Welfare: Church and Government


Doorman
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30 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Bullfeathers.  you don't know that and neither does he.

You seem to be missing the part where I said that, per my dad, this was not a conclusion he drew, but something the Spirit taught him.  I don't know what experience brought about that teaching, but as he was relating to me the lesson he learned, the Spirit also bore witness to me that it was true.  So while everyone is different, and the Spirit may lead each of us in different directions, for my mom and dad, the lesson was "trust and obey the Lord and you'll be blessed".

Interestingly, this is the "Nephite Promise" found all over the scriptures (obey and prosper) and President Kimball decided to write a book on the topic (Faith Precedes the Miracle).

Just because another person's blessings are different from yours doesn't make them any less real.

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23 hours ago, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

I tend to view assistance of any kind as analogous to getting a cast and crutch after breaking a leg. At first the cast and crutch may be a necessity and benefit, but as conditions improve with the leg, they may eventually turn into an unnecessary liability. The leg bone needs support to start properly healing, but at some point the bone needs to begin taking on weight and eventually take on all the normal weight to complete the healing process and to stand on its own. Otherwise, the leg will become overly and perhaps continually dependent on the cast and crutch, and lose its normal strength.

Unfortunately, with finances, we don't have doctors to advise us when to let go of the crutch and finally get rid of the cast. However, we do have prayer and spiritual leaders to lean on, and good folks on this board.

If it is of any consolation, my current Bishop gave me some excellent advise several months ago when I was near the precipice of a financial catastrophe that threatened to compromise my spiritual growth. He said, "Trust the Lord, Wade." He actually said it twice to underscore the point. And, I took him to mean that I should not only trust the Lord, but also trust my spiritual leaders as well as, and perhaps personally most important, trust myself.

That advise, along with the counsel from an astute priesthood instructor made a profound and positive  difference in my spiritual life. 

The thing is, while miracles did occur, I am still on the verge of financial calamity, and may have moved even closer to the edge, but I am at peace and confident that all will work out well in the end--which peace is priceless. , And, I also feel much better about myself.

I hope this helps, and welcome to the board.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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I think the ‘when to have kids decision’ and whether or not to request government assistance is a matter for personal revelation. In my area  many people report feeling judged over when/ number of kids, Mom works or stays home, and where to educate the kids. If someone is inactive, they frequently cite a conflict with members of the church in one of these areas. Apparently a generation ago, Relief society presidents and random sisters felt that they had the right to offer unsolicited advice in this arena. We can trace the loss of whole families back to these disputes. 

Edited by Sunday21
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2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Your gonna have to show me the quote where I said that.  Read what I said very carefully, did I say what I am being accused of or did I pose a question?

 

Here ya go...

7 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Lets back into the OP's problem. Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. 

 

2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

When the brethren ask us to not delay having families we need to read between the line a little. It's called being a responsible adult.

Yes.  And they have stated explicitly that neither educational pursuits nor career pursuits are causes to delay having families which means your "putting the carriage before the horse" caricature of the OPs situation is false as they are not valid reasons that detract him from being a responsible adult.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

They actually ARE evil conspiracies.  Look what "entitlements" have done to the black community in the US.  They have created dependency where none existed before. 

That's not the correlation.  It's not the government assistance that broke the black community.  It's the QUALIFICATION to receive government assistance.  To qualify for assistance, there has to be no father in the home.  So, what happened... fathers got kicked out of homes.

 

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I think it's morally reprehensible that any member of the church would deliberately put himself/herself in the position of taking government or any other assistance.

Think Venezuela.

Yeah, because members of the church actually plan on getting married and having kids so they can DELIBERATELY  put themselves in the position of asking the government or the church for assistance.  It's right up there in the YW motto of marrying a returned missionary.  smh.

 

Edited by anatess2
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9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yeah, because members of the church actually plan on getting married and having kids so they can DELIBERATELY  put themselves in the position of asking the government or the church for assistance.  It's right up there in the YW motto of marrying a returned missionary.  smh.

 

I remember, it was a very close decision for me between going to law school and becoming a welfare dad.  There are still days when I feel I made the wrong choice. :D

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5 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I remember, it was a very close decision for me between going to law school and becoming a welfare dad.  There are still days when I feel I made the wrong choice. :D

What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

...aw, never mind. Those jokes aren't really very funny anyway...

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

What's the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

...aw, never mind. Those jokes aren't really very funny anyway...

What's the difference between a jellyfish and a lawyer?  

One is a spineless, poisonous blob.  The other is a form of sea life.

 

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

They arent evil. Lazy and/or evil people take advantage of others but the systembitself isnt evil. There is no instance where Satan says "feed the hungry, help the poor, and clothe the naked". Its the opposite- let them starve, make them more poor, and let them stay naked.

Actually, they are evil.

Any system that encourages people to take from others as a "safety net" for themselves bespeaks a lack of moral fiber.  I mentioned Venezuela for a reason.  It was once the richest per capita nation in South America.  Now it's the poorest and if one reads the news, people are apparently going without enough food.  I don't feel sorry for them because they voted for it.  But socialism is evil no matter how it's dressed up.  No matter who votes for it.  Politicians are using socialism as a vote buying scheme.  they are also evil. 

You're correct about satan,  He doesn't want people to have a good life.  And he invented socialism IMNSHO.

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3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

 

 

 

Yes.  And they have stated explicitly that neither educational pursuits nor career pursuits are causes to delay having families which means your "putting the carriage before the horse" caricature of the OPs situation is false as they are not valid reasons that detract him from being a responsible adult.

 

 

 

I think if one asked a GA as to whether one should go on welfare to marry and have children, the answer would be in the negative. 

So much GA advice is taken out of context, or interpreted without using any common sense.  Witness OP.

Edited by mrmarklin
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

That's not the correlation.  It's not the government assistance that broke the black community.  It's the QUALIFICATION to receive government assistance.  To qualify for assistance, there has to be no father in the home.  So, what happened... fathers got kicked out of homes.

 

 

 

Actually it is the correlation.  Why are there so many baby-daddies?  AFDC created this.  I submit to you it is a government creation.  People will always pick the path of least resistance.

Of course, it's not just black people.  Many others succumb to the easy way.

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4 hours ago, zil said:

You seem to be missing the part where I said that, per my dad, this was not a conclusion he drew, but something the Spirit taught him.  I don't know what experience brought about that teaching, but as he was relating to me the lesson he learned, the Spirit also bore witness to me that it was true.  So while everyone is different, and the Spirit may lead each of us in different directions, for my mom and dad, the lesson was "trust and obey the Lord and you'll be blessed".

Interestingly, this is the "Nephite Promise" found all over the scriptures (obey and prosper) and President Kimball decided to write a book on the topic (Faith Precedes the Miracle).

Just because another person's blessings are different from yours doesn't make them any less real.

I don't mean to cast aspersions on your dad's character, but as I hear many of this sort of story in the church, I take it with a healthy dose of skepticism.  I certainly don't live my life and haven't, without making common sense decisions about marriage, when I had my children, career etc.  I trust the Lord too......and take a lot of His advice about preparedness etc. 

I can say I've been very blessed with great kids, grandchildren and financially as well.  I pay taxes in the six digits to give you an idea of my "blessings", among the worldly ones.

Edited by mrmarklin
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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

I think if one asked a GA as to whether one should go on welfare to marry and have children, the answer would be in the negative. 

So much advice is taken out of context, or interpreted without using any common sense.  Witness OP.

The umbrage is in you and omega's claim that the OP got on welfare BECAUSE they got married and had children when they did and that they knew and/or planned being on government assistance.  

Your common sense is not common nor has sense.  Like I said.  Only First World people thinks they can't afford to have children.  Bill Gates even had a video explaining this - the more economically successful a society, the more they don't believe they should have children, so according to Bill Gates, the solution to over-population and climate change is to make people more economically successful.

Edited by anatess2
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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

Actually it is the correlation.  Why are there so many baby-daddies?  AFDC created this.  I submit to you it is a government creation.  People will always pick the path of least resistance.

Of course, it's not just black people.  Many others succumb to the easy way.

I have no clue what a baby-daddy is.  Your statement is that "entitlement" caused the breakdown of the black community.  That's what I'm challenging.

People will pick the path of least resistance, yes.  But people are inherently dissatisfied with welfare level prosperity and always desire to be rich.  But you have a community of fatherless children who do not know how to do that having never been mentored by somebody who is an example to them about how to succeed.  They end up doing what they see everybody else is doing - be juvenile delinquents.  That closes the doors to future prosperity and so they quit dreaming about getting out of government assistance especially after listening to this popular black guy telling them it's all the white man's fault.

And yes, this is not just black people.  It's a rare thing to see Asians in this pickle.  There are poor Asians but they have intact families so being on the government dole is always a temporary thing because they learn from their fathers it is not as honorable.

Edited by anatess2
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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

The umbrage is in you and omega's claim that the OP got on welfare BECAUSE they got married and had children when they did and that they knew and/or planned being on government assistance.  

Your common sense is not common nor has sense.  Like I said.  Only First World people thinks they can't afford to have children.  Bill Gates even had a video explaining this - the more economically successful a society, the more they don't believe they should have children, so according to Bill Gates, the solution to over-population and climate change is to make people more economically successful.

You are willfully misunderstanding me. OP stated in his post that he was concerned about getting welfare. But it’s obvious that his actions and decisions put him in the dilemma. I’ll Acquit  him of evil intentions, nevertheless his life decisions have put him in this pickle.  I think his problem could have been eliminated by proper life planning. 

 

You are correct. Common sense is not common.  But I’ve lived in the so called third world, and my wife is from a third world country. It’s true, that many of the indigenous people marry (or not) very young and immediately begin to have children. Yeah, there’s a reason they live in abject poverty. Children raising children is a recipe for no progress.  Some break the cycle, but not many  

 

The other, more affluent of the third world more resemble the US in their matrimonial habits.  I have three nephews in my wife’s country who are waiting until they can afford to marry.  They want children, etc. but realize there’s a time and a place. Common sense is very common there because there is no welfare system to go to if one fails. It’s possible to actually go hungry and live in atrocious conditions. No one wants that. Many of affluent marry fairly young, but dependence on family is also common in this segment of society, including living with in laws etc.  That’s not really the American of first world way. 

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23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I have no clue what a baby-daddy is.  Your statement is that "entitlement" caused the breakdown of the black community.  That's what I'm challenging.

People will pick the path of least resistance, yes.  But people are inherently dissatisfied with welfare level prosperity and always desire to be rich.  But you have a community of fatherless children who do not know how to do that having never been mentored by somebody who is an example to them about how to succeed.  They end up doing what they see everybody else is doing - be juvenile delinquents.  That closes the doors to future prosperity and so they quit dreaming about getting out of government assistance especially after listening to this popular black guy telling them it's all the white man's fault.

And yes, this is not just black people.  It's a rare thing to see Asians in this pickle.  There are poor Asians but they have intact families so being on the government dole is always a temporary thing because they learn from their fathers it is not as honorable.

You’re not knowing what a baby daddy is, is indicative.  Basically, AFDC has enabled a lifestyle that a mother doesn’t care who the father is.  As long as she has more dependents she gets more money. For herself. It’s a selfish way of life, and you’re quite correct, the kids don’t have much chance. But our US government has enabled this way of living. It’s evil.

Of course AFDC people are dissatisfied with their lot in life!  But I never see any of them working. And neither do you.  Do you even know any people like this?  I live near an area where there are many. And nothing has changed in those neighborhoods since 1967 when the “great society “ began.

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On 27/02/2018 at 8:27 AM, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

I you need it, and you're entitled to it, then you should not feel uncomfortable or ashamed of it. 

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1 hour ago, mrmarklin said:

It’s true, that many of the indigenous people marry (or not) very young and immediately begin to have children. Yeah, there’s a reason they live in abject poverty. Children raising children is a recipe for no progress.

How old was Mary when God impregnated her with His Son?

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4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Actually, they are evil.

Any system that encourages people to take from others as a "safety net" for themselves bespeaks a lack of moral fiber.  I mentioned Venezuela for a reason.  It was once the richest per capita nation in South America.  Now it's the poorest and if one reads the news, people are apparently going without enough food.  I don't feel sorry for them because they voted for it.  But socialism is evil no matter how it's dressed up.  No matter who votes for it.  Politicians are using socialism as a vote buying scheme.  they are also evil. 

You're correct about satan,  He doesn't want people to have a good life.  And he invented socialism IMNSHO.

Satan didnt invent socialism. Satan uses any and all governments to suit his will. Evil people are in all governments and thus we see evil in all to some degree.

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