Where is heavenly father when I need him? Antidepressants and the spirit.


Petty3
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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Remember my friend, you should pay attention to the doctors and mental health professionals-they do know best

Obviously you didn't pay attention to what she wrote.  "They know best", yeap right, except they initially gave her medicine that made her suicidal.  If she had actually committed suicide, would anyone be held to blame . .. nope. 

In any other medical field this would be called malpractice and people would be calling for the doctor to be fired!

But keep thinking "they do know best" . . .logically inconsistencies got to love it.

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Hi Petty3,

Just fair warning, JoCa is quite passionately negative about the topic.  He's in the minority, but sometimes he yells so loud it sounds like his voice is bigger than it is.

I suggest you take everything he is saying with a grain of salt.  Quite a lot of it is absolutely NOT in alignment with what the church has to say about the issue.

And as you move through this stage of your life, you'll find the occasional person who seems to be a set of speakers turned up to eleven on one particular aspect of you.  Some of them might take it quite personally and even get offensive if you decline to see things their way.  Not saying JoCa will do this, but he does have a quite long multi-year track record of making discussions like this real contentious, real fast.  Not quite what you came here for, I get that. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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45 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Not saying JoCa will do this, but he does have a quite long multi-year track record of making discussions like this real contentious, real fast.  Not quite what you came here for, I get that. 

? Only b/c I don't spout the typical mantra.

Yes, depression is real. Yes symptoms are real.

I know it gives people a lot of comfort to think that doctors really know why people are depressed, have symptoms, etc.  But if you ask any good psychologist and they answer honestly, they will tell you that they really don't know exactly why. Studies after studies have shown that medicines are at best placebos and at worst really jack with your brain.  It's a nice comfort food thought (that the doctors really know what is happening), but they don't really know.

I just linked an article from PsycologyToday (about as mainstream in psychology as you can get!) about the myth of "chemical imbalances" and what do I get in return. STE "Just ignore JoCa he is not in alignment with the Church).  Really-that's the response. That's about as delusional as you can get.  The profession admits "chemical imbalance" is a myth but anyone who points it out is "NOT in alignment".

Sigh, talk about self-delusion.

Did you know that in order to get a psychological drug approved by the FDA all it takes is 3 double blind tests showing it outperforms placebos. Not 3 in a row, not 3 out of 5 but 3. So they could run thousands of tests and get three and viola new drug.

The placebo effect is very real and very powerful . . .but a significant portion of the time, the drugs are just that very expensive placebos with very dangerous side effects. This isn't earth shattering, just do your research.  Oh but I'm "NOT in alignment" b/c I research the crap out of a subject . . .got it.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not bring this up to provoke.  If you think I'm lying, I can't help you; all I can tell you is the truth.  I don't intend to provoke, the truth is provocative however.  And the best medicine to help people in their lives is truth, not self-deception and lies. 

Edited by JoCa
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8 minutes ago, JoCa said:
Quote

Quite a lot of it is absolutely NOT in alignment with what the church has to say about the issue.

Formal CFR issued.

Sure thing JoCa.

Here's some of the stuff you have to say about the topic:

Quote

It is my opinion that there is really no such thing as mental illness
...
The only way to cure the symptoms are through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  Get good rest, eat healthy and allow Christ's Atonement to work in your life.
...
The symptoms are very real, but to say that a "chemical imbalance" causes them is bs.
...
But this idea that doctor's know what's going on is just BS.

 

Here's some of the stuff the church has to say about the topic:

Myths about Mental Illness By Elder Alexander B. Morrison Of the Seventy

Quote

...It must be emphasized that in many instances aberrant thoughts, actions, and feelings result from mental illness and not from sin. They come from disease, not transgression. ...  The truth is that many faithful Latter-day Saints who live the commandments and honor their covenants experience struggles with mental illness or are required to deal with the intense pain and suffering of morally righteous but mentally ill family members.
...
Furthermore, we are learning that many mental illnesses result from chemical disorders in the brain, just as diabetes results from a chemical disorder in the pancreas.
...
We must understand, however, without in any way denigrating the unique role of priesthood blessings, that ecclesiastical leaders are spiritual leaders and not mental health professionals. Most of them lack the professional skills and training to deal effectively with deep-seated mental illnesses and are well advised to seek competent professional assistance for those in their charge who are in need of it.
...
 Just as we would not hesitate to consult a physician about medical problems such as cancer, heart disease, or diabetes, so too we should not hesitate to obtain medical and other appropriate professional assistance in dealing with mental illness.

 

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I know this is hard, but that article was written 13 years ago.

I will link it again b/c you obviously didn't read it:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-illness-metaphor/201709/the-myth-the-chemical-imbalance

"Furthermore, we are learning that many mental illnesses result from chemical disorders in the brain, just as diabetes results from a chemical disorder in the pancreas."

Obviously Elder Morrison isn't up on the latest and greatest. He is directly wrong here and finally! in 2017 someone in the profession actually had the guts to admit it.

My CFRs from an actual pyscologist.

https://podcast.rosemond.com/?name=2017-12-22_jr_20171216.mp3

https://podcast.rosemond.com/?name=2017-12-08_jr_120217.mp3

https://podcast.rosemond.com/?p=archive&cat=all&pgn=2

Pretty good stuff here.

You really should read Jane_Doe's comment again.  It's really quite interesting, people who actually have gotten over mental illness, talk about emotional healing.  The vast, vast majority of major problems come from trauma.

 

Edited by JoCa
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So yeah, JoCa, in one breath, belittles competent medical advice, and in the next breath, quotes a blog run by "a group of renowned psychologists, academics, psychiatrists".

In one breath, he takes issue with an article from LDS.org that was written 13 years ago.  In the next breath, his suggested link references a work from 1991 - a full quarter-century ago.

Oh - and another reference is to a website that is trying to sell you a DVD named "Psychiatry - Industry of DEATH".  It's textbook "how to spot snake oil 101" - if a website is trying to sell you a product, then it's not producing "research" you "should read", it's producing an advertisement dressed up as research.

 

Yeah, so again, we're not removing JoCa's posts or banning him or anything, but he's a tiny minority speaking stuff in direct opposition to what the church, the medical community, and umpteen gazillion actual medication-takers have to say about it.  Again, I suggest everyone take his thoughts with a grain of salt. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

So yeah, JoCa, in one breath, belittles competent medical advice, and in the next breath, quotes a blog run by "a group of renowned psychologists, academics, psychiatrists".

In one breath, he takes issue with an article from LDS.org that was written 13 years ago.  In the next breath, his suggested link references a work from 1991 - a full quarter-century ago.

Lol . . .you have no clue with what you are talking about. What reference to 1991?

 

Edited by JoCa
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8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

the medical community, 

Not an argument.  Can you not address the PsycologyToday article?

Is there or is there not a chemical imbalance?  Simple question.  Answer it please.

Or do all you have is logical fallacies about how I'm not in alignment.  One thing at a time, we'll deal with other things later.

Edited by JoCa
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5 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Your link goes here - yes?

image.png.e770fa3ba804172751705c1b116a2294.png

 

The bottom of your link shows this - right?

image.png.6e9316de2498018458043dc66688eb30.png

 

 

Are you serious? Are you trolling?

The article was written Sept. 28. 2017.  

And I'm a researcher who writes professional journal articles and I've seen plenty of articles written in 2018 that reference articles in 1960s. That's normal, well-established and in fact actually lends more credence to the article as it means the research is more well-established! 

You completely ignored the rest.

Citizens Commission on Human Rights. (n.d.). Real disease vs. mental “disorder.”Retrieved from http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/real-disease-vs-mental-disorder.html

Pies, R. W. (2011, July 11). Psychiatry’s new brain-mind and the legend of the “chemical imbalance.” Psychiatric Times. Retrieved from http://www.psychiatrictimes.com

Rebuttal please?

 
Edited by JoCa
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2 hours ago, Petty3 said:

I hope to get off medication sooner than later.  I have no idea if I have a chemical imbalance or not but I do know that a year ago when I first was put on medication that it took a while to find the right balance.  I was hospitalized for a short time after starting the medication for suicide and realized the medication was doing the opposite of what it should.  But after some trial and error I feel like what I'm taking is working.

The psychiatrist said that to get off the medicine she will decrease the amounts slowly and that it takes up to a year to get completely off.

 

i hope you have a doctor that treats you as a person and not a problem.  i know lots of doctors who treat their patients like problems, and seek the simplest solution to the problem - with disastrous results for the patient.  You are worth having a good doctor and should exercise as much freedom in adjusting who treats you as they do in how they treat you.

Abuse is a horrific thing.  There is a book by Crystal McVea called 'Waking Up In Heaven'.  She was abused as a child and suffered intensely for most of her adult life.  She had a near death experience and explained how she realized that God viewed her, and the abuse.  Quite profound - and changed her a lot.  There are some short clips on YT that explain her experience, if that is of any interest to you.

You have my prayers, such as they are.

And to clarify - i lack the medical training to have an opinion one way or the other on the efficacy of antidepressants.  i don't meant to suggest anything one way or the other in that regard.

Edited by lostinwater
Admission of medical ignorance :)
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10 hours ago, Petty3 said:

I hope to get off medication sooner than later.  I have no idea if I have a chemical imbalance or not but I do know that a year ago when I first was put on medication that it took a while to find the right balance.  I was hospitalized for a short time after starting the medication for suicide and realized the medication was doing the opposite of what it should.  But after some trial and error I feel like what I'm taking is working.

The psychiatrist said that to get off the medicine she will decrease the amounts slowly and that it takes up to a year to get completely off.

 

 

As I have said - I am no expert - but there is a book "Lost Connections" that you may find interesting.

 

The Traveler

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Guest MormonGator
9 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oh - and another reference is to a website that is trying to sell you a DVD named "Psychiatry - Industry of DEATH".  It's textbook "how to spot snake oil 101" - if a website is trying to sell you a product, then it's not producing "research" you "should read", it's producing an advertisement dressed up as research.

Hippy friend: All drug companies care about is money! 

Me: So, are "natural cures" free?

Hippy friend: No, they cost a huge amount of money. 
 

No, not an actual conversation, but so true. 

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Guest MormonGator
12 hours ago, JoCa said:

 

The rest generally just make you drugged up . . .oh isn't that lovely you can't think about being depressed if you are half-asleep for the entire day.

That you think this way shows your ignorance on the subject. Most people on anti depressants don't just act "half asleep" all day. 

Edited by MormonGator
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11 hours ago, JoCa said:

Are you serious? Are you trolling?

The article was written Sept. 28. 2017.  

And I'm a researcher who writes professional journal articles and I've seen plenty of articles written in 2018 that reference articles in 1960s. That's normal, well-established and in fact actually lends more credence to the article as it means the research is more well-established! 

You completely ignored the rest.

Citizens Commission on Human Rights. (n.d.). Real disease vs. mental “disorder.”Retrieved from http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/real-disease-vs-mental-disorder.html

Pies, R. W. (2011, July 11). Psychiatry’s new brain-mind and the legend of the “chemical imbalance.” Psychiatric Times. Retrieved from http://www.psychiatrictimes.com

Rebuttal please?

 

Are YOU trolling?? Been in the psychology field for a long time. Researcher myself. It is a well established fact that you should be citing research from the 2000's and forward. And "psychology today" is NOT a reputable source of info. The Psychiatric times is not a peer-reviewed journal. The 1991 reference is a book, which cool. One person had an opinion on the subject and got an editor to publish it--much easier to do than publishing in a reputable journal, approved by the APA. I'm not saying your argument about chemical imbalance is wrong, but find some more reputable sources to cite my friend.

The majority of all psychologists/psychiatrists do not suggest medication as the one and only treatment for depression and other diagnoses. There should always be a combination of medication and treatment strategies, like CBT. You referenced Jane_Doe's comment on emotional healing. YES! That's exactly what CBT does, but there are individuals who do need medication to help get back on a stable track so that CBT can be an option. 

Some people don't ever use medication and only other areas of treatment, which cool! Works for them. That would clearly be your go-to, which is fine. But there are many others in the world who benefit from short-term and long-term medication use, alongside other treatment strategies. There is not a one size fits all strategy with these things. That's why there are professionals who are trained to know the best strategies for each patient. 

Edited by BeccaKirstyn
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11 hours ago, JoCa said:

Are you serious? Are you trolling?

The article was written Sept. 28. 2017.  

And I'm a researcher who writes professional journal articles and I've seen plenty of articles written in 2018 that reference articles in 1960s. That's normal, well-established and in fact actually lends more credence to the article as it means the research is more well-established! 

You completely ignored the rest.

Citizens Commission on Human Rights. (n.d.). Real disease vs. mental “disorder.”Retrieved from http://www.cchr.org/quick-facts/real-disease-vs-mental-disorder.html

Pies, R. W. (2011, July 11). Psychiatry’s new brain-mind and the legend of the “chemical imbalance.” Psychiatric Times. Retrieved from http://www.psychiatrictimes.com

Rebuttal please?

 

5a8c50e3b8e70_ScreenShot2018-02-20at11_45_37AM.thumb.png.ede27a5126be005f9735e0615c4248c9.pngThis is a reputable source on your topic.

Edited by BeccaKirstyn
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I'm not saying "professionals" don't or can't help . . .what I am saying is they don't know why these things occur.  Without knowing the why, you are literally taking stabs in the dark as to how to fix it.  This is exactly why people go to energy healing, or any other number of outside the mainstream issue, b/c the mainstream doesn't have a freaking clue as to why.

What I'm saying is going to a "professional" and expecting them to give you a pill that will make all your troubles go away is fool-hardy.  Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't, some people find help in energy healing for emotional problems, others find help in shamanic journies, others find help in any other number of issues.  Limiting the spectrum of help to only "professionals" is horrible.  If they actually knew why that would be one thing . . .but they don't know why and you can't solve a problem if you don't know exactly why.

Hence, my reference that modern psycology is about as good in helping as blood-letting was in the 1700s.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, we only hear about when it works so people want to need to believe it works so they have confirmation bias . . .all the while ignoring the umpteen thousands upon thousands of instances where going to a professional didn't do jack.

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7 minutes ago, JoCa said:

Umm. That's exactly what I've been saying.  I really don't understand the conflict here. Please enlighten me.

The conflict is in the material you were citing. "Psychology Today" and other related websites are not reputable or reliable, and thus if used to back up your theory will be received badly by others. 

And this article semi-supports your argument. It agrees that the pharmaceutical companies have profited off of this false "chemical imbalance" theory, but that there is still a need for a biopsychosocial approach to treatment. Which still includes the inclusion of medication if necessary. 

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1 minute ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

The conflict is in the material you were citing. "Psychology Today" and other related websites are not reputable or reliable, and thus if used to back up your theory will be received badly by others. 

And this article semi-supports your argument. It agrees that the pharmaceutical companies have profited off of this false "chemical imbalance" theory, but that there is still a need for a biopsychosocial approach to treatment. Which still includes the inclusion of medication if necessary. 

Why do you say they aren't reputable?  The articles are written by Phds in the field.

This is ludicrous. You have PhDs in the field writing these articles. You "claim" it's not reputable, what evidence do you have to back up that claim . . .besides the fact you don't like them.

Edited by JoCa
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2 minutes ago, JoCa said:

I'm not saying "professionals" don't or can't help . . .what I am saying is they don't know why these things occur.  Without knowing the why, you are literally taking stabs in the dark as to how to fix it.  This is exactly why people go to energy healing, or any other number of outside the mainstream issue, b/c the mainstream doesn't have a freaking clue as to why.

What I'm saying is going to a "professional" and expecting them to give you a pill that will make all your troubles go away is fool-hardy.  Maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't, some people find help in energy healing for emotional problems, others find help in shamanic journies, others find help in any other number of issues.  Limiting the spectrum of help to only "professionals" is horrible.  If they actually knew why that would be one thing . . .but they don't know why and you can't solve a problem if you don't know exactly why.

Hence, my reference that modern psycology is about as good in helping as blood-letting was in the 1700s.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, we only hear about when it works so people want to need to believe it works so they have confirmation bias . . .all the while ignoring the umpteen thousands upon thousands of instances where going to a professional didn't do jack.

No one knows exactly how the brain works. Psychology researchers and continuously looking to figure out the etiology of all diagnoses. But we have found treatment strategies that have good outcomes supported by reputable research. It is a continuously changing field as new technology allows us to fully understand the brain and the body.

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2 minutes ago, JoCa said:

Why do you say they aren't reputable?  The articles are written by Phds in the field.

This is ludicrous. You have PhDs in the field writing these articles. You "claim" it's not reputable, what evidence do you have to back up that claim . . .besides the fact you don't like them.

PhD does not equal "reputable". Anyone can get a PhD with enough money. Doesn't mean you are up to date on relevant training and are currently licensed (especially within clinical psychology). 

That's why I showed you an APA accredited, peer-reviewed journal article. This is the way that we find reputable evidence in the field of psychology. 

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1 minute ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

No one knows exactly how the brain works. Psychology researchers and continuously looking to figure out the etiology of all diagnoses. But we have found treatment strategies that have good outcomes supported by reputable research. It is a continuously changing field as new technology allows us to fully understand the brain and the body.

Very good!! We are in agreement, i.e. the proper response to anyone is "I don't know why you have xyz" and yes you are a guinea pig on the wheel of medicine.

I have a suggestion . . .maybe you should entire nueroscience . . .something that actually has, like you know science backing it up, instead of an absolutely morally corrupt philosophy.

ALL the founding father's of psycology were atheist.  The very foundation it is built upon is a lie.

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