Gun Violence and the decline of Marriage, Family and Community


Rob Osborn
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I find it quite startling that the cry for gun control, in light of the recent school shooting, tops the list for creating change. Is everyone blind? Are we so caught up in our own little worlds that we cant see the root cause of gun violence? Not very many headlines are popping up that are saying we need to fix Marriage, family and community, in that order, if we want to ever get a handle on gun violence. Im truly baffled! When we speak of all the "red flags" that popped up in each shooting its always the question of "what was their home life like?" But then in the next breath we start shouting "what are we doing about gun control?". So, if we know its the home thats the problem why arent we doing something about home reform instead of gun reform? Americans have always owned lots of guns- its part of our culture and history. But, that was never an issue until we started seeing the breakdown of marriage, family, and community (thanks to our fathers hippie generation). So now, we have this paramount problem where children are growing up in single parent homes, broken families, and communities that dont care to help and serve in their communities and combined with access to guns that have always been around it creates a volatile scenerio for extreme viloent acts. But, not just by guns either. Violence and related criminal activity are all up across the boards. Kids are going to extremes- engaging in rampant and sometimes violent sex parties, playing deadly games, pursuing stronger drugs like meth and heroine, etc. We are truly creating monsters! But whos directly to blame? Its not Washington, its our own marriages, our own families and homes, our own communities. Its our own personal responsibilities. We need to stop blaming Washington and the NRA for the dire situation we created. Do we want change? Then step up-  first recognizing God in all things, then if you are married then start again to try harder to love your spouse and serve them with full purpose of heart. If you are in a family (who isnt?), start afresh to strengthen the bonds of friendship and connectiveness and serve them with full purposness of heart. If you live in a community(who doesnt?) Then start over to work harder serving in your community, making more connections with others seeking out those who need picking up and do something. Thats how we stop gun violence, thats how we stop the root cause of all our ills.

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

 Is everyone blind? 

Only leftists.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Are we so caught up in our own little worlds that we cant see the root cause of gun violence?

We? Once again. Only leftists.

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Not very many headlines are popping up that are saying we need to fix Marriage, family and community, in that order, if we want to ever get a handle on gun violence

Because the mainstream media is leftist.

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On 3/1/2018 at 4:16 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Only leftists.

We? Once again. Only leftists.

Because the mainstream media is leftist.

Help me understand why it’s only leftists? 

On 3/1/2018 at 1:26 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Are we so caught up in our own little worlds that we cant see the root cause of gun violence?

So, if we know its the home thats the problem why arent we doing something about home reform instead of gun reform? Americans have always owned lots of guns- its part of our culture and history. But, that was never an issue until we started seeing the breakdown of marriage, family, and community (thanks to our fathers hippie generation).

So now, we have this paramount problem where children are growing up in single parent homes, broken families, and communities that dont care to help and serve in their communities and combined with access to guns that have always been around it creates a volatile scenerio for extreme viloent acts.

But, not just by guns either. Violence and related criminal activity are all up across the boards. Kids are going to extremes- engaging in rampant and sometimes violent sex parties, playing deadly games, pursuing stronger drugs like meth and heroine, etc. We are truly creating monsters!

But whos directly to blame? Its not Washington, its our own marriages. Thats how we stop gun violence, thats how we stop the root cause of all our ills

I love a lot of what you’re saying because you are calling to action the need for people to start taking responsibility. 

My question is, do we need to find blame for this or the root cause? Many of your statements are personal beliefs and not fact. Do we need to find a single source to blame, or can we just accept that it’s happening?

i totally believe the more people who feel like they can make a change, then change will happen. Having open and understanding conversations is what will create healthy environments. 

It’s not single parent homes who are causing gun violence. It’s not rampant sex parties (which by the way there has been an overall decrease in young adults being sexually active highly correlated with the increasing access to porn). It’s not the dissolve of families. 

It doesn’t matter what the root issue is because knowing the root issue doesn’t make the change.

Society has to take responsibility as a whole. We have stop creating US verses THEM with every political and social issue. 

 

an aweosme eyeopeinig book to read would be Braving the wilderness by Brene Brown.  

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Namaskar said:

My question is, do we need to find blame for this or the root cause?

Society looks for someone to blame, but in reality the problem of "gun violence" is very complex and virtually unsolvable. 

Conservatives rant about family breakdown, liberals rant about gun control.  Both issues can't really be solved. What are you going do? Wave a wand and heal every broken family you can? Stop divorce from happening? Stop people from having babies out of wedlock? Good luck with that. Are liberals going to have police knock on doors and take guns away? Are they going to ban gun sales? Good luck with that too. 

 

5 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

Society has to take responsibility as a whole. We have stop creating US verses THEM with every political and social issue. 

That's very sweet of you to say, but on every political issue known to the country the sides are so vehemently opposed that it will always be "us" vs "them". 

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Society looks for someone to blame, but in reality the problem of "gun violence" is very complex and virtually unsolvable. 

Conservatives rant about family breakdown, liberals rant about gun control.  Both issues can't really be solved. What are you going do? Wave a wand and heal every broken family you can? Stop divorce from happening? Stop people from having babies out of wedlock? Good luck with that. Are liberals going to have police knock on doors and take guns away? Are they going to ban gun sales? Good luck with that too. 

 

That's very sweet of you to say, but on every political issue known to the country the sides are so vehemently opposed that it will always be "us" vs "them". 

It will always be that way if you believe that. I don’t believe it will always be this way. I am someone that does not fit into US or THEM and am so happy to have a longer conversation with anyone, no matter what they believe, to understand them. 

The questjon Of “do we need to find someone to blame” was rhetorical and your statement is mostly true, especially with this issue having a lot of complex juices. .

But not all of Society  looks for blame, I do not look for blame. I truly look for understanding and I take action to the best I know to create change. An individual can create change. 

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Just now, Namaskar said:

It will always be that way if you believe that. I don’t believe it will always be this way. I am someone that does not fit into US or THEM and am so happy to have a longer conversation with anyone, no matter what they believe, to understand them. 

The questjon Of “do we need to find someone to blame” was rhetorical and your statement is mostly true, especially with this issue having a lot of complex juices. .

But not all of Society  looks for blame, I do not look for blame. I truly look for understanding and I take action to the best I know to create change. An individual can create change. 

I used to think the same way you did, and I hope and pray you are right. Believe me my friend nothing would make me happier than seeing the country "come together" and stop looking to blame one another. I wish you the best of luck for sure. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

I used to think the same way you did, and I hope and pray you are right. Believe me my friend nothing would make me happier than seeing the country "come together" and stop looking to blame one another. I wish you the best of luck for sure. 

used to? What made you stop?  

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40 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

Help me understand why it’s only leftists? 

Gun control to stop gun killings is a leftist philosophy. Rightist philosophies would be more along the lines of arm the good guys to stop the bad guys.

Obviously the "blind" thing is an opinion. But that leftists believe gun control is the answer is, in my opinion, blind, and therefore, to me, blindness on the matter is a leftist quality.

My view is that leftists bury their head in the sand on statistics and reality in favor of feelings and emotion.

Statistics CLEARLY show, again and again, that violence stems from culture, not from what weapons a people have. Statistics clearly show that places in the states with the strongest gun control laws have more violence. Statistics show that while gun violence has actually gone down over the last few decades gun ownership has gone up. Statistics show that places that have taken the ability of good guys to defend themselves away end up with higher crime and violence numbers.

The leftist ideal is to ignore these statistics because "CHILDREN ARE DYING"!

Ignoring truth in favor of strong feelings reads to me as blind.

Of course the left judges the right as blind. So consider on your own and draw your own conclusion, as we all must.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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43 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

It’s not single parent homes who are causing gun violence...It’s not the dissolve of families. 

It is precisely these things.

44 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

Society has to take responsibility as a whole.

In what sense is it even possible that "society as a whole" take responsibility for "gun violence"? Do you think "society as a whole" should take responsibility for AIDS and methadone usage by, say, legally prohibiting promiscuous sex and drug usage?

46 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

We have stop creating US verses THEM with every political and social issue.

A highly reasonable observation. Perhaps you should inform the major media outlets, basically all of whom are leftist. They are the ones who have eagerly stirred the pot of divisiveness on every issue since at least the 1970s.

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Guest MormonGator
9 minutes ago, Vort said:

 Do you think "society as a whole" should take responsibility for AIDS and methadone usage by, say, legally prohibiting promiscuous sex and drug usage?

Exactly. @Vort should not be responsible to deal with the consequences of my behavior.  That doesn't mean he shouldn't give to charity (I am assuming he tithes regularly, so that's proof he gives to charity), but he has no obligation to clean up my mistakes. If I choose to inject heroin and I get AIDS from it-that's sad. Very sad, but it's also on me. Not him. If I have a baby outside of wedlock I can't demand that he pays for that kids food and diapers. He does of course thanks to welfare-but that's a different story altogether. 

You can't force men into virtuous behavior. That's a tough life lesson, but it's also painfully true. 

Edited by MormonGator
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2 hours ago, Namaskar said:

Help me understand why it’s only leftists? 

I love a lot of what you’re saying because you are calling to action the need for people to start taking responsibility. 

My question is, do we need to find blame for this or the root cause? Many of your statements are personal beliefs and not fact. Do we need to find a single source to blame, or can we just accept that it’s happening?

i totally believe the more people who feel like they can make a change, then change will happen. Having open and understanding conversations is what will create healthy environments. 

It’s not single parent homes who are causing gun violence. It’s not rampant sex parties (which by the way there has been an overall decrease in young adults being sexually active highly correlated with the increasing access to porn). It’s not the dissolve of families. 

It doesn’t matter what the root issue is because knowing the root issue doesn’t make the change.

Society has to take responsibility as a whole. We have stop creating US verses THEM with every political and social issue. 

 

an aweosme eyeopeinig book to read would be Braving the wilderness by Brene Brown.  

I said what the root cause is and how we can fix it- fix marriage, family, and community and this problem goes away.

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Gun control to stop gun killings is a leftist philosophy. Rightist philosophies would be more along the lines of arm the good guys to stop the bad guys.

Obviously the "blind" thing is an opinion. But that leftists believe gun control is the answer is, in my opinion, blind, and therefore, to me, blindness on the matter is a leftist quality.

My view is that leftists bury their head in the sand on statistics and reality in favor of feelings and emotion.

Statistics CLEARLY show, again and again, that violence stems from culture, not from what weapons a people have. Statistics clearly show that places in the states with the strongest gun control laws have more violence. Statistics show that while gun violence has actually gone down over the last few decades gun ownership has gone up. Statistics show that places that have taken the ability of good guys to defend themselves away end up with higher crime and violence numbers.

The leftist ideal is to ignore these statistics because "CHILDREN ARE DYING"!

Ignoring truth in favor of strong feelings reads to me as blind.

Of course the left judges the right as blind. So consider on your own and draw your own conclusion, as we all must.

Thanks for sharing. I’m really quite moderate in this particular discussion and don’t know enough about it from either perspective and appreciate you explaining. 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I said what the root cause is and how we can fix it- fix marriage, family, and community and this problem goes away.

I hear you and assumed I understood what the root cause is from your perspective and you had great suggestions of how to invite change.

I agree with you on working harder to be better individuals because at the end of it all, we can’t control anything but ourselves— no matter how much harder you love your spouse, teach your family, etc etc. we can’t control others. 

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

It is precisely these things.

In what sense is it even possible that "society as a whole" take responsibility for "gun violence"? Do you think "society as a whole" should take responsibility for AIDS and methadone usage by, say, legally prohibiting promiscuous sex and drug usage?

A highly reasonable observation. Perhaps you should inform the major media outlets, basically all of whom are leftist. They are the ones who have eagerly stirred the pot of divisiveness on every issue since at least the 1970s.

Your statements and responses to my comments are very black and white. Your blanket statements are grouping people and not acknowledging individuals.

“All media outlets are basically leftist. single parent homes are causing gun violence?”

I’d love to have a conversation but not under those conditions. 

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Reality. 

Well I won’t speak for your reality but I hope it’s not gone forever  

I see people coming together all the time. It might not be all at once. It might not be on gun violence. It might not be the way you or I might totally envision  

But I’ve seen people of all walks of life come together to help others. I see the good in others daily and believe everyone is trying to do their best by what they know

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3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Exactly. @Vort should not be responsible to deal with the consequences of my behavior.  That doesn't mean he shouldn't give to charity (I am assuming he tithes regularly, so that's proof he gives to charity), but he has no obligation to clean up my mistakes. If I choose to inject heroin and I get AIDS from it-that's sad. Very sad, but it's also on me. Not him. If I have a baby outside of wedlock I can't demand that he pays for that kids food and diapers. He does of course thanks to welfare-but that's a different story altogether. 

You can't force men into virtuous behavior. That's a tough life lesson, but it's also painfully true. 

I don’t think we have to save everyone or fix people or things. 

We can be responsible by looking inward instead of always searching for someone to blame. We can be responsible by truly, truly trying to acknowledge the issues and just accept them as they are without constantly fighting over who is right or wrong. 

We can be responsible by trying to make choices and act in a way that is bigger than us, in a way that sees the good in others. 

But that takes a lot of self awareness but man is it a beautiful and liberating place to be when you begin to discover it. 

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34 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

Your statements and responses to my comments are very black and white. Your blanket statements are grouping people and not acknowledging individuals.

Not so. Recognizing patterns is not ignoring individuals; it is acknowledging that societal trends are driven by statistically meaningful actions of definable groups.

35 minutes ago, Namaskar said:

I’d love to have a conversation but not under those conditions.

Okay, whatever. Though it's funny you would respond to me just long enough to say, "I'm not going to respond to you." Seems more than a little passive-aggressive.

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6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Gun control to stop gun killings is a leftist philosophy. Rightist philosophies would be more along the lines of arm the good guys to stop the bad guys.

Obviously the "blind" thing is an opinion. But that leftists believe gun control is the answer is, in my opinion, blind, and therefore, to me, blindness on the matter is a leftist quality.

My view is that leftists bury their head in the sand on statistics and reality in favor of feelings and emotion.

Statistics CLEARLY show, again and again, that violence stems from culture, not from what weapons a people have. Statistics clearly show that places in the states with the strongest gun control laws have more violence. Statistics show that while gun violence has actually gone down over the last few decades gun ownership has gone up. Statistics show that places that have taken the ability of good guys to defend themselves away end up with higher crime and violence numbers.

The leftist ideal is to ignore these statistics because "CHILDREN ARE DYING"!

Ignoring truth in favor of strong feelings reads to me as blind.

Of course the left judges the right as blind. So consider on your own and draw your own conclusion, as we all must.

Is it?

Last time I checked, many in the NRA actually claimed that it was controlled by the Right.

The NRA (despite what some of the "leftist" want you to think) has actually pushed for many of the types of gun control we have today.

Even you admit, rightist philosophies would be more along the lines of arm the good guys to STOP the Bad Guys...and part of many of the right's answers to that consist of different forms of gun control  More stringent controls on those who may have a mental illness, those who have not had the right training (for CCW's), and other things.

It depends on the state that you are from.  A democrat from California may be in favor of removing ALL guns, while a Republican is in favor of more strict gun controls, removing what they consider assault weapons, not selling to those with any history of mental health issues, and not allowing ex-felons to own guns.

Meanwhile in Idaho a Republican may be against background checks but still thinks that ex-felons should not own guns.  A Democrat may be very in favor of guns in Idaho, but feel that background checks should also require a background check in regards to their mental health.

In many cases, the democrats from the Red states are for less gun control than the Republicans from Blue states.  In all of those, they are in favor of SOME SORT of gun control.

I'd say gun control is NOT just a "leftist" thing.  It's that the WAY each party and group WANTS that gun control applied is different. 

Personally, I think everyone is NOT a constitutionalist on this issue anymore, as they feel that they WANT gun control and gun control laws in some form or fashion.  The NRA has spearheaded some of these laws and controls, and they are heavily republican from what they seem to want to state (though I'm positive they also represent many Democrats as well).

If we stuck with the original intent, I think (aka my thoughts) the Founders of our Nation did NOT WANT ANY gun control laws at all.  I think at the minimum they would have wanted the public to have equal access and free access if they desired to anything and everything up to the most modern tanks and military vehicles (with the available conventional war munitions).  No restrictions because of a class (so felons and ex-felons would still be allowed to own guns) or status.  In otherwords, the original founding fathers were VERY anti-gun laws, and VERY PRO for everyone to be able to use those guns to start a revolution if they wanted to.

Almost NO ONE agrees with that idea anymore.  Instead, in regards to Constitutional interpretation, instead of a Constitutionalist, most seem to believe in a living breathing document that adapts and changes for the time it is in.  The differences is HOW they view those changes.

I recently viewed a map which showed the areas of gun violence in the nation.  The point of the article was to show that those areas that were calling for the most restrictive laws (including the removal of guns) were also almost exactly parallel to those with the most gun violence.  In an odd sort of way that makes sense.  The areas with the most gun violence want the guns removed, while the areas with the least amount of gun violence do not have any problems with this type of violence being rampant and hence have NO desire and see no need to have those guns removed.  The article was TRYING to point out in addition, that most of these areas with high gun violence voted democrat.

However, I noticed something very different.  These areas that corresponded to gun violence seemed to center around cities.  In that essence, rather than a liberal vs. a conservative, or left vs. right, it seems MORE to me to be an issue of urban vs. rural, and a better way to frame it would be more of the culture of those who live in cities vs. the culture of those who live in the country.

That said, overall I'd be more inclined to agree with Rob Osborn's original argument (and I'd say this applies to a LOT of the sin that we see in the world today, especially in our modern western world).  The biggest success the adversary has had in destroying our civilization is with the destruction of the family.  As the family has broken down over the past century, more and more sin of the most vile types have exploded.  I'd say this also applies to youth who glorify violence of any sort, and glorify the idea of violence in the community.  Of course I'd also say it applies to the explosion of immorality and various other difficulties and problems that we see around us in the US and Europe currently.

Edited by JohnsonJones
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@Namaskar,

Just like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I believe the gun 'debate' will never be solved.  The second amendment has already been infringed upon too much by two categories of people: the uneducated and fearful, and the power hungry.  Disarming the people is a tactic for control.  Imagine if all of a sudden there was a military coup, how would a people adequately protect themselves with inferior weaponry?  In most countries they can't, they just hide, escape, or die.  I don't think fully automatic weapons should ever have been banned, for that very reason.

Gun crime will always exist, it is not preventable.  What is preventable, is weather or not we have the means and ability to protect and defend ourselves and others.

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Guest MormonGator
8 hours ago, Namaskar said:

Well I won’t speak for your reality

The older I get the more I see reality as objective. There is no such thing as "your" or "my" reality. Reality exists regardless of how we perceive it.

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