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Personally, I'm a person who's been abused in the past, been in codependent relationships, and I'm LDS.  So your story is already grabbing a lots of strings in me that way and I feel like I some personal understanding of the situation you're trying to write.  And... I see a lot of red flags going on here (in your story about Hannah, that is).  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Personally, I'm a person who's been abused in the past, been in codependent relationships, and I'm LDS.  So your story is already grabbing a lots of strings in me that way and I feel like I some personal understanding of the situation you're trying to write.  And... I see a lot of red flags going on here (in your story about Hannah, that is).  

Can you expand on that more - the red flags etc

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14 minutes ago, decafdarcy said:

Can you expand on that more - the red flags etc

For starters: 

The only way a person truly heals from abuse is by finding a sense of self and healing that self.  A lot of abused people will work up courage to flee a bad situation, but still lack that sense of self, and hence land in abusive situations again.  That's not always because the new person is a bad person, but because the other person is still codependent and lacking sense of self.  You've not healed at all, but simply changed the scenery.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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Just now, Jane_Doe said:

For starters: 

The only way a person truly heals from abuse is by finding a sense of self and healing that self.  A lot of abused people will work up courage to flee a bad situation, but still lack that sense of self, and hence land in abusive situations again.  That's not always because the new person is a bad person, but because the other person is still codependent and lacking sense of self.  You've not healed at all, but simply changed the scenery.  

That is true, I haven't healed anything, but this film is 10 minutes long, and can't be any longer than that I just don't have the time to include anything past the escape. The implication though is that she will heal, or she will find herself. I tend not to have a conclusion in films I make, but its open ended. You can interpret that she will heal and live a happy life with zahri, or that the process will repeat and she will end up unhappy and run away again. It depends on how you view the film I suppose. 

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2 minutes ago, decafdarcy said:

That is true, I haven't healed anything, but this film is 10 minutes long, and can't be any longer than that I just don't have the time to include anything past the escape. The implication though is that she will heal, or she will find herself. I tend not to have a conclusion in films I make, but its open ended. You can interpret that she will heal and live a happy life with zahri, or that the process will repeat and she will end up unhappy and run away again. It depends on how you view the film I suppose. 

If a person is codependent, the relationship is automatically doomed (saved of course, the broken person does find themselves through a different path). 

(Sorry if I'm being a bit soap boxy... I've know a LOT of people in these situations). 

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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

If a person is codependent, the relationship is automatically doomed (saved of course, the broken person does find themselves through a different path). 

(Sorry if I'm being a bit soap boxy... I've know a LOT of people in these situations). 

Well, then that will be a matter of personal interpretation. Remember, it all comes back to the honey bee metaphor in the end. She discovers a more powerful influence than her religion, and her mother/father, so she follows that instead -The queen is superseded, a new colony is formed. She escapes the beehive. 

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4 minutes ago, decafdarcy said:

Well, then that will be a matter of personal interpretation. Remember, it all comes back to the honey bee metaphor in the end. She discovers a more powerful influence than her religion, and her mother/father, so she follows that instead -The queen is superseded, a new colony is formed. She escapes the beehive. 

Having a new queen (aka boss) is repeating the cycle and isn't healing.  Knowing yourself is healing.  You can choose to keep things with you (like faith), but it must be YOUR faith.  

 

(Man I am being SO soapbox-y... my apologies...)

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Just now, decafdarcy said:

Well, then that will be a matter of personal interpretation. Remember, it all comes back to the honey bee metaphor in the end. She discovers a more powerful influence than her religion, and her mother/father, so she follows that instead -The queen is superseded, a new colony is formed. She escapes the beehive. 

There is a documentary by American Experience called 'Shunned' - about people leaving the Amish Faith.  The most poignant documentary related to religion and inner conflict i've ever seen.  Might provide some interesting fodder for your story.  

Good luck!

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Having a new queen (aka boss) is repeating the cycle and isn't healing.  Knowing yourself is healing.  You can choose to keep things with you (like faith), but it must be YOUR faith.  

 

(Man I am being SO soapbox-y... my apologies...)

So be it then. This isn't necessarily of recovery or healing, but its a story of supersedure. If I had more time in this film, I would definitely add a tail end, and a story of recovery perhaps. It may end up that the story focuses on the abusives patterns Hannah dives into. I actually quite like the darker side of it, and that the situation is inevitably going to repeat. But the main difference i just that Zahri isnt a tyrannical queen, the way her mother is. She is given a choice to follow, and chooses to go with it, so therefor there is an element of hope for the relationship.

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15 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

There is a documentary by American Experience called 'Shunned' - about people leaving the Amish Faith.  The most poignant documentary related to religion and inner conflict i've ever seen.  Might provide some interesting fodder for your story.  

I would totally recommend using this pattern.  It... I know the Amish.  I have Amish relatives, my g-grandpa was a Mennonite minister.  This film does not accurately portray them.  

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@decafdarcy. You know the young woman will have many people to turn to:

her bishop who will interview her once a year. The bishop is often chosen in part for his skills in working with young people. Eg my bishop is a high school teacher.

her young woman’s teacher. Chosen in part for her ability to connect with young people.

she will go to camp once a year. During which the girls will tearfully confide in each other during the camp and especially the testimony meeting.

It is tough for cold parents to control thei child with so many meetings, there is a Tuesday evening young women’s class. The teachers will take an interest in all the young women. If someone suspects a proble, they will talk to the bishop and to the parents themselves. The young woman will have many role models.

Edited by Sunday21
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The problem here, @Sunday21 is that "Mormon" is just an artificial overlay that @decafdarcy is trying to force over a story that actually has nothing to do with anything "Mormon", but which needs a "Beehive" motif to come from somewhere.  Based on the two threads we have about this story, I would say that anyone who knows the Church well will find the overlay as artificial as it is, and entirely unbelievable (to the point of distraction from the actual story).  Thus, how do we help Darcy fix this problem?

As an author, I fully understand the idea that Darcy has a story which insists on being told, that she also needs this beehive motif to come from somewhere believable, and thus far, she's only found it among Mormons.  I also understand that yanking out something you've already based your plans on is painful (I once yanked the first 200 pages from book 3 - it was extremely difficult, but it had to be done).  But we have here a story that mainstream Mormon reality isn't going to fit with.  So here are my ideas for how to resolve this problem:

1) You could try to go with a polygamous Mormon offshoot - people who are not Mormon but claim the same starting point.  The problem here is that from what little I know of such groups, the husband (and other men) would have more control over things, and a 12-13 year-old girl would probably be two steps away from being married off to some older man.  So, this has problems.

2) Do what L. E. Modesitt, Jr. does in his science fiction novels and set your story in the future, with some very morphed version of the Church.  (For the record, it's said this author hates the Church (or at least dislikes it - hard to say which as there are no first-hand sources), but he always includes some morphed version in his science fiction novels, all of which are based around the future of people on or from the real Earth as we now know it.  Usually, the reference is vague and the Church is never significant to the story - in the ones I've read - they're just part of the scenery.)  Anywho, the point being, when you take the story out of reality, you're free to manipulate things without worrying so much about credible.

3) Some mix of 1 & 2 might work best - what if there were another offshoot, one started by someone like Kate Kelly / Ordain Women?  One where women have taken leadership of the offshoot church.  Here we have a setting that works with a domineering mother and not so involved father.  We have a world where the girl sees women as powerful authority figures.  The girl might want to be a functional part of this structure, but her own mother, instead of helping her along is over-controlling, critical, or what-have-you.  It would be perfectly natural for her to seek out another woman leader (e.g. in another ward or stake or whatever they want to call them - the Beehive motif could be soaked for all it's worth in this artificial realm, and instead of wards we now have "hives").  For a girl to assert this option and be supported by another adult female in the church wouldn't be so contrived.  Even for lesbianism to be acceptable would not have to be contrived in this realm.

4) Bag all relation to Mormons and come up with another source for the beehive motif - and it can also be entirely fictional, doesn't have to come from the real world.

To me #3 and #4 seem like obvious solutions to the problems of (a) the mainstream Mormon reality not fitting the story, and (b) the need to get a "Beehive" image from somewhere.  It may require the storyteller to do the hard work of trashing an idea already firmly embraced, but from everything I've seen in these two threads, the story will be much better served by detaching it from mainstream Mormon reality.

(The following is a note on cultural details that I'm not sure are known (though they may well be), but which I fear may be erroneously involved in all this...  A 12-13 year old girl is a member of "Beehives" or the "Beehive" class in the Young Women organization.  She might be called "a Beehive" (not a "Bee" in the "Beehive"!).  But this name would only be used in very specific situations and isn't likely to be used outside of those few situations.  Mentioned just in case there was some hope of tying it in as significant - or worse, referring to the character as a "Bee" - never in all history could that be realistic.)

Edited by zil
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4 hours ago, zil said:

(The following is a note on cultural details that I'm not sure are known (though they may well be), but which I fear may be erroneously involved in all this...  A 12-13 year old girl is a member of "Beehives" or the "Beehive" class in the Young Women organization.  She might be called "a Beehive" (not a "Bee" in the "Beehive"!).  

Agreed.  Two other thoughts--

1) Even if a young lady age 12-13 were to leave the church, her family, etc, she'd still be a beehive aged girl.  It's just the age.  

2) This reference (referring to that youth group class) is used to situationally (just talking about the class) I don't see any non-LDS folks getting the reference (heck, I'm LDS, spent 2 years in the beehive class, and still didn't get the reference at first).   

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12 hours ago, zil said:

The problem here, @Sunday21 is that "Mormon" is just an artificial overlay that @decafdarcy is trying to force over a story that actually has nothing to do with anything "Mormon", but which needs a "Beehive" motif to come from somewhere.  Based on the two threads we have about this story, I would say that anyone who knows the Church well will find the overlay as artificial as it is, and entirely unbelievable (to the point of distraction from the actual story).  Thus, how do we help Darcy fix this problem?

As an author, I fully understand the idea that Darcy has a story which insists on being told, that she also needs this beehive motif to come from somewhere believable, and thus far, she's only found it among Mormons.  I also understand that yanking out something you've already based your plans on is painful (I once yanked the first 200 pages from book 3 - it was extremely difficult, but it had to be done).  But we have here a story that mainstream Mormon reality isn't going to fit with.  So here are my ideas for how to resolve this problem:

1) You could try to go with a polygamous Mormon offshoot - people who are not Mormon but claim the same starting point.  The problem here is that from what little I know of such groups, the husband (and other men) would have more control over things, and a 12-13 year-old girl would probably be two steps away from being married off to some older man.  So, this has problems.

2) Do what L. E. Modesitt, Jr. does in his science fiction novels and set your story in the future, with some very morphed version of the Church.  (For the record, it's said this author hates the Church (or at least dislikes it - hard to say which as there are no first-hand sources), but he always includes some morphed version in his science fiction novels, all of which are based around the future of people on or from the real Earth as we now know it.  Usually, the reference is vague and the Church is never significant to the story - in the ones I've read - they're just part of the scenery.)  Anywho, the point being, when you take the story out of reality, you're free to manipulate things without worrying so much about credible.

3) Some mix of 1 & 2 might work best - what if there were another offshoot, one started by someone like Kate Kelly / Ordain Women?  One where women have taken leadership of the offshoot church.  Here we have a setting that works with a domineering mother and not so involved father.  We have a world where the girl sees women as powerful authority figures.  The girl might want to be a functional part of this structure, but her own mother, instead of helping her along is over-controlling, critical, or what-have-you.  It would be perfectly natural for her to seek out another woman leader (e.g. in another ward or stake or whatever they want to call them - the Beehive motif could be soaked for all it's worth in this artificial realm, and instead of wards we now have "hives").  For a girl to assert this option and be supported by another adult female in the church wouldn't be so contrived.  Even for lesbianism to be acceptable would not have to be contrived in this realm.

4) Bag all relation to Mormons and come up with another source for the beehive motif - and it can also be entirely fictional, doesn't have to come from the real world.

To me #3 and #4 seem like obvious solutions to the problems of (a) the mainstream Mormon reality not fitting the story, and (b) the need to get a "Beehive" image from somewhere.  It may require the storyteller to do the hard work of trashing an idea already firmly embraced, but from everything I've seen in these two threads, the story will be much better served by detaching it from mainstream Mormon reality.

(The following is a note on cultural details that I'm not sure are known (though they may well be), but which I fear may be erroneously involved in all this...  A 12-13 year old girl is a member of "Beehives" or the "Beehive" class in the Young Women organization.  She might be called "a Beehive" (not a "Bee" in the "Beehive"!).  But this name would only be used in very specific situations and isn't likely to be used outside of those few situations.  Mentioned just in case there was some hope of tying it in as significant - or worse, referring to the character as a "Bee" - never in all history could that be realistic.)

Whilst I appreciate your input, I will not be removing the mormon aspect from this story. The story was made before I even found out about the beehive symbolism - I added that in afterwards and realised how well fitting the metaphor of bees would be. The story is based on one of my sisters friends who lives across the road from us, which this exact thing happened to. She decided to leave the church as she didnt agree with views and the restrictions they put on her life, and her mother didnt like it and essentially shunned her. The story will not change or lose the mormon symbolism or anything. I don't think it needs fixing at all.

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1 minute ago, decafdarcy said:

Whilst I appreciate your input, I will not be removing the mormon aspect from this story. The story was made before I even found out about the beehive symbolism - I added that in afterwards and realised how well fitting the metaphor of bees would be. The story is based on one of my sisters friends who lives across the road from us, which this exact thing happened to. She decided to leave the church as she didnt agree with views and the restrictions they put on her life, and her mother didnt like it and essentially shunned her. The story will not change or lose the mormon symbolism or anything. I don't think it needs fixing at all.

OK.  FWIW, just from what I've heard, anyone familiar with the Church would either find it incredible, or assume that the family involved was clearly not "active" or "devout" (however you want to put it).  This is clearly dysfunction from a Church standpoint.  If presented as "normal" or "typical", it would be more than far-fetched.  Therefore, my conclusion is that the family across the road were / are dysfunctional (at least from a Mormon perspective, if not a broader perspective).

I probably should have add an "It seems to me" at the start of my previous post - didn't mean to imply certainty where there wasn't any - sorry if that rankled.

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15 minutes ago, decafdarcy said:

Whilst I appreciate your input, I will not be removing the mormon aspect from this story. The story was made before I even found out about the beehive symbolism - I added that in afterwards and realised how well fitting the metaphor of bees would be. The story is based on one of my sisters friends who lives across the road from us, which this exact thing happened to. She decided to leave the church as she didnt agree with views and the restrictions they put on her life, and her mother didnt like it and essentially shunned her. The story will not change or lose the mormon symbolism or anything. I don't think it needs fixing at all.

I'm sorry that happened to your friend.  For whatever it's worth, the LDS faith does NOT endorse abuse or shunning of any kind.  Rather, we are instructed to love each other, especially children, including if they are bad activities.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/21/2018 at 7:50 AM, zil said:

but which needs a "Beehive" motif to come from somewhere

she also needs this beehive motif to come from somewhere believable, and thus far, she's only found it among Mormons. 

See?  Deseret.

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