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6 hours ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

I appreciate your passion. I respect your opinion. 

I will just leave it with these comments from some of our favorite church leaders telling us to avoid this excessive dependence upon leaders in the latter and modern day:

Joseph Smith: “Because of...the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority, the question is sometimes asked,—to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the Priesthood remark, that they would do any thing they were told to do by those who presided over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without asking any questions.

“When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves, and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest it should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands.” [Priesthood," Millennial Star 14/38 (13 November 1852)]

“The obligation of revelation for the individual is often referred to as an “ascent vision experience.” It remains of paramount importance to all believers to seek the Lord’s face. Brigham Young said, “What a pity it would be if we were led by one man [or men – the arm of flesh] to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire of themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path that the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, pps. 149-50).

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that “the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep’s clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. … We should be careful of them.” (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.)

Ezra Taft Benson: “The world largely ignores the first and great commandment–to love God–but talks a lot about loving their brother. They worship at the altar of man. Would Nephi have slain Laban if he had put the love of neighbor above the love of God? Would Abraham have taken Isaac up for a sacrifice if he had put the second commandment first? "It is from within the Church that the greatest hindrance comes. Six of the original Twelve Apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith’s Counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be, that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his Prophet call them to such high office? The answer is: to fill the Lord’s purposes. For even the Master followed the will the will of the Father by selecting Judas.

“Perhaps it is His own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that His Saints may learn to trust in Him and not in any man or men. And this would parallel Lehi’s warning; put not your “. . . trust in the arm of flesh. . . .” (2 Nephi 4:34). What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire of themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders."

SOURCE: Be Not Deceived, Elder Ezra Taft Benson Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1963, p. 15-19, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1286

“Precepts of men or principles of God: Yes, it is the precepts of men versus the principles of God. The more we follow the word of God, the less we are deceived, while those who follow the wisdom of men are deceived the most. Increasingly the Latter-day Saints must choose between the reasoning of men and the revelations of God. This is a crucial choice, for we have those within the Church today who, with their worldly wisdom, are leading some of our members astray. President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood . . . We should be careful of them." (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.)

“The Lord does not always give reasons for each commandment. Sometimes faithful members, like Adam of old, are called upon to obey an injunction of the Lord even though they do not know the reason why it was given. Those who trust in God will obey him, knowing full well that time will provide the reasons and vindicate their obedience.

“The arm of flesh may not approve nor understand why God has not bestowed the priesthood on women or the seed of Cain, but God's ways are not man's ways (Isa. 55:8-9). God does not have to justify all his ways for the puny mind of man. If a man gets in tune with the Lord, he will know that God's course of action is right, even though he may not know all the reasons why.

“The Prophet Joseph Smith understood this principle when he said, ". . . the curse is not yet taken off from the sons of Canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the purposes of God in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before Him; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the decrees of the Lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do His own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel." (Documentary History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 438.)

President George Q. Cannon once taught, “Do not, brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He will NEVER fail us. When men and women depend upon GOD ALONE and trust in HIM ALONE, their faith will not be shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside.” (DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).

James E. Talmage: “The same principle applies to persons and to the Church as a whole today. God has not established His Church to make of its members irresponsible automatons, nor to exact from them blind obedience. Albeit, blessed is the man who, while unable to fathom or comprehend in full the Divine purpose underlying commandment and law, has such faith as to obey. So did Adam in offering sacrifice, yet, when questioned as to the significance of his service, he answered with faith and assurance worthy the patriarch of the race: "I know not, save the Lord commanded me." [James E. Talmage, The Vitality of Mormonism, p. 42.]

You do realize that when you use quotes from some of our favorite church leaders to prove that we shouldn't trust quotes from some of our favorite church leaders that you're shooting yourself in the foot a bit?

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You do realize that when you use quotes from some of our favorite church leaders to prove that we shouldn't trust quotes from some of our favorite church leaders that you're shooting yourself in the foot a bit?

Thank you for illustrating my point. Church leaders do not always speak for the Lord. Every word that they speak is not the word of the Lord. Thus the importance of personal revelation. The quotes along with the written word in scripture say get the truth from God for He will never tell you something that is not true. It is the responsibility of each person to discern using the power of the Holy Ghost whether any person is speaking the words of God.

 

Edited by Project Doctrine of Christ

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8 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

the written word in scripture say . . .

Why should we trust the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or Nephi, Alma, etc, more than we trust the words of President Nelson, Elder Christofferson, etc, etc?

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8 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Thank you for illustrating my point. Church leaders do not always speak for the Lord. Every word that they speak is not the word of the Lord. Thus the importance of personal revelation. The quotes along with the written word in scripture say get the truth from God for He will never tell you something that is not true. It is the responsibility of each person to discern using the power of the Holy Ghost whether any person is speaking the words of God.

I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with these words as written. But the idea is incomplete. The Lord will never tell us something that is not true. But that doesn't mean that all "inspiration" is from the Lord.

It also miserably fails to address the reality that as we struggle to grow in our ability to listen to and understand the Spirit, that we must be wise in weighing which sources we put stock in and which we do not. When the modern church leaders tell me to follow the prophet and then some random person with a website who cherry picks quotes, twists their meaning, and uses them to set himself up as some sort of trusted authority on the matter tells me otherwise, I'm going to lean to trusting the church leader's views.

But you miss the point. You are using sources to prove a point, but you have discredited those sources. You discredit all written word by all prophets. You make them all entirely useless, which makes your study guides also useless. If you're right I don't need or want your study guides or any other study guides because they are all written by untrustworthy man and I should only every pray and rely on the Spirit.

And when push comes to shove, the Spirit tells me the current leaders message to follow the prophet is true and the message that I should approach everything they say with skepticism is false. The Spirit tells me that you're message is deceptive and false.

The Spirit tells me that I should not cast off all reliance on the prophets and apostles.

The Spirit tells others on here that the plan of salvation as taught by the church is false and wrong. The Spirit tells me they are wrong.

So who's right?

How do we reconcile this claim by a bunch of different folks that the Spirit has told them the other guy is wrong when the other guy is claiming the Spirit told him he's right?

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7 hours ago, person0 said:

Okay, so I read all that.  I appreciate your diligence, but I fail to see the relevance.  Rather than address the specific things I brought up, you have taken each of these passages in a way that I believe is out of context and are trying to apply them to something to which they are not relevant.  Most of those passages apply to having our own witness by the power of the Holy Ghost, rather than suggesting we need to attain and receive all of the knowledge from scratch from the Lord as if we didn't have his servants, the prophets to guide us.

I certainly understand that leaders in the Church are mortal, fallible, men.  However, so were the ones who wrote the words we now have as scriptures.  Absolutely ZERO difference.  Also, the mortality, fallibility, and frailty of our leaders has ZERO bearing on our ability to rely on their knowledge and understanding of scripture and of what is pertinent to our time.  Why/How?  Because they are united.  The doctrines and focuses of the Church are established by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.  One or many apostles and leaders may fail us, and the Lord, but the doctrines as outlined by the combined leadership remains.

Anyway, its pretty simple, either you accept that the words of the Living prophet are more important and more valuable and more authoritative than a dead prophet, or you don't.  And if you don't then I see no reason to continue this discussion, as I would believe your perspective to be inherently flawed and contrary to the established doctrine of the Church.

My point is simple or at least I a trying to simplify. Forgive me for my inability to word everything as smooth as needed. 

To your point, "rather than suggesting we need to attain and receive all of the knowledge from scratch from the Lord as if we didn't have his servants, the prophets to guide us", yes, servants or church leaders are supposed to "guide us." That means they point or direct a person to the Lord for the truth. That's why they recommend and teach people as best they can to learn how to discern truth using God's spirit (the voice of the Lord.) 

More on my point is that personal revelation trumps anything that any one person will say. The words of church leaders, being infallable (and that's ok btw I don't love or respect them any less), are not always the words of God. God is 100% truth. Thus the reason to point people to using personal revelation. It is the responsibility of all individuals to receive personal revelation and discern whether any person is speaking on behalf of the Lord or which points or portions of which they are speaking are actually God's truth. The quotes from church leaders I used before were just reinforcing that.

Per your "the brethren are united" comment. I see what you are saying but to further add to the previous point about the importance of personal revelation and how church leaders do not always speak 100% truth (God's words or God's truth). Simple example: There have been many dead church leaders and there are many living church leaders who have taken the supposed time, effort and prayer to prepare talks for leadership meetings and even general conference that then utter that "partaking of the sacrament on Sundays is a renewal of our baptismal covenant and cleanses us from sin" and so on, right. Then along comes Elder Neal Anderson who teaches that  

"Renewing our baptismal covenants is not found in the scriptures. It is not appropriate. Many of you have used it in talks. We [Church Leaders] have used it in talks. But it is not something that is used in the scriptures. And it can't be the keynote of what we say about the sacrament."

I also find it interesting that Elder Anderson is referencing "dead prophets" in the scriptures to clarify truth. But my point here is that even church leaders are not always sync'd when it comes to teaching truth. He also realizes the importance of using the scriptures to clarify truth because I'm sure he realizes that the baptism of water does not have the effect of remission of sins (which happens at one's baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost) also according to the scriptures.

Just trying to bring out the importance of personal revelation. Any judgment of God (final or not) is according to the light knowledge and truth we have obtained through personal revelation through the power of the Holy Ghost. Personal revelation is soooo important. 

I do not want my words to ever be interpreted that I think less of church leaders for being imperfect. Not at all. I love and sustain them in their personal journeys. Their journey is equally as important as my journey. God is NO respecter of persons. They are learning all the time as I am learning all the time. Within their journey they are supposed to be "leading" people to Christ and His truth (thus the term "leader") just as I am supposed to be pointing anyone to Christ and His truth. Christ is "the Leader." Man does not lead man. That's what the adversary promotes. Church leaders when really serving the Lord are "leading" people to Christ and His truth.

So much so, I was really enjoying my local church leader stake president at Stake Conference a couple of weeks ago as He gave an entire talk on "seeking the face of the Lord." That it was the most important thing we could be doing. He quoted many scriptures about dedicating our lives to a personal relationship with God and to ultimately seek for His face here in the flesh. The Stake President did not tell me how and give me a checklist, but he was just "leading" me to Christ. Thus I enjoyed the experience of using the spirit to discern the truth of God and what God would have me do to come closer to Him.

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21 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I don't think you'll find anyone who disagrees with these words as written. But the idea is incomplete. The Lord will never tell us something that is not true. But that doesn't mean that all "inspiration" is from the Lord.

It also miserably fails to address the reality that as we struggle to grow in our ability to listen to and understand the Spirit, that we must be wise in weighing which sources we put stock in and which we do not. When the modern church leaders tell me to follow the prophet and then some random person with a website who cherry picks quotes, twists their meaning, and uses them to set himself up as some sort of trusted authority on the matter tells me otherwise, I'm going to lean to trusting the church leader's views.

But you miss the point. You are using sources to prove a point, but you have discredited those sources. You discredit all written word by all prophets. You make them all entirely useless, which makes your study guides also useless. If you're right I don't need or want your study guides or any other study guides because they are all written by untrustworthy man and I should only every pray and rely on the Spirit.

And when push comes to shove, the Spirit tells me the current leaders message to follow the prophet is true and the message that I should approach everything they say with skepticism is false. The Spirit tells me that you're message is deceptive and false.

The Spirit tells me that I should not cast off all reliance on the prophets and apostles.

The Spirit tells others on here that the plan of salvation as taught by the church is false and wrong. The Spirit tells me they are wrong.

So who's right?

How do we reconcile this claim by a bunch of different folks that the Spirit has told them the other guy is wrong when the other guy is claiming the Spirit told him he's right?

Then this is ok. Everyone will be held accountable for the light and truth they have received or believe they have received. Let them be. Let everyone be. It is ok. It is personal revelation. it is ok to even be deceived at times for how will we know the difference between light and dark if we don't experience them (2 Nephi 2). Let every person learn through the spirit line upon line through their journey. It's their journey. Anyone that sincerely seeks, knocks and asks will be led on a unique personal journey to learn light from dark.

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18 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Then this is ok. Everyone will be held accountable for the light and truth they have received or believe they have received. Let them be. Let everyone be. It is ok. It is personal revelation. it is ok to even be deceived at times for how will we know the difference between light and dark if we don't experience them (2 Nephi 2). Let every person learn through the spirit line upon line through their journey. It's their journey. Anyone that sincerely seeks, knocks and asks will be led on a unique personal journey to learn light from dark.

The scriptures do not agree with you on the importance of avoiding deception.

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36 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

I love and sustain them in their personal journeys.

It's becoming more and more obvious that you do not believe that the people we sustain as apostles and prophets are actually apostles and prophets.

Also, you were deceitful just now.  The actual quote was:

Quote

The title ‘renewing our baptismal covenants’ is not found in the scriptures. It is not inappropriate. Many of you [gesturing to audience of Seventies and Auxiliary leaders] have used it in talks. We [gesturing to other apostles sitting on the stand behind him] have used it in talks, but it is not something that is used in the scriptures. And it can’t be the keynote of what we say about the sacrament. Spirituality is not stagnate and neither are covenants. And hopefully, what we pray, is that all of us as members are moving along a progressive growth both in our spirituality and in our covenants. Covenants bring not only commitments, but they bring spiritual power. We should teach our members that we are moving towards our Heavenly Father. The sacrament is a beautiful time to not just renew our baptismal covenants, but to commit to Him to renew all our covenants, all of our promises, and to approach Him in a spiritual power that we did not have previously as we move forward.

So obviously, the quote you attributed to Elder Anderson indicates that he does believe that the sacrament is a renewal of our baptismal covenants, but also that it is more than that.  Also, he is the one who said this:

Quote

There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find.
(Trial of Your Faith)

Edited by person0

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

Why should we trust the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or Nephi, Alma, etc, more than we trust the words of President Nelson, Elder Christofferson, etc, etc?

Hard to keep up with all the comments, patience. We use personal revelation equally (for all of them) to discern whether they are using their words to "lead" us to Christ.

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8 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Hard to keep up with all the comments, patience. We use personal revelation equally (for all of them) to discern whether they are using their words to "lead" us to Christ.

PDOC, out of curiousity... what do YOU do if you receive personal revelation that directly contradicts the teachings of the 15 Apostles?

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2 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Hard to keep up with all the comments, patience. We use personal revelation equally (for all of them) to discern whether they are using their words to "lead" us to Christ.

Do you believe that President Nelson is an actual prophet, with the same prophetic authority as Moses, or Peter, James and John?

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14 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Hard to keep up with all the comments, patience. We use personal revelation equally (for all of them) to discern whether they are using their words to "lead" us to Christ.

All this means is that you're a cafeteria Mormon.  At least, I don't see the difference.

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53 minutes ago, person0 said:

It's becoming more and more obvious that you do not believe that the people we sustain as apostles and prophets are actually apostles and prophets.

Also, you were deceitful just now.  The actual quote was:

So obviously, the quote you attributed to Elder Anderson indicates that he does believe that the sacrament is a renewal of our baptismal covenants, but also that it is more than that.  Also, he is the one who said this:

If the purpose is to renew the "covenant" or promise of "remembering Him" and seeking to "take His name upon us" then yes we can renew that covenant or promise. The Lord's own words in teaching the sacrament in the Book of Mormon don't talk about renewing a baptismal covenant or even all covenants.  Steve says it better than I do: http://oneclimbs.com/2017/11/03/the-sacrament-and-covenant-renewal/

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@Project Doctrine of Christ, literally every person on this board is aware that President Nelson, his counselors, the apostles, the other General Authorities, their wives, their children, their neighbors, their accountants, their gardeners, and those who listen to them at General Conference or at the grocery store are all mortal, fallible people.

This is not new doctrine. This is not a surprise to anyone. We all know it already.

What is your purpose in proclaiming this? Do you seek to protect people from being led astray by wayward apostles?

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16 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

PDOC, out of curiousity... what do YOU do if you receive personal revelation that directly contradicts the teachings of the 15 Apostles?

I will be held accountable for the words that the Lord speaks to me and what I do with them. I am ok with being accountable to the Lord. He is the one that saves, chastises, teaches, forgives, loves and more. An apostle does not save me and that does not belittle my respect for their service. But they are fallible. A person cannot agree they are fallible and then say that every word that proceeds forth from their mouth is the word of God. Since the restoration, church leaders have disagreed with one another on many subjects. In many of those cases they are citing their opinion and that is ok. What they knew at the time was good for their individual journey. I am not picking and choosing what I like or will do for convenience (I think that's what you mean by "cafeteria" mormon). I just thought it was straight forward doctrine: Jesus Christ is the Savior, He saves, He is perfect, He is truth, He has a voice, He is a teacher, He is a personal God, He has perfect empathy, He sanctifies, He is omniscient, He is omnipotent, He is omni-benevolent, He offers a personal journey, the role of church leaders is not to micromanage the personal lives of 15+ million people but rather to point them and direct them and lead them to the Savior Jesus Christ who is their personal Savior and teacher and much more.

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1 minute ago, Vort said:

@Project Doctrine of Christ, literally every person on this board is aware that President Nelson, his counselors, the apostles, the other General Authorities, their wives, their children, their neighbors, their accountants, their gardeners, and those who listen to them at General Conference or at the grocery store are all mortal, fallible people.

This is not new doctrine. This is not a surprise to anyone. We all know it already.

What is your purpose in proclaiming this? Do you seek to protect people from being led astray by wayward apostles?

Heavens no. Purpose is simply to point people to the Savior, Jesus Christ. 

Edited by Project Doctrine of Christ

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3 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

A person cannot agree they are fallible and then say that every word that proceeds forth from their mouth is the word of God.

So you're saying this board is mostly populated by non-people?  That explains a lot.

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5 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Heavens no. Purpose is simply to point people to the Savior, Jesus Christ. 

Then why are you criticizing?  Why the constant jabs at LDS people/faith/church/leaders? 

Surely you can proclaim your love of Christ without such criticism or straw man arguments. 

Edited by Jane_Doe

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5 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Heavens no. Purpose is simply to point people to the Savior, Jesus Christ. 

By pointing them away from His prophets?

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25 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Project Doctrine of Christ, literally every person on this board is aware that President Nelson, his counselors, the apostles, the other General Authorities, their wives, their children, their neighbors, their accountants, their gardeners, and those who listen to them at General Conference or at the grocery store are all mortal, fallible people.

This is not new doctrine. This is not a surprise to anyone. We all know it already.

What is your purpose in proclaiming this? Do you seek to protect people from being led astray by wayward apostles?

Yes, fallible like Moses and every other church leader. Like Moses, he was pointing the children of Israel to Christ. He even was commanded to take them to the mount and see the Lord in His glory. He was "leading" them to Christ. He was pointing them to Christ. He was even referring them to Christ as if to say, "go to Him. He will save you. He wants to sanctify you and bring you into His presence and teach you." Would you go to mount or do you rely on Moses to be a mediator. Just saying personal revelation is alive and well. 

And I'm ok with the fact that there are some of my comments that went un-addressed.

Edited by Project Doctrine of Christ

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4 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Then why are you criticizing?  Why the constant jabs at LDS people/faith/church/leaders? 

Surely you can proclaim your love of Christ without such criticism or straw man arguments. 

Where's the criticism? How dare you (Standing up for myself). I have been nothing but respectful to all church leaders and still am. 

Edited by Project Doctrine of Christ

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5 minutes ago, Project Doctrine of Christ said:

Heavens no. Purpose is simply to point people to the Savior, Jesus Christ. 

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

By pointing them away from His prophets?

DING DING DING!!!

If you look at all the statements made by PDC, there is no single statement that (when isolated with no preconceived notions) is actually false.  But combined in that format, context, order and so forth, all these individually true statements point in a certain direction, leading us down a specific path.  That is why he keeps repeating the same words over and over again.  By repeating, these statements without any other statements that give a broader picture,  inevitably leads one down the path of abandoning the prophets as prophets.

Why do we need them if we're ALL prophets? 

Where is the House of Order? 

Where's the house of order?

Where does the temple fit into all of this?

Where is the line of authority?

Where are the keys?

I certainly see no glory in any of the "study guides".  And knowing the light of God, I can tell one from the other -- even if they use the same words.

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