10:3-5). Interesting that people are actually dismissing the words of the Lord in the scriptures. I am trying to avoid quoting scriptures in my responses simply because they are already in the Study Guide.

It is hard to represent my personal desire, my heart and my humble sincerity through text. For that I am sorry and ask for forgiveness in my writing abilities. I am certain that if we were sitting together in the same room it would come across different. I probably didn't reply to everything for which I also apologize.

Humbly

 

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8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

1. Project Doctrine of Christ is not associated with Denver Snuffer. It does not follow or intend to support him and his efforts.

So, you're not associated with this ?

Capture.thumb.PNG.bd3cacffe63d942ba6adbbcaf59fa5b6.PNG

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

If a person has read the "About" information they would discover loyalties to the LDS church and leadership in their respective callings and assignments.

Yes, I read it, including the section you're referring to here.  Snufferites say the same thing.  Like I said, some of them do still support the current Prophet (Pres. Nelson today). I'm sure you do believe you're supporting the current Church leadership.  But where are the quotes?

You don't think I read your materials?  Let's see just how much I read.

Just look at your section on personal revelation.  It ALWAYS???? trumps other sources of truth?  The rest of the section then goes on to say that we really shouldn't pay attention to what the Prophet says.  Think of it.  One of the pillars that distinguishes us from all the sectarians, and you want to get rid of it. 

We have a living Prophet.  We have enough faithful Saints who don't give proper heed to the Prophet.  Now you want to say that he's not really necessary anyway.  Yes, I know what you're going to say. "It doesn't say that."  It may not explicitly.  But that is the eventual outcome of the philosophy you put forth in that section.

Do you still think I didn't read your materials?  It is BECAUSE I read your materials that I've made the assertion that you're Snufferites.  If you truly mean that you in no way support his efforts, then why are you saying the same things he's saying?

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

I would assume that the Pharisees did not appreciate the Savior's tone when He preached and certainly when He turned the tables over in the temple. The pharisees would probably tell us that Jesus' teaching didn't quite fit in the "pharisee box."

You are not Jesus.  And we are not Pharisees.  It's not about "fitting in the right box."  If you don't understand that, then you don't really understand what is wrong with your entire approach.

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

3. Per, "We believe that some people can reach a very high level of obedience and oneness with God in this life which will allow us to have a personal theophany with Christ, Himself. We do NOT term this the 'Doctrine of Christ'."

Then what are you referring to here?

Quote

THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST IS THE (MEANS WHEREBY ALL WILL) LITERALLY RECEIVE HIM WHILE IN MORTALITY BY BEING A PERSONAL WITNESS OF THE MARKS OF HIS ATONEMENT, EXPERIENCE HIS GLORY, AND BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY HIM IN HIS PRESENCE.

...

Contrary to tradition, it was never intended for the moment of mortal death to be the moment when the Lord would rend the veil.

And

Quote

It follows that everything stated by Elder Oliver Cowdery in his charge to the apostles could also be given as a charge to all elders. Every elder is entitled and expected to seek and obtain all the spiritual blessings of the gospel, including the crowning blessing of seeing the Lord face to face. (emphasis mine)

Sounds like the Second Comforter experience to me.

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

The Study Guides were developed for this exact reason.

Are you familiar with the Church policy on non-affiliated scripture study groups?  It is essentially the same thing.  It is one thing to simply have an open discussion with differing viewpoints. It is quite another to have published materials for others to study and use for their own personal advancement.  With a published work, where is the chance for discussion?  Where is the chance for differing viewpoints to be made known? It doesn't matter if you convince anyone in an open forum.  But at least it is an open forum.  But a published work with only cherry picked verses and quotes strictly designed to take someone down a single path of logic (or illogic) with no chance for disagreement or correction?  That is exactly what the Church is warning against.

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

4. Per the quoting of 3 Nephi, that is an incomplete study of the Doctrine of Christ. Thus, the exact reason for the Study Guides.

Again, published works.  You're holding yourself up as an authority.  While many may believe they have a pretty good handle on the teachings of the Gospel (most of whom disagree with one another) your site doesn't offer a chance for differing viewpoints and open discussion.

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

There is actually an entire section dedicated to "Why Some Will Not Seek for this" and it includes the claims that "most of us are simply not that righteous." The Savior's words in the scriptures call it "unbelief."

You're barking up the wrong tree here.  Belief and obedience are not synonymous, nor are they even proportional.  Where are you getting that from?  I've read your scriptural references in the study guides.  And that is certainly not what I get out of those scriptures.  And you don't know what experiences we have or have not had or what our relative belief levels are. 

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

 I also find it interesting that comments on this thread are commenting as if they are speaking on behalf of the LDS Church and the official position of the LDS church..."we believe...".

And you're not?  What do you think your study guides are?  I saw LOTS of scriptural references.  And I saw LOTS of personal interpretations. I didn't see ANY quotes from modern Prophets to support your interpretations. There were a few quotes from various parties. For the most part, I didn't see a problem with them.  But they don't support your "new doctrine".  And, of course, the above quote from Cowdery that you expanded all on your own to mean something that he never intended..

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

If you have dismissed this truth, humbly, you are not aware of the historical teachings from the likes of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie, Russell M. Nelson, David A. Bednar, Neal A. Maxwell and others. 

If those teachings are so important, why are they not a part of the study guide?

Funny you should mention Elder McConkie.  I was just reading something of his the other day. When speaking of the Second Comforter, he said:

Quote

In a revelation to certain selected saints in this dispensation, the Lord said that the alms of their prayers were ‘recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world’ (D. & C. 88:2), which is to say that they were among those who had ‘overcome by faith,’ and were ‘sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.’ (D. & C. 76:53.) 

-- Doctrinal New Testament Commentary

We know that receiving the 2nd Comforter is a goal.  And we need to keep that goal in our hearts.  It is not the emphasis, but the focus that you're placing on this that bothers me.  It is the difference between a long term goal and a short term goal.

Why does the Church not talk about it?  It does, just not that often, because it is a long term goal.  We need to be reminded of long term goals, true.  But the majority of our time and focus should be spent on getting the short term goals done, because that is what will get us to the long term goal, eventually.

Edited by Guest

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8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

2. Appears to be an issue, from some, with the "tone" of some comments made on the site. For that, you have my sincere apologies.

That's why I was trying to offer constructive criticism on how to improve your tone :)

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

The Study Guides speak for themselves. They are the words of the Lord in scripture.

*My personal soap box upcoming, triggered by this comment, but also fueled by other stuff*

The minute someone selects scriptures to present, you're adding your own layer of interpretation/words/thought-herding.  It is no longer just "the word of the Lord", but flavored with your words/thoughts too.  For an example, there's ton of anti-faith-X stuff out there where the author will "debunk" things by cherry-picking their favorite verses while ignoring others and say "this isn't me talking, it's the Lord".  No, no.

*End of personal soap box*

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

I am not taking the comments personal about the tone, although I will sincerely apologize, but I will say that I would assume that the Pharisees did not appreciate the Savior's tone when He preached and certainly when He turned the tables over in the temple. The pharisees would probably tell us that Jesus' teaching didn't quite fit in the "pharisee box."

Ok, I and other people are trying to be helpful.  And for that you literally declared you're ignoring us, compared us to Pharisees, and yourself to persecuted Christ?

8 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

It is hard to represent my personal desire, my heart and my humble sincerity through text. For that I am sorry and ask for forgiveness in my writing abilities. I am certain that if we were sitting together in the same room it would come across different. I probably didn't reply to everything for which I also apologize.

Right now your intentions come off as nothing but an egotistical attack on people's faith, devoid of any sincerity.  You are not apologizing- an apology involves listening and humility.  Instead you are elevating yourself to Christ and scorning all those who try to help you.  This is not a fault of your writing ability or the internet, but your pride and closed ears.  

I strongly suggest that you de-pedestal and your filthy rags*, and instead focus on actually becoming a humble disciple of Christ.  

(*This is nothing personal/specfic, all of our works are filthy rags)  

 

 

Edited by Jane_Doe

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No, not associated with snuffer still. Never read his stuff and have no clue what that download reference was. Do not, never have associated with non-LDS study groups. If snuffer is talking about second comforter, he did not invent teaching. That phrase, as a matter of fact, is in the Bible Dictionary, Guide to the Scriptures and Topical Guide.

The term "Doctrine of Christ" is not my term. Nephi introduced it in the Book of Mormon and the steps, principles and truths of it are repeatedly discussed throughout. Nephi teaches it in "plainness"--his words, not mine. 

Quotes from LDS church leaders are in fact in the Study Guide. I like the one from McConkie you shared, thank you.

I take no issue with church leaders. I love and sustain them in their respective callings from my Sunday School teacher to my Bishop to the church President. Part of using our own free will is to discern who is speaking prophetically at any given point in time. That discernment is personal revelation. Personal revelation is part of our personal learning. Getting it right and getting it wrong are included in that learning.

Any scriptures referenced in the Study Guide were not intended to be cherry picked. At the beginning of the guide it asks all readers to study and search the verses before and after the referenced scriptures. Thus the referenced scriptures were only a starting point. Once there, the Lord's words and spirit can do the teaching to each individual.

This discussion was never supposed to be about "me". As a matter of fact, that's the point of keeping it anonymous so that the reader can focus on the message as opposed to the messenger. I apologize for any egotism. It is apparently taking the attention away from the original desire. Please ask that we cease the personal attacks--me included--and keep it to the substance of the Doctrine of Christ.As a I mentioned before, if people are fully aware ("in the know") of the Doctrine of Christ and are on this spiritual journey or have fulfilled that spiritual journey to receive the Savior, Jesus Christ, in mortality then hallelujah. After all, it is the "plan of salvation" that Moses refers to (Moses 6:59-62). This is the gospel--the "good news"--that the Savior is asking and patiently waiting for us to seek His face and His presence. If people are "in the know", have already received or fulfilled the Doctrine of Christ then do as Moses encourages "teach it to others" and encourage others to start their journey to the presence of the Lord. That's what I was trying to do on this forum--share it and provide people a chance to learn it if they are unfamiliar.

If the Doctrine of Christ is not something that you personally choose to learn, understand, believe or live then I can only recommend that you move on from this forum thread. 2 Nephi 28 is a great resource. It's also perfectly ok with someone not liking the guide format and direction. I respect everyone's own personal journey. I've had mine and continue on mine. 

Good discussion. Thank you for your comments.

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Guest

DOC,

None of anything I posted was supposed to be a personal attack.  But I see a LOT of problems with what you've said on this forum as well as on your website.  Your refusal to actually discuss it is what is most disturbing.

If you want, you can start anew by simply stating what the heck you're actually trying to say about the Second Comforter.  If you can clearly state that, then ignore everything I've posted after the line of stars below.

I've pointed out all the problems of your message.  And you keep saying that I'm wrong -- even after reading all your materials.  So, correct me.  What is it that you mean, because reading the material is obviously not properly communicating what you intend..

Because all I'm really hearing is:

Quote

Yes, every person is expected to actually receive the Savior, Jesus Christ while in mortality as part of one's personal ascension process.

And if that is not what you intend, then correct me.

If that is what you intend, your study guide did NOT do a good job of supporting that notion.

***************************************

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Do not, never have associated with non-LDS study groups.

I never said non-LDS.  I said non-affiliated.  IOW, groups that are set up by members of the Church to study on their own without proper priesthood keys.  Get together to study for a bit.  Ok.  But to have a regular study group of selected members creates an atmosphere of collusion.  This leads people to believe they are an authority unto themselves.  This is what you've done and you don't even realize it.

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

If snuffer is talking about second comforter, he did not invent teaching. That phrase, as a matter of fact, is in the Bible Dictionary, Guide to the Scriptures and Topical Guide.

You are correct.  He did not invent the teaching.  He invented the idea that we are ALL supposed to have this experience in mortality.  If you did not mean this, then explain the phrases I quoted in the previous post.

And if you've never read his teachings, then who have you been listening to?  Because it is identical.

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

The term "Doctrine of Christ" is not my term. Nephi introduced it in the Book of Mormon and the steps, principles and truths of it are repeatedly discussed throughout. Nephi teaches it in "plainness"--his words, not mine. 

I never said it was.  But your definition and significance is all your own.  That's where the problem lies.

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Quotes from LDS church leaders are in fact in the Study Guide. I like the one from McConkie you shared, thank you.

Yes, and they're all used to tell people to stop listening to the prophet.  That is another commonality of the Snufferites, whether you use that label for yourself or not.

As I mentioned, yes, you have a few of them in your study guide.  But none support this notion that we need the Second Comforter in this life in order to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.  If that's not what you meant, then I'd really appreciate a clarification about why you're putting so much focus on it.

And, yes, you quoted McConkie.  But I noticed that you specifically left out the phrase I bolded. And when you read my quote,  you didn't even acknowledge how much that changes the meaning in the context of your claims.

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

I take no issue with church leaders. I love and sustain them in their respective callings from my Sunday School teacher to my Bishop to the church President. Part of using our own free will is to discern who is speaking prophetically at any given point in time. That discernment is personal revelation. Personal revelation is part of our personal learning. Getting it right and getting it wrong are included in that learning.

You take no issue, yet you tell people to stop listening to them?  I'm all for confirming their declarations with a follow up of personal prayer so we can each individually gain a testimony (which we're constantly counseled to do).  But when you juxtapose this doctrine with all the quotes about "ravening wolves" it tilts the meaning somewhat in favor of denying that our apostles are still called of God, don't ya think?

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Any scriptures referenced in the Study Guide were not intended to be cherry picked. At the beginning of the guide it asks all readers to study and search the verses before and after the referenced scriptures. 

"Cherry Picked" does not mean "out of context."  It means that you're ignoring inconvenient data so that you can justify an illogical conclusion or itnerpretation.  It means that you've taken the exact phrases and ONLY the exact phrases that you can use to support your position.  As far as reading all the context, where is the opportunity for discussion?  I've read them.  I've prayed about them. I disagree with your interpretation.  Then what?  You don't welcome a differing opinion or alternate interpretation?  What do you accept?

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

This discussion was never supposed to be about "me". As a matter of fact, that's the point of keeping it anonymous so that the reader can focus on the message as opposed to the messenger.

Again, this is exactly what Snufferites say and do.  The very denying your personal opinion is what is gives this away.  You continue to give your personal interpretations, and yet you again and again say that this is not your opinion or interpretation -- it is simply the truth.  And again, you refuse to discuss such interpretations.

It would actually be preferable and more proper if you offered this as your personal opinion and interpretation.  That would then invite the discussion that may lead to enlightenment.

Quote

And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand;

D&C 50:10

Where is the opportunity to reason together?  Without that, can we hope to understand?

1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

"in the know"

You keep using this phrase.  Why?

Edited by Guest

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1 hour ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

This discussion was never supposed to be about "me". As a matter of fact, that's the point of keeping it anonymous so that the reader can focus on the message as opposed to the messenger. I apologize for any egotism. It is apparently taking the attention away from the original desire. Please ask that we cease the personal attacks--me included--and keep it to the substance of the Doctrine of Christ.

Are you willing to listen and take feedback?  

Edited by Jane_Doe

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11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

DOC,

None of anything I posted was supposed to be a personal attack.  But I see a LOT of problems with what you've said on this forum as well as on your website.  Your refusal to actually discuss it is what is most disturbing.

If you want, you can start anew by simply stating what the heck you're actually trying to say about the Second Comforter.  If you can clearly state that, then ignore everything I've posted after the line of stars below.

I've pointed out all the problems of your message.  And you keep saying that I'm wrong -- even after reading all your materials.  So, correct me.  What is it that you mean, because reading the material is obviously not properly communicating what you intend..

Because all I'm really hearing is:

And if that is not what you intend, then correct me.

If that is what you intend, your study guide did NOT do a good job of supporting that notion.

***************************************

I never said non-LDS.  I said non-affiliated.  IOW, groups that are set up by members of the Church to study on their own without proper priesthood keys.  Get together to study for a bit.  Ok.  But to have a regular study group of selected members creates an atmosphere of collusion.  This leads people to believe they are an authority unto themselves.  This is what you've done and you don't even realize it.

You are correct.  He did not invent the teaching.  He invented the idea that we are ALL supposed to have this experience in mortality.  If you did not mean this, then explain the phrases I quoted in the previous post.

And if you've never read his teachings, then who have you been listening to?  Because it is identical.

I never said it was.  But your definition and significance is all your own.  That's where the problem lies.

Yes, and they're all used to tell people to stop listening to the prophet.  That is another commonality of the Snufferites, whether you use that label for yourself or not.

As I mentioned, yes, you have a few of them in your study guide.  But none support this notion that we need the Second Comforter in this life in order to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.  If that's not what you meant, then I'd really appreciate a clarification about why you're putting so much focus on it.

And, yes, you quoted McConkie.  But I noticed that you specifically left out the phrase I bolded. And when you read my quote,  you didn't even acknowledge how much that changes the meaning in the context of your claims.

You take no issue, yet you tell people to stop listening to them?  I'm all for confirming their declarations with a follow up of personal prayer so we can each individually gain a testimony (which we're constantly counseled to do).  But when you juxtapose this doctrine with all the quotes about "ravening wolves" it tilts the meaning somewhat in favor of denying that our apostles are still called of God, don't ya think?

"Cherry Picked" does not mean "out of context."  It means that you're ignoring inconvenient data so that you can justify an illogical conclusion or itnerpretation.  It means that you've taken the exact phrases and ONLY the exact phrases that you can use to support your position.  As far as reading all the context, where is the opportunity for discussion?  I've read them.  I've prayed about them. I disagree with your interpretation.  Then what?  You don't welcome a differing opinion or alternate interpretation?  What do you accept?

Again, this is exactly what Snufferites say and do.  The very denying your personal opinion is what is gives this away.  You continue to give your personal interpretations, and yet you again and again say that this is not your opinion or interpretation -- it is simply the truth.  And again, you refuse to discuss such interpretations.

It would actually be preferable and more proper if you offered this as your personal opinion and interpretation.  That would then invite the discussion that may lead to enlightenment.

Where is the opportunity to reason together?  Without that, can we hope to understand?

You keep using this phrase.  Why?

"If you want, you can start anew by simply stating what the heck you're actually trying to say about the Second Comforter."

I will try to be clear and simple. The second comforter is possible to receive in in mortality and the Lord invites us to seek His face continually. It does not necessarily have to do with being "good enough." The feeling of not being good enough is a derivative of "unbelief" which the scriptures associate with not receiving the Savior (second comforter). There are steps to receiving the second comforter. Learning about them from scriptures helps a person to be able to fulfill them. Discussing this reality (the Doctrine of Christ) openly are great steps to helping others start their journey and to receiving the Savior. it is the good news.

I hope that was simple. To answer a separate question about snuffer which continues to come up...again, I have not studied his teachings or his works. "How did I end up on this journey then? I was introduced to several people, at different times and places over a period of time, that have in fact received the Savior (second comforter) and continue to do so. I was able to receive their personal and unique journeys, experiences and personal witnesses. From there I went to the scriptures to learn, understand, believe and live the Doctrine of Christ. I don't know if this answers all the other secondary questions you had.

Edited by Project Doctrine of Christ

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15 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

I hope that was simple. To answer a separate question about snuffer which continues to come up...again, I have not studied his teachings or his works.

You sustain and agree with the First Presidency’s and Quorum of the Twelve’s decision to affirm his excommunication, then?

Forgive us for beating a nearly-dead horse; but my experience is that Snufferites tend to deny any connection with him when pressed.  Apparently there’s something about the manifestations they interpret as the Second Comforter, that tends to turn Snufferites into inveterate liars.

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10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

You sustain and agree with the First Presidency’s and Quorum of the Twelve’s decision to affirm his excommunication, then?

Forgive us for beating a nearly-dead horse; but my experience is that Snufferites tend to deny any connection with him when pressed.  Apparently there’s something about the manifestations they interpret as the Second Comforter, that tends to turn Snufferites into inveterate liars.

Horse is dead, yes. I don't know how else to say it. I will however say it one more time, "I have never studied his works or his teachings." I don't know anything about his excommunication other than what was reported in a Utah news report in 2017 SLTrib (I believe?). From what I remember, snuffer set himself up as a light to lead people away from the church and into unauthorized paths. That would priestcrafts (2 Nephi 26:29). I would support excommunication for priestcrafts if warranted. 

 

Edited by Project Doctrine of Christ

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