The Mesoamerica Model's Setting For The Book of Mormon, Its One Major Flaw


Rob Osborn
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6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And yet, everyone discounts South America because of distances. Funny thing is that no distance is ever alluded to between the Land of Nephi in the land south and the Land of Desolation other than it was a very great distance.

Something to consider is that there were other ancient civilizations in the America’s at the same time period of the Book of Mormon. Therefore a ruin alone is not evidence of a Book of Mormon location. 

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8 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Something to consider is that there were other ancient civilizations in the America’s at the same time period of the Book of Mormon. Therefore a ruin alone is not evidence of a Book of Mormon location. 

Are you saying that because your history class at school taught you that or that's what you read in the Book of Mormon?

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8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Are you saying that because your history class at school taught you that or that's what you read in the Book of Mormon?

I’m saying that anthropologists tell us and the church recognizes this as well. The introduction to the Book of Mormon has been changed to reflect this and in a recent regional stake Conference President Nelson said that the Book of Mormon is a history of some of the ancient inhabitants of America. 

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4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I’m saying that anthropologists tell us and the church recognizes this as well. The introduction to the Book of Mormon has been changed to reflect this and in a recent regional stake Conference President Nelson said that the Book of Mormon is a history of some of the ancient inhabitants of America. 

The church doesn't officially recognize there were other civilizations alongside the BoM people's. Anthroplogosits outside of BYU have just what to say exactly about the Book of Mormon? Pretty much nothing, say it's a work of fiction. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon

Either the BoM is a fraud or anthropologists dont really know ancient American history.

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The church doesn't officially recognize there were other civilizations alongside the BoM people's. 

From the gospel topic essays. 

The Book of Mormon itself, however, does not claim that the peoples it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied. In fact, cultural and demographic clues in its text hint at the presence of other groups. At the April 1929 general conference, President Anthony W. Ivins of the First Presidency cautioned: “We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon … does not tell us that there was no one here before them [the peoples it describes]. It does not tell us that people did not come after.”

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The church doesn't officially recognize there were other civilizations alongside the BoM people's. 

From the gospel topic essays. 

The 2006 update to the introduction of the Book of Mormon reflects this understanding by stating that Book of Mormon peoples were “among the ancestors of the American Indians.”

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The church doesn't officially recognize there were other civilizations alongside the BoM people's. 

From the gospel topic essays. 

Nothing is known about the extent of intermarriage and genetic mixing between Book of Mormon peoples or their descendants and other inhabitants of the Americas, though some mixing appears evident, even during the period covered by the book’s text. What seems clear is that the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples likely represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America.

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The church doesn't officially recognize there were other civilizations alongside the BoM people's. 

From the gospel topic essays. 

The evidence assembled to date suggests that the majority of Native Americans carry largely Asian DNA. Scientists theorize that in an era that predated Book of Mormon accounts, a relatively small group of people migrated from northeast Asia to the Americas by way of a land bridge that connected Siberia to Alaska. These people, scientists say, spread rapidly to fill North and South America and were likely the primary ancestors of modern American Indians.

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25 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

From the gospel topic essays. 

The Book of Mormon itself, however, does not claim that the peoples it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied. In fact, cultural and demographic clues in its text hint at the presence of other groups. At the April 1929 general conference, President Anthony W. Ivins of the First Presidency cautioned: “We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon … does not tell us that there was no one here before them [the peoples it describes]. It does not tell us that people did not come after.”

The church recognizes there "may" have been other civilizations, not that there were in fact others.

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25 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

From the gospel topic essays. 

The 2006 update to the introduction of the Book of Mormon reflects this understanding by stating that Book of Mormon peoples were “among the ancestors of the American Indians.”

"Among the ancestors" leaves a lot to be defined.

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24 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

From the gospel topic essays. 

Nothing is known about the extent of intermarriage and genetic mixing between Book of Mormon peoples or their descendants and other inhabitants of the Americas, though some mixing appears evident, even during the period covered by the book’s text. What seems clear is that the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples likely represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America.

The essay also states they arent sure who came after the Lamanites. Genetic mixing was possible from groups who may have came after.

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22 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

From the gospel topic essays. 

The evidence assembled to date suggests that the majority of Native Americans carry largely Asian DNA. Scientists theorize that in an era that predated Book of Mormon accounts, a relatively small group of people migrated from northeast Asia to the Americas by way of a land bridge that connected Siberia to Alaska. These people, scientists say, spread rapidly to fill North and South America and were likely the primary ancestors of modern American Indians.

The essay states "scientists" believe this, not necessarily the church.

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I guess then that this scripture is referring to Mexico or Guatemala?

1 Nephi 13:30 Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.

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Perhaps this verse is a prophecy about Nicaragua, Venezuela or Colombia? 

 

2 Nephi 1:7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever.

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Sounds like the Yucatán peninsula to me! 

2 Nephi 10:19 Wherefore, I will consecrate this land unto thy seed, and them who shall be numbered among thy seed, forever, for the land of their inheritance; for it is a choice land, saith God unto me, above all other lands, wherefore I will have all men that dwell thereon that they shall worship me, saith God.

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Joseph Smith named Jackson county Missouri the site of the new Jerusalem not Mexico  

 

Ether 13:2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;
3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.

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New Jerusalem in Missouri  

D&C 84

2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.

3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

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The Nephites lived in the land where the New Jerusalem will be built. 

3 Nephi 20:22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

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Another passage about Mexico I presume. 

2 Nephi 10:11 And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.
12 And I will fortify this land against all other nations.
13 And he that fighteth against Zion shall perish, saith God.

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On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:05 AM, wenglund said:

How did they get to those locations from the southern end of the Arabian Peninsula (note the direction of the currents)?  

Did they supposedly float around the southern tip of South America or the Southern tip of Africa in order to get to the eastern coast of North America??

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

A simple answer is that they didn't go from the Southern end of the Arabian Peninsula.  The Arabian Peninsula popular opinion held by Mormon scholars (and no one else, no one even hypothesizes one went from the Arabian Peninsula, though there IS some evidence of those coming from the Asian coasts and even the islands of the Pacific as well as from European coasts) but not necessarily how it happened.  They focus on one statement (and not an extremely WELL documented one either) from Joseph Smith and ignore others that he stated in their theories (which is also why they focus on the Yucatan peninsula instead of accepting the more well documented ideas where Joseph stated that the Nephite and Lamanite population engulfed all of the North American continent) to the exclusion of all others in regards to their theories in many instances. 

The Book of Mormon states that they went due East for 8 years.  They either went a VERY short distance in 8 years (and probably were massacred if the culture of the tribes in Arabia at the time is accurate, they couldn't have stayed that long in one area...but that's not something Mormon scholars like to see) OR they didn't follow the route that Mormon Scholars say they did.  If they followed the route Joseph initially indicated they followed (which actually was NOT deep into the Arabian Peninsula, though third party sources would say that he said otherwise) and then due east, other theories actually come to light. 

IF, they went from the Southern end of the Arabian peninsula, there ARE NO CURRENTS TO the Americas.  You would have to jump currents which leaves several hundreds of miles where it is very unlikely they did so without more modern conveniences (which is something Mormon scholars also include and could be plausible as Nephi was instructed of the Lord rather than by ship building methods of his day).  The currents go from East Asia to the Americas and from Europe and Africa.  There is no connection from Arabia.

The proposed currents posted above actually do NOT make any sense in regards to the actual currents in the Ocean.  Several LONG leaps between currents would have had to be made.  It wasn't until the past several hundred years where our own technology even made it possible for US to leap those currents, much less those from 600 BC.  On the otherhand, it's been shown the currents from East Asia and the Pacific Islands at least had the possibilities...and it's been shown that there were currents from Europe (though not necessarily the Mediterranean, though the Greeks DID have technology to scale from one end of the Mediterranean to the other and the Romans even more so) to the Americas as well which enabled ancient technology at least almost a millennia ago to make that voyage.

So, with the Lord's help it is possible from Arabia, though it is irony that the LDS scholars use this approach.  There IS evidence in Indiana and Ohio of seafarers that came to the Americas via the sea but this evidence (as well as others regarding the Pacific Islands) have largely been ignored by LDS scholars in regards to Book of Mormon plausibility and evidence due to their extreme focus on the Arabian Peninsula theory.

 

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