Welfare: Church and Government


Doorman
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Personally, I don't believe anyone is entitled to welfare money.  Qualifying for it is one thing, and I can't really blame anyone who takes the opportunity when they qualify for something.  That said, in general the idea that someone is actually entitled to money or services that are paid for from the forced taxation of other people doesn't seem like an appropriate way to describe accessing and using such a program.

Feeling ashamed of using welfare and assistance programs is a good thing.  The shame and stigma associated with them should be used as a motivator to only use the services for as long as is absolutely necessary, and to continuously work to get to a position financially where they are unnecessary.  Similar to how the shame from sin should be used as a motivator to repent and stay away from sin.  People don't always use their shame to the most correct end.

Edited by person0
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27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

What is this forced taxation anyway? Last time I checked no one was holding a gun to my head or threatened to kill my family if I didnt pay right now. 

Tell that to the Cliven Bundy family.

Sure, no one will hurt you—so long as you comply.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

What is this forced taxation anyway? Last time I checked no one was holding a gun to my head or threatened to kill my family if I didnt pay right now. 

You better check again. While the death penalty is not associated with evading taxes, long jail sentences are.  Do you live in the US?

The IRS can compel compliance with the tax laws.

 

Ask Wesley Snipes.  

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Yeah, you guys have a warped idea of "forced". We arent forced to pay taxes. Its lawful to pay taxes just as its lawful to obey the speed limit. Nobody forces us to obey the speed limit. We voluntarily choose to obey the laws to enjoy the benefits. As part of that law we have placed penalties or infractions in place as an incentive to be obedient. Take Gods kingdom for example- He has made laws and we need to comply if we want to stay there in his kingdom. But, we arent forced to obey. Go start your own country if you think we are being forced against our will. Oh, and good luck with that!

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It is true that we are free and unforced to pick our actions, and consequences flow naturally.  Point to Rob Osborn.

It is also true that humans can get together and provide consequences to others' actions.  In the taxation example, consequences include penalties/fines, harm to credit rating, increased difficulties qualifying for loans or credit cards, and court judgments.  And in the most extreme cases, armed men showing up at your door, imprisoning you against your will, and taking and selling all of your stuff.  Point to all the people arguing with Rob.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:27 PM, Doorman said:

So I have been wrestling with this for a long time now. I’m a full time college student, married, first kid on the way. My wife and I love pretty frugally. 

Currently we have quite a bit of money, but with the baby coming rather soon, counseling my wife and I are attending, medical tests I need to get done eventually (been putting off because of a lack of money), we will run out of money pretty quick.

I work full time currently and can’t really feasibly add more hours. 

We currently have WIC and Medicaid... this is where my wrestle comes in. I have always believed strongly in self reliance. Financial difficulty has always been my biggest fear and we are creeping up to it.

So Thoughts concerning government and church aid. What is the difference? Why does government have such a negative connotation. I know Ezra Taft Bensen and many other church leaders have stated pretty clearly that we are not to take government handouts... how does this differ from church welfare?

I always feel uncomfortable when I think of our WIP and Medicaid... should we get rid of it?

 

The great secret of life is not where you currently are or what you are currently doing – rather the secret to joy and happiness is where you are going and what you are doing now will open up for you to do in the future.   The wrong things will lead to dependences and bondages – the right things will lead to freedom and independence.  You should not have to ask others things that you know of deep down inside you.

 

The Traveler

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11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

What is this forced taxation anyway? Last time I checked no one was holding a gun to my head or threatened to kill my family if I didnt pay right now. 

 

A gun to someone’s head may not be the best way to “force”, cause or coerce someone to do something they do not intend or would not otherwise choose on their own.  For example, it is more likely to be successful; to beguile someone as was Eve in Eden and then coerce as was Adam in order to remain with Eve.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, you guys have a warped idea of "forced". We arent forced to pay taxes. Its lawful to pay taxes just as its lawful to obey the speed limit. Nobody forces us to obey the speed limit. We voluntarily choose to obey the laws to enjoy the benefits. As part of that law we have placed penalties or infractions in place as an incentive to be obedient. Take Gods kingdom for example- He has made laws and we need to comply if we want to stay there in his kingdom. But, we arent forced to obey. Go start your own country if you think we are being forced against our will. Oh, and good luck with that!

In the most technical sense we are not forced to do anything you can pay or not pay but there will be consequences.  I can assure you that when you get slapped with a tax Levy and the IRS legally seizes your property to satisfy your tax debt ie. garnishing wages, freezing bank accounts, seizing and selling your vehicle's, real estate and other personal property you might feel "forced"

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, you guys have a warped idea of "forced". We arent forced to pay taxes. Its lawful to pay taxes just as its lawful to obey the speed limit. Nobody forces us to obey the speed limit. We voluntarily choose to obey the laws to enjoy the benefits. As part of that law we have placed penalties or infractions in place as an incentive to be obedient. Take Gods kingdom for example- He has made laws and we need to comply if we want to stay there in his kingdom. But, we arent forced to obey. Go start your own country if you think we are being forced against our will. Oh, and good luck with that!

Are you a US resident? 

Even if you're not, you must realize that a little war broke out here in the US  around 1776, and it was all about taxation. 

At some level, I realize people vote for this stuff.  But forced charity is not and should not be the purpose of government.  As I've said earlier, it's a sign of moral decay.  And you're wrong about force.  I am forced to pay taxes and I pay a lot.  I don't really want any time spent at Club Fed away from my family.

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17 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Here ya go...

Yes.  And they have stated explicitly that neither educational pursuits nor career pursuits are causes to delay having families which means your "putting the carriage before the horse" caricature of the OPs situation is false as they are not valid reasons that detract him from being a responsible adult.

You have misconstrued my statement again, another fail.

I agree with the brethren, we should not delay starting or having a family.  IMHO the brethren did not mean for our youth to rush out to get married all willy nilly and become wards of the state. That is what we are talking about here isn't it? 

You want to get married while your in college GREAT! I am all for it, you want to have a kid while your going to school Great! I think that is fantastic. You want to be on WIC, and food stamps and whatever the freebie is for medical care is in other states. NO! NO! NO! how can that be the plan? It cannot be.

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3 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

You have misconstrued my statement again, another fail.

I agree with the brethren, we should not delay starting or having a family.  IMHO the brethren did not mean for our youth to rush out to get married all willy nilly and become wards of the state. That is what we are talking about here isn't it? 

You want to get married while your in college GREAT! I am all for it, you want to have a kid while your going to school Great! I think that is fantastic. You want to be on WIC, and food stamps and whatever the freebie is for medical care is in other states. NO! NO! NO! how can that be the plan? It cannot be.

See the bolded.  That's your own projection.  The OP stated explicitly he did not want to be on government dole.   You stating over and over that he got married and had kids so he can be on the government dole is insulting. 

And stop with that condescension.  You sound like an immature troll.

Edited by anatess2
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32 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See the bolded.  That's your own projection.  The OP stated explicitly he did not want to be on government dole.   You stating over and over that he got married and had kids so he can be on the government dole is insulting. 

What is insulting to me is that you are putting words into my mouth, I never said that the OP did this purposely, I haven't said it over and over again certainly not about the OP and not about anyone else. Show were I said this was being done purposely.  I never said that.

 

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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@anatess2 Go to page one my original statement is still there.  PLEASE show where I am insulting the OP by saying he purposely chose to be on the dole.

On 2/27/2018 at 7:38 AM, omegaseamaster75 said:

Lets back into the OP's problem. Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. 

Look OP the ship has sailed, and you need the Government to step in and help out. It is what it is and you have an obligation to your wife and baby to make sure that they have what they need.  

 

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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16 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I don't mean to cast aspersions on your dad's character, but as I hear many of this sort of story in the church, I take it with a healthy dose of skepticism.  I certainly don't live my life and haven't, without making common sense decisions about marriage, when I had my children, career etc.  I trust the Lord too......and take a lot of His advice about preparedness etc. 

I can say I've been very blessed with great kids, grandchildren and financially as well.  I pay taxes in the six digits to give you an idea of my "blessings", among the worldly ones.

With all due respect, in these sorts of discussions I don’t know that it’s particularly helpful to expect people to be impressed by (in other words, judge) the financial results of our work/education/family trade-offs, unless we are also prepared to allow people to judge the domestic relational results of those same trade-offs (and accept that other people’s judgment of those results may be negative).  

In that vein, I note that you didn’t tell us how many kids you have, the ages at which you bore them, why you didn’t have more kids than you actually have, and who you expect to raise the spirits that you and your wife chose not to bring into mortality.

I mean, if we’re going to be judgmental, why go halfway?

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

 

@anatess2 Go to page one my original statement is still there.  PLEASE show where I am insulting the OP by saying he purposely chose to be on the dole.

 

First sentence on that quote.  "Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. "

And bolded on the one before that.  "You want to be on WIC, and food stamps and whatever the freebie is for medical care is in other states."

 

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

First sentence on that quote.  "Full time college student that's great, but then the OP states "I'm married" and "I have a kid on the way" Whoa stop. This is how we get into these tight spots.  We put the carriage before the horse. "

And bolded on the one before that.  "You want to be on WIC, and food stamps and whatever the freebie is for medical care is in other states."

 

I did not say the OP did this on purpose......keep trying 

Was it a consequence of decisions made. Looks that way.

Edited by omegaseamaster75
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30 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

See the bolded.  That's your own projection.  The OP stated explicitly he did not want to be on government dole.   You stating over and over that he got married and had kids so he can be on the government dole is insulting. 

And stop with that condescension.  You sound like an immature troll.

Your words, not mine I never stated even one time that he got married and had kids so he could be on  the dole.

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33 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And stop with that condescension.  You sound like an immature troll.

You have made an accusation and have failed to back it up. I will apologize for any implied or outward condescension intentional and unintentional.  I await your apology for the false accusation. 

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53 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 

In that vein, I note that you didn’t tell us how many kids you have, the ages at which you bore them, why you didn’t have more kids than you actually have, and who you expect to raise the spirits that you and your wife chose not to bring into mortality.

I mean, if we’re going to be judgmental, why go halfway?

We had four children after waiting 3+ years after we were married.  I had graduated from college and had a career going.  I was not making very much, and certainly did not enjoy the lifestyle I do now.  I was 31 when our last child was born.  We did not have more than four children due to medical advice from doctors that it would not be wise for my wife's health to have any more children. 

I don't know about any spirits that we "chose" not to bring into mortality.  I find this comment nonsensical and insulting.

The road is never easy raising a family, and we struggled with all the usual problems of not enough money etc etc.  But I chose a good profession and as my career matured, so did our lifestyle increase.  I'm able to do for my grandchildren what I did not do for my own children, at least in a monetary way.

Edited by mrmarklin
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8 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I don't know about any spirits that we "chose" not to bring into mortality.  I find this comment nonsensical and insulting.

Fair point.  But surely you can see how people who decided to have children earlier than you did and in more financially straitened circumstances—thus enabling them to provide mortal tabernacles to a larger number of children—might find critiques of their financial choices similarly nonsensical and insulting.

The simple fact is that, like Adam and Eve, we have been given separate pieces of counsel that don’t perfectly line up; and the Church’s current position is to let individual couples try to harmonize that counsel as best they can.  The Church nether condemns people who delay child-rearing, nor those who seek public assistance within the United States of America.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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3 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

You have misconstrued my statement again, another fail.

I agree with the brethren, we should not delay starting or having a family.  IMHO the brethren did not mean for our youth to rush out to get married all willy nilly and become wards of the state. That is what we are talking about here isn't it? 

You want to get married while your in college GREAT! I am all for it, you want to have a kid while your going to school Great! I think that is fantastic. You want to be on WIC, and food stamps and whatever the freebie is for medical care is in other states. NO! NO! NO! how can that be the plan? It cannot be.

It is a plan, because of the fall of the morals and values of yesteryear.  YES...young people SHOULD not delay and start having children...IN MY OPINION.

It used to be that they may be as young as 13 or 14 when this started.  However, it also used to be that families were a LOT closer.  Families would have multi-generational homes with all of them living under the same roof, OR, in some instances where they had lots of property build small homes, multiple homes built on the same property which they all worked.

Parents took care of children and eventually grandchildren but in return, when the parents were old, the children took care of the parents.

Something happened...families did not take care of each other anymore.  People starved.  People died.  Religions didn't offer the charity the did previously. 

Welfare and SS came into being BECAUSE of the great wickedness.  People were selfish.  They did NOT want to share.  They did NOT want to give to the poor.  They felt that what they had was THEIRS.  What they worked for was THEIRS.  The idea that everything they had was given to them by the Lord was a foreign concept.  They did not believe the Lord gave them anything, and instead everything they had in this life was earned by themselves.

Thus, they did not help the poor or needy.  This was amplified in the Great Depression in the US, and this is when many of these social systems came into being.  They were different when they originated (for example, they'd give you work for receiving welfare originally, even if it was simply digging  a ditch in the front of the office and filling it up again).  Later this changed and evolved until in the 60s we got an entirely different type of program for many of these social systems.

This does not mean they are evil, or those who are needy or poor are evil.  In fact, it is more of the thing that as society itself has become evil, we have forgotten the great commands of the Lord.

4th Nephi vs. 2-3

Quote

2 And it came to pass in the thirty and sixth year, the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites, and there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another.

3 And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

D&C 104: 11-18

Quote

11 It is wisdom in me; therefore, a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall organize yourselves and appoint every man his stewardship;

12 That every man may give an account unto me of the stewardship which is appointed unto him.

13 For it is expedient that I, the Lord, should make every man accountable, as a steward over earthly blessings, which I have made and prepared for my creatures.

14 I, the Lord, stretched out the heavens, and built the earth, my very handiwork; and all things therein are mine.

15 And it is my purpose to provide for my saints, for all things are mine.

16 But it must needs be done in mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low.

17 For the earth is full, and there is enough and to spare; yea, I prepared all things, and have given unto the children of men to be agents unto themselves.

18 Therefore, if any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion, according to the law of my gospel, unto the poor and the needy, he shall, with the wicked, lift up his eyes in hell, being in torment.

But as we have not been righteous enough or loving enough to fulfill these commandments, other things have come into being.  Even the LDS church these days have instances where the LEADERS are advised to help individuals in need seek government assistance.  These are programs to help those in need as there is a distinct lack of charity from our fellow men.  Even fast offerings and other items that the church leaders use to help the poor and needy in the ward are NOT enough to help and satisfy all the needs within a ward these days.  This is the reason at times when church leaders have been given advice (and in some instances, instructions on how to do this if they need to) on having members turn to government assistance.

Even without that, the Lord instructed us in regards to the church and the government...

Matthew 22:17-21

Quote

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Cæsar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Cæsar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Cæsar the things which are Cæsar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones
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