The Mesoamerica Model's Setting For The Book of Mormon, Its One Major Flaw

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, rameumptom said:

In Mesoamerica, there are jungles, mountains, deserts and large bodies of water that can separate people. Most scholars believe the Nephites in the BoM were in a 250 mile area. Jaredites would have been north of that. It may be the Nephites were aware of other nations around them, for matters of trade, but not much else. That isn't an uncommon thing in a world of little communication, etc. Besides, most Jaredites were wiped out while the Nephites were in the far south Land of Nephi, prior to their coming to the land of Zarahemla.

The book of Omni suggests the people of Zarahemla were aware of the Jaredites. Coriantumr dwelt with them for 9 months. Besides that, it seems the Mulekites may have lived on the edge of the Jaredites for a few centuries, as they had forgotten their language and religion, and fled south of the narrow neck of land because of war. Was that Jaredite wars they were fleeing? Once the Nephites move in with the Mulekites, Jaredite names begin to appear and be common in the record, suggesting Jaredite influence on the Mulekites.

So, it isn't as cut and dried as one would think.

Well, thats certainly open for debate. The Book of Mormon describes the land northward to be of great distance. I hardly think a few days walk is a great distance. The Mulekites make no mention of any other people besides running into Coriantumr. Whats interesting is that until Mosiah translates the records of the Jaredites and publishes that account among the people no Jaredite names show up in their population. Thats similar to our day where until the BoM was translated, no BoM names showed up amongst the early Mormomns. The source of the Jaredite names amongst the Nephites was through the translated record, not a tribe of Jaredites that escaped death.

[mikegriffith]

I think the Mesoamerica model is the only one that fits the BOM's internal geography, not to mention its culture, warfare patterns, etc.

[Crash]

I gave great study on this topic years ago. First, we have been warned not to assume that the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon was Panama. Second, the majority of ruins in Central and South America are dated as post 400 AD. Watch Ancient Ruins of America with Jack H West.

Third, early church leaders like Parley P Pratt, who taught the school of the prophets, said that the Hill Cumorah in the BofM is the same Hill Cumorah we know in modern day New York State, and that the Nephites and Lamanites resided in what is now modern day North America. American Indians and anthropologists also teach of a massive ancient city in the Illinois area and that they taught 10 commandments or rules to live by, what we know as the Ten Commandments given to Moses. I have books on ancient sites around North America, including the mass graves dating back 2,000 years or more. Also, is it any coincidence to others that the Anasazi  in the Four Corners area disappeared around 400 AD?

Fourth, the lands in the Western Hemisphere were dramatically changed at the time of the crucifixion. The narrow neck of land could easily have been the space between Florida and Cuba. The truth is, we just don't know. 

There is a series of quotes from early church leaders affirming that North America is the geographical location of the Book of Mormon. I'll need to dig them up. Also, Central and South America are not the lands the Lord promised to set above all other lands in the last days, the same land He sent Lehi and his family to. North America is.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Crash

[Anddenex]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:18 PM, Crash said:

Also, is it any coincidence to others that the Anasazi  in the Four Corners area disappeared around 400 AD?

"The Anasazi ("Ancient Ones"), thought to be ancestors of the modern Pueblo Indians, inhabited the Four Corners country of southern Utah, southwestern Colorado, northwestern New Mexico, and northern Arizona from about A.D. 200 to A.D. 1300"

Are you referring to a different Anasazi?

[Crash]

5 hours ago, Anddenex said:

"The Anasazi ("Ancient Ones"), thought to be ancestors of the modern Pueblo Indians, inhabited the Four Corners country of southern Utah, southwestern Colorado, northwestern New Mexico, and northern Arizona from about A.D. 200 to A.D. 1300"

Are you referring to a different Anasazi?

My time line is probably messed up. But I do find this very interesting. My personal theory, not based on any fact whatsoever, is that the Anasazi became a righteous people and were taken up by the Lord. Their mysterious disappearance is fascinating to me. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Crash

[Rob Osborn]

My belief is the Anasazi were the Nephites who went into the land northward and built houses of cement.

[BJ64]

This is an old topic and I admit that I did not take time to read through the entire thread but I would like to state my opinion. 

First I will say that I recognize that we do not know exactly where Book of Mormon events took place for the most part. 

However, I would tell any Book of Mormon scholar or BYU professor of religion or anyone else that if you believe that the Book of Mormon took place anywhere south of the US border you simply do not know the Book of Mormon or the prophet Joseph Smith. It is plain from its reading that this land, the US is the promised land. Not Mexico or Central America. 

There is nothing in Book of Mormon geography that conflicts with a US location. 

[wenglund]

For those who favor the North America Book of Mormon setting, where do you suppose the Jaredites and Lehi and his family landed, and how did they get there given the currents:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BJ64]

26 minutes ago, wenglund said:

For those who favor the North America Book of Mormon setting, where do you suppose the Jaredites and Lehi and his family landed, and how did they get there given the currents:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The Jaredites the upper east coast of North America. The family of Lehi perhaps the gulf coast or southern east coast. 

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

if you believe that the Book of Mormon took place anywhere south of the US border you simply do not know the Book of Mormon or the prophet Joseph Smith. It is plain from its reading that this land, the US is the promised land. Not Mexico or Central America.

Well now, this is a wonderful opinion.

[wenglund]

6 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

The Jaredites the upper east coast of North America. The family of Lehi perhaps the gulf coast or southern east coast. 

How did they get to those locations from the southern end of the Arabian Peninsula (note the direction of the currents)?  

Did they supposedly float around the southern tip of South America or the Southern tip of Africa in order to get to the eastern coast of North America??

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BJ64]

2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Well now, this is a wonderful opinion.

Well, it’s the truth in my opinion. Whenever I hear someone start talking about meso America I roll my eyes and think oh my goodness you really don’t know the Book of Mormon do you? 

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Well, it’s the truth in my opinion. Whenever I hear someone start talking about meso America I roll my eyes and think oh my goodness you really don’t know the Book of Mormon do you? 

I would guess there are many people who hold to a Mesoamerican model and who know the Book of Mormon a great deal better than you.

[BJ64]

1 minute ago, wenglund said:

How did they get to those locations from the southern end of the Arabian Peninsula (note the direction of the currents)?  

Did they supposedly float around the southern tip of South America or the Southern tip of Africa in order to get to the eastern coast of North America??

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The Jaredites likely came by way of the Mediterranean Sea and the  strait of Gibraltar. Their journey is very detailed as to how they made two journeys and crossed two bodies of water. 

[BJ64]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

I would guess there are many people who hold to a Mesoamerican model and who know the Book of Mormon a great deal better than you.

I would not be sure if that. 

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Well, it’s the truth in my opinion.

This is another opinion on what you understand Joseph Smith's words to be.  Adding "truth" to an opinion doesn't change that it is still an opinion. I have read convincing arguments from people who are well studied in the Book of Mormon that would share "It is the 'truth' in their opinion" that causes them to role their eyes when people think it was only North America.

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Well, it’s the truth in my opinion. Whenever I hear someone start talking about meso America I roll my eyes and think oh my goodness you really don’t know the Book of Mormon do you? 

Have you read any of the scholarly studies that would presumably make your eyes roll? And, if so, what are your specific objections?

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[BJ64]

4 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

This is another opinion on what you understand Joseph Smith's words to be.  Adding "truth" to an opinion doesn't change that it is still an opinion. I have read convincing arguments from people who are well studied in the Book of Mormon that would share "It is the 'truth' in their opinion" that causes them to role their eyes when people think it was only North America.

I suppose you believe that the translator of the Book of Mormon was too stupid to know what he was talking about when he pointed out locations. 

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I suppose you believe that the translator of the Book of Mormon was too stupid to know what he was talking about when he pointed out locations. 

It appears you enjoy your opinions as well as assumptions now. So when someone points out your opinion, your reaction is to assume I would call Joseph Smith stupid? Interesting.

EDIT: Let's have fun with this logic. From your profile picture and from my profile picture, I suppose you are a little hurt that I am better looking than you.

I mean we can all have our opinions and assumptions. They don't help though.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Anddenex

[wenglund]

4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

The Jaredites likely came by way of the Mediterranean Sea and the  strait of Gibraltar. Their journey is very detailed as to how they made two journeys and crossed two bodies of water. 

That doesn't seem plausible given the current patterns in the Mediterranean sea:

Besides, there are several large bodies of water going from the southern end of ancient Babylonia to either coast of the American continent (Persian Gulf, Indian Ocean, Pacific Ocean, etc.)

What about Lehi and his family?

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

[wenglund]

17 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I suppose you believe that the translator of the Book of Mormon was too stupid to know what he was talking about when he pointed out locations. 

I also asked about Lehi''s journey. Here is a proposed trail to the southern end of the Arabian Peninsula:

And here is Lehi;s proposed journey by water (which fits the direction of currents):

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[BJ64]

6 hours ago, Anddenex said:

It appears you enjoy your opinions as well as assumptions now. So when someone points out your opinion, your reaction is to assume I would call Joseph Smith stupid? Interesting.

EDIT: Let's have fun with this logic. From your profile picture and from my profile picture, I suppose you are a little hurt that I am better looking than you.

I mean we can all have our opinions and assumptions. They don't help though.

You didn’t answer my question. Don’t you think Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about when he pointed out Book of Mormon locations?

[BJ64]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

That doesn't seem plausible given the current patterns in the Mediterranean sea:

Besides, there are several large bodies of water going from the southern end of ancient Babylonia to either coast of the American continent (Persian Gulf, Indian Ocean, Pacific Ocean, etc.)

What about Lehi and his family?

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

They were brought here by the Lord. Ether 6:5 And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

[BJ64]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

What about Lehi and his family?

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

Perhaps around the south of Africa then in a northwest direction to North America. That’s a much shorter route that all the way around the other way across the Pacific Ocean and to the west coast of America. It would be a safer journey as well since there would be less open sea to cross. 

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

You didn’t answer my question. Don’t you think Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about when he pointed out Book of Mormon locations?

A question usually ends with the following symbol "?".  Here is your statement, " I suppose you believe that the translator of the Book of Mormon was too stupid to know what he was talking about when he pointed out locations." This wasn't a question, this statement was an assumption.

I personally believe the statement as to where the Book of Mormon took place are similar to the Journal of Discourses. We have multiple statements from early Church leaders referring to the Book of Mormon history both in North, Central, and South America. A quick search points out Joseph Smith said Zarahemla was in Guatemala (although this quote is not sure if it is John Taylor or Joseph Smith).

FairMormon provides a decent quick study as to what was taught in early Church history by different leaders. If Joseph Smith truly provided this quote, and not John Taylor, "1842 Oct., Joseph Smith or John Taylor, Central American setting ***[W]e have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Central America, or Guatimala [Guatemala], is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.-The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon this land as will be seen from the following words in the book of Alma…It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where the Nephites left them:" (Source)

What is more intriguing is that these individuals actually knew Joseph Smith, you and I did not. These individual had private conversation with Joseph Smith, you and I did not. These individuals despite their close proximity and relation still taught the Book of Mormon history was not just in the US.

Quote

1841 Sept., taught by Wilford Woodruff, Central American setting *** “I felt truly interested in this work for it brought to light a flood of testimony in proof of the book of mormon in the discovery & survey of the city Copan in Central America…” 27

Unless of course you don't think Wilford Woodruff knew the Book of Mormon and the words of Joseph Smith like you say you do. I would say, Wilford Woodruff was definitely more acquainted with Joseph Smith's words than you and I.

This is my stance, "At this moment, I am good with the possibility of both. The mound builders in North America are very intriguing. The new discovery of Mayan population is also very intriguing especially since one anti argument was the size of population discussed in the Book of Mormon and people saying there was never that many people on this continent, and again they stick their foot in their mouth. "

And this, "The "limited" Mesoamerican Model doesn't appear to be complete (IMHO). The reason why I say this is that we do have a quote or statement from Joseph Smith regarding Nephites in North America (United States), or at least I thought we do."

 

Edited May 12, 2018 by Anddenex