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I don’t want to share my husband in Heaven

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2 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

The bolded underlined comment is seriously suggesting that I am turning my back on a set of religious beliefs because I don't want to risk sharing my husband. NICE

As the person who would know best what I am suggesting or not, I can tell anyone willing to listen that as a matter of fact I am suggesting nothing of the sort. It is entirely a figment of Blossom76's  imagination.

And, there is nothing in the words that were underlined that can be reasonably interpreted as suggesting anything of the sort.

Blossom76 is seeing things that are not there. This is the serious communication problem that I mentioned earlier., and the reason I thought it best not to attempt communicating with her, at least for the remainder of the evening.. 

Have a good night.

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If someone is going to point out why a comment they made is not condescending, petty or suggestive, perhaps they should actually include the comment in their defence post so people can decide for themselves what exactly is in someones 'imagination'.

In the spirit of open communication, I invite you all to make up your own mind on how you would view this comment if it was made to you, after you have spent many many months of deep spiritual study and prayer deciding where you think you should place the security of your eternal soul.

At least according to that belief there is no risk of you sharing your husband with anyone else because he wont be shared in marriage with anyone at all, including you. Nice.

Edited by Blossom76

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I have wondered at times why no one ever seems to consider the idea(s) of plural marriage in reverse and the theoretical problems therein.

What do I mean?

Let's say I'm sealed to my wife for time and all eternity and then, around middle age or so, I died. My wife, being younger than me, marries again. With her new husband, all in, she spends 40 years of her life and has 6 kids. With me she only spent 20 years, and maybe we weren't able to have children, or only had 1 or 2.

Now there I am sitting in heaven, desperately in love with this woman who, by all reasonable accounts, must now either cast me aside, or cast aside the man she lived with longer, had more of a life with, raised her children with, and has likely grown to love more dearly than I loved her.

But she cannot choose us both. And I am stuck without the choice. I have no say in whether she chooses me or not. None.

If she chooses the other guy, I lose her forever. If she chooses me the other guy loses her forever.

Where's the fairness in that?

Well it's easy enough to "say" trust God and it will all work out. That's the typical response we'd get on such matters. Facing it is harder. But the ONLY reality we have is to either choose to trust God or to not trust God. In the case of the husband in such a situation as presented here, however, the loss of his eternal companion is still entirely in the hands of the woman. Entirely.

The plain fact of the matter is that when and if you believe in eternal marriage -- the simple idea that you can be married to someone eternally, then complications arise in spades. With polygamy, the women face one serious challenge, without it different challenges are faced. And the reality of having two spouses in life due to death used to be a considerably more likely.

If we prioritize romantic love as the A Number One most important thing in a marriage eternal marriage doesn't really make sense in the factual grand scheme of things when you start factoring reality.

Of course immature children have no perspective on this and cannot see past their Disney Princess idealism of happily ever after. Maturity, consideration, and having faced the realities of life and death as we grow older may well change perspectives on these things.

*Edit: I realize that I gave my at least 40ish year old wife 6 children after 40....and that is probably not very likely...but....well, let's make it 3 kids instead, with a set of twins.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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3 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

If someone is going to point out why a comment they made is not condescending, petty or suggestive, perhaps they should actually include the comment in their defence post so people can decide for themselves what exactly is in someones 'imagination'.

In the spirit of open communication, I invite you all to make up your own mind on how you would view this comment if it was made to you, after you have spent many many months of deep spiritual study and prayer deciding where you think you should place the security of your eternal soul.

At least according to that belief there is no risk of you sharing your husband with anyone else because he wont be shared in marriage with anyone at all, including you. Nice.

Contention and hostility seem to follow you from topic to topic.  I'm unsure why.

Whether or not you have a risk of sharing your husband with someone is between you, your husband, and that "someone".  It has nothing to do with God or a specific religion.  If you believe families will be together beyond the veil, as you have stated, then I'm unsure what your problem is.  In EVERY religion people remarry due to death or divorce.  In EVERY religion these people have mixed families.  In EVERY religion these people will be together in some form if you believe families will be together.  That is pretty much the extent of ANYONE'S knowledge and that knowledge extends to every religion that believes in being with our loved ones forever.

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6 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I don't want to be a part of any organisation that has polygamy in ANY part of their doctrine for ANYONE, not just me.

Then you should avoid any organization founded on the Bible, because it's got all kinds of polygamy going on.

6 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

if you are to marry a man who is already sealed to another women

6 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

if your husband you are to be sealed to in the temple is already sealed to another woman

6 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

she has no choice but to not marry the man she loves because she believes a doctrine taught by her church that she may have to live polygamy for all eternity if she does

Erm, just don't date guys who have already been sealed to someone else.  Make it question #1 when asked on a date.  Problem solved.  If you date a few times and like him, ask his thoughts on re-marrying if you die first - if you don't like his answer, move on.  In other words, don't fall in love with someone whose beliefs and intents are incompatible with your own.  Problem solved.  (If this is truly the main issue, I'm baffled.)

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

Why everyone thinks I need to have some sort of immediate 'belief' on what happens in heaven is kinda funny to me to be honest.  I don't believe in the LDS teachings on heaven.  I don't have to decide what heaven really is like with regards to marriage to make that decision.  

Because this is the first time you've answered the "what do you believe" question with "I don't know what I believe".  Previously you have only said what you don't believe (LDS teachings) but have never responded in the affirmative (nor explained that you have not yet formed an affirmative belief in this area).

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8 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I don't want to be a part of any organisation that has polygamy in ANY part of their doctrine for ANYONE, not just me.

With all due respect, that would pretty much eliminate all Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.  Not that that is a problem, if that is what you want.

8 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

the choice you are faced with, be sealed to this man and live polygamy for all eternity, or don't be sealed to him and accept a lower level of glory.

Someone may have said this already, but what about option 3, be sealed or allow the 2nd spouse to be sealed to someone else who will not have more than one wife?

Also, just to throw this out there, but in the temple, for the deceased, we pretty much seal everyone to each other, and then just already have built in the plan and caveat that God will sort it out later.  If women were divorced and re-married, they get sealed to both Husbands, and many kinds of zig zag and cross connect.  Sealing really has one primary purpose, the uniting of all the children of God as one linked eternal family.  We will have 1000 years after Jesus returns to figure out the full extent of what will actually happen and what will not.

8 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

But if your husband you are to be sealed to in the temple is already sealed to another woman (be she divorced or deceased) then you are being asked to agree to eternal polygamy.  So the happiest day of a woman life turns into a heartbreaking nightmare. . . Very stressful thoughts for a woman, after all eternity is an awfully long time.

If you actually were to believe the doctrine to be true, I imagine that a great deal of stress from it would be alleviated just in that one simple pivotal experience.  I think the stress comes from not believing and thinking you have to believe, rather than from if it is true or not.  Also, remember that the truth doesn't change just because we take issue with it.  Either it's true or it isn't.  But your anxiety on the subject won't change whether it is or isn't true, that's why you have to either shelve it and worry about it later, or decide (as it appears you have done).

8 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

marry the man she loves

Historical, and even biblical marriage was not based on romantic love.  It was based on two people coming together for a reason, almost like a business deal.  Many cultures still have arranged marriages.  Many times two people love the same person and that person must choose only one of them.  Religiously active Christian homosexuals must forfeit the opportunity to marry anyone of the same sex.  People get a 'broken heart' for many, many reasons.  I personally believe that love is more a commandment, than an experience.  Christ showed us His love by giving his life for us.  This was an action, it was not romantic in the traditional sense.  Any two people can develop true love for one another by obedience to and focus on the gospel of Christ.

I once, many years ago had a co-worker at work that I thought was very attractive and interesting as a person.  In a different reality I would have asked her out and hoped to kindle a relationship.  On major hiccup though, this individual was a lesbian.  Once as we were discussing love she eventually told me, "you can't help who you love", as an excuse for her lesbian relationship.  However, what if I loved her?  I didn't, but what if I did?  Was she going to drop her lesbian partner and come be with me?  Even in a heterosexual situation this would be unrealistic.  However, it is evidence that sometimes, we have no option but to chose who we will love, when it comes to relationships.  When romantic love is the primary measuring stick, one person will always appear to lose, even in our life here on earth.

Even without plural marriage the man and the woman who re-marry will romantically love one of the spouses more than the other, does the fact that it doesn't happen at the same time automatically make it okay?  Not to me!  If I die and my wife re-marries and loves her new husband more than she loved me, then right now in my mind, I have a problem with that!  However, I recognize that that is all emotion, and 0 logic.  Even without the existence of eternal marriage I can imagine myself on the 'other side' feeling slighted at such an occurrence.  My children would love their new father, some of my children would grow up without ever even remembering me is their father.  It is extremely painful, emotionally, to think about.  However, regardless, it does not change the reality that if I die, it will happen, and I have even counseled my wife to re-marry if she wishes to do so.  What can give me solace in this?  I know that we all probably spent a great deal of time with each other before our lives on earth even began, and that we will have an eternity after this life has ended.  So, I simply can trust that we will all be blessed by God to receive exactly what will bring us the most joy.  You see, regardless of your religious paradigm, love and emotional pain and fear can always be connected, always.  If anything, the doctrine of plural marriage forces us to bear out that pain and surrender to the will of God, whatever that may be, rather than to bottle it up and ignore it until a time when we can't ignore it anymore.

Some people may never have to deal with these types of emotions, or situations, but they are real for many people whether polygamy exists or not.

6 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

No the point is I believe the LDS position makes no logical sense, and I don't believe it.

I think not being comfortable with something is vastly different from not making logical sense.  Emotionally difficult to bear, perhaps, but illogical, I would need a breakdown to understand what makes it illogical.  Which, I am seriously willing to accept as a possibility, but I just don't see how logic enters into it.

Edited by person0

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36 minutes ago, person0 said:

I think not being comfortable with something is vastly different from not making logical sense.  Emotionally difficult to bear, perhaps, but illogical, I would need a breakdown to understand what makes it illogical.  Which, I am seriously willing to accept as a possibility, but I just don't see how logic enters into it.

I agree. And even if one's objections are primarily on grounds of emotional discomfort, there are light years of difference between saying "I just can't reconcile myself to the emotional ramifications of this particular teaching" versus coming out swinging with language like "I want nothing to do with a God/Heaven that runs things this way", or refusing to present a cohesive alternative as to how Heaven should be run, or offering mutually contradictory arguments against the Mormon paradigm, or repeatedly making stupendous misrepresentations as to the Mormon position.  At some point, a person who takes the latter approach is going to be suspected of dealing in bad faith.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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Woah this thread just took a turn to a whole new place ?...thank you everyone for all your comments. I never intended this to become a war, just trying to get more insight into a practice I’m not familiar with. I have gained a lot of insight. I will be sealed to my husband whether he is sealed to his ex because no matter what I want to be with him for eternity. God will take care of the rest. ❤️

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4 minutes ago, Hello said:

I will be sealed to my husband whether he is sealed to his ex because no matter what I want to be with him for eternity. God will take care of the rest. ❤️

What a great attitude. Really, it's an attitude we all need. Were we to see the details of celestial life, I have no doubt that the most righteous of us would be scared stiff at the responsibility, power, and sacrifices we will be called on to make. Yet God assures us that it is the pinnacle of joy, the greatest of all the gifts he offers us. We would all do well to put our trust in God and quit worrying about the various what-ifs that plague us.

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5 minutes ago, Hello said:

I never intended this to become a war, 

The thing is, the war between truth and lies, good and evil, heaven and hell, God and Satan, is ongoing. It simply is.

We either stand on God's side (which means (among other things) accepting and trusting God fully and without reservation) or we stand on the enemy's.

Yes. It sounds harsh. But it is what it is.

7 minutes ago, Hello said:

God will take care of the rest. ❤️

Sounds like you're choosing the right side.

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2 Nephi 9:28  O that cunning plan of the evil one!  O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men!  When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not.  And they shall perish.
29  But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.
 

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6 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I have wondered at times why no one ever seems to consider the idea(s) of plural marriage in reverse and the theoretical problems therein.

What do I mean?

Let's say I'm sealed to my wife for time and all eternity and then, around middle age or so, I died. My wife, being younger than me, marries again. With her new husband, all in, she spends 40 years of her life and has 6 kids. With me she only spent 20 years, and maybe we weren't able to have children, or only had 1 or 2.

 

Long ago, one of my good friends married a young woman in the Ward whose first husband (they were married in the temple) had died of cancer after only a year of marriage. Back then my friend could only marry the young widow for time and not eternity.

We had lengthy conversations about him not being sealed to his wife for eternity and whether his children (there were no children from the first marriage) would be sealed to the first husband for eternity.  His great attitude was that it will all be worked out by God in the end, and to everyone's satisfaction.

I can't be sure, but I believe he has since been sealed for eternity to his wife and children--again, with the provision that it will all be worked out in the end.

My friend wisely decided not to taint his joy with his wife and kids in this life by worrying about what may or may not happen in the after-life.  They have lived happily together for more than 40 years.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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5 hours ago, person0 said:

With all due respect, that would pretty much eliminate all Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.  Not that that is a problem, if that is what you want.

No it doesn't, LDS and Islam are the only Abrahamic religions that include current (or historical) doctrines of polygamy.  Just because there are a few instances of people living it in the bible does not make it acceptable to all sects of Christianity.  Slavery is in the bible as well and is not eating most seafood.

All the other points you make are of no validity to me, because I don't believe the doctrines of the LDS church so I'm not going to try and make sense of them, I don't need to do that anymore, there is no point.

And again, I don't have to have a firm belief in anything to know that I do not have a firm belief in something.

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5 hours ago, person0 said:

I think not being comfortable with something is vastly different from not making logical sense.  Emotionally difficult to bear, perhaps, but illogical, I would need a breakdown to understand what makes it illogical.  Which, I am seriously willing to accept as a possibility, but I just don't see how logic enters into it.

I don't believe it, its nothing to do with comfortable or not.  I don't believe most of the doctrines and teaching of this faith make any sense.  There are too many grey areas for me.  I don't think its appropriate to go into it here, but as I have stated over and over its not just celestial marriage/polygamy, its all of it.  The nature of God, the book of Abraham, who the church teaches Jesus was before he came to earth, the first vision accounts, sacred vs secret, a lot of church history, historical problems with the BOM (horses not being horses etc), this missing pages and the big gap between starting translation again, all this stuff and more (and the LDS explanations of why it happened this way) is illogical to me, if you can live with it and it makes sense to you then thats great.  But I can not, constantly trying to point out why I should is a waste of everyones time, and it distracts attention from the OP who started this thread - I made one comment in true sympathy and support of her and I was jumped on for it - explain explain explain, which I have, over and over, my answer is not going to change, after a very long, in depth, sincere study of this faith, I don't believe this is the true church, just accept it and move on.

Edited by Blossom76

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I think It’s important for discussion sake that I clarify that I knew going into my marriage that this would be a possibility. I knew my husband was sealed to another woman. I knew that there was a change before we even civilly married that I may never be sealed to my husband or if I did she could still be sealed to him as well. I didn’t feel forced into polygamy, I walked right in with my eye open because I knew without a shadow of a doubt that my husband was who I wanted to be with whether for time only or for eternity no matter what that entailed. However that doesn’t me that it doesn’t bother me. Like I said I’m human. I feel my husband is mine. And I want his love for me only. But if I have to share him it wouldn’t be with his ex because she doesn’t deserve to get to love him because she already had her chance and chose not to. 

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I don't know why "polygamy" keeps getting tossed around.  The church, nor its members, practice polygamy.   If anyone has doctrinal guidance on what relationships look like in the afterlife I'd love to see it.

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12 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

No it doesn't, LDS and Islam are the only Abrahamic religions that include current (or historical) doctrines of polygamy.  Just because there are a few instances of people living it in the bible does not make it acceptable to all sects of Christianity.  Slavery is in the bible as well and is not eating most seafood.

All the other points you make are of no validity to me, because I don't believe the doctrines of the LDS church so I'm not going to try and make sense of them, I don't need to do that anymore, there is no point.

And again, I don't have to have a firm belief in anything to know that I do not have a firm belief in something.

Okay.  Ultimately none of that really matters anymore, I suppose.  The only thing that matters now is what you want (I say this sincerely, not as any type of negative retort).  Obviously, we believe that the restored gospel as taught in our Church is the truth, and we believe that because of our and we sincerely wish to share that truth with others.  I recognize that at this point, that is not what you want, and that is entirely okay.  I also recognize and acknowledge that you are unsure about what you believe, that is also okay.  We each have our own path to take.  It could be more beneficial to start another thread to discus this, but I am sincerely curious to know, do you know what you want?  Do you know what it is that you are now looking for?  If the gospel we teach does not suit you, and if Catholicism no longer suits you, does Christianity still suit you?  Once again, I am entirely sincere, because if we can't give you what you want, I still want you to successfully determine what you want, and find it (even if I disagree with it and think it is wrong).

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@GruntI used the term because it’s what everyone else was using. I was just clarifying that I didn’t feel forced into so called polygamy. But by allowing one man to be sealed to multiple women it can be said that is a form of polygamy. 

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@Blossom76 thank you for your concern and your sympathy. I think we can all agree that there are different beliefs sets. And that’s ok. It’s ok that you don’t agree with the practices of the LDS church and you don’t have to. Being new to the church I don’t know or understand all the practices either. And I do agree it is important for anyone to have a strong understanding of what they do and don’t believe. I wish you luck in whatever avenue you choice to go. And know that no matter what Jesus loves you. ❤️ 

 

Ps. Trying to convince someone that their beliefs aren’t true based on your non-beliefs is just a waste of your time. (I mean that with love and grace). Arguing over religion only brings hardened hearts and causes judgement.  Neither of those are what Jesus wants. 

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Just now, Hello said:

@GruntI used the term because it’s what everyone else was using. I was just clarifying that I didn’t feel forced into so called polygamy. But by allowing one man to be sealed to multiple women it can be said that is a form of polygamy. 

Sorry, I wasn't specifically referring to you.  I was talking about sealing and what it truly means.  We aren't just sealed to our spouses but to our families as well.  What do those sealings look like in heaven?   I personally don't know.  Anything I find on it says we will be bound together in heaven and that it will extend to all generations.  https://www.lds.org/temples/what-happens-in-a-temple-sealing?lang=eng  

I trust God's plan.  I also recognize the choices we make in this life have effects in the next.  I know that Christ's atonement has the power to cleanse our sins.  Beyond that, I can't say I know what will happen.  I'm pretty sure I'll be happy for it, though.  After all, we shouted for joy when we heard God's plan, so it must be a good one.

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14 minutes ago, person0 said:

Okay.  Ultimately none of that really matters anymore, I suppose.  The only thing that matters now is what you want (I say this sincerely, not as any type of negative retort).  Obviously, we believe that the restored gospel as taught in our Church is the truth, and we believe that because of our and we sincerely wish to share that truth with others.  I recognize that at this point, that is not what you want, and that is entirely okay.  I also recognize and acknowledge that you are unsure about what you believe, that is also okay.  We each have our own path to take.  It could be more beneficial to start another thread to discus this, but I am sincerely curious to know, do you know what you want?  Do you know what it is that you are now looking for?  If the gospel we teach does not suit you, and if Catholicism no longer suits you, does Christianity still suit you?  Once again, I am entirely sincere, because if we can't give you what you want, I still want you to successfully determine what you want, and find it (even if I disagree with it and think it is wrong).

I want to be a part of the church that speaks for Jesus and God on the earth.  I will keep looking until I find it.  I am still studying Catholicism (it has its answers and arguments against critics just like the LDS church has, I'm not sure how I feel about their arguments yet but I have not looked deeply enough into it to make an informed decision on that, I have spent all my time studying LDS doctrine, which goes against what I agreed to with my husband, that I look at the arguments for and against both faiths)  and also studying early christianity (the first 200-300 years, the early church fathers before Constantine) and the lutheran reformation.  I will find my place, I will not give up.  

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@Blossom76 have you tried non denominational? It sounds like you’re a free spirit and you may flourish more at a church that helps you decide your own doctrines based on your own interpretation of the Bible. It’s not traditional but hey it works for some. A clear faith in Jesus is the foundation. Everything else were all just going on faith ?

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10 minutes ago, Hello said:

@Blossom76 thank you for your concern and your sympathy. I think we can all agree that there are different beliefs sets. And that’s ok. It’s ok that you don’t agree with the practices of the LDS church and you don’t have to. Being new to the church I don’t know or understand all the practices either. And I do agree it is important for anyone to have a strong understanding of what they do and don’t believe. I wish you luck in whatever avenue you choice to go. And know that no matter what Jesus loves you. ❤️ 

 

Ps. Trying to convince someone that their beliefs aren’t true based on your non-beliefs is just a waste of your time. (I mean that with love and grace). Arguing over religion only brings hardened hearts and causes judgement.  Neither of those are what Jesus wants. 

Exactly and I wasn't trying to do that at all, I was simply responding to questions (the same questions over and over), perhaps when someone says something it is best to accept it for what it is and leave them alone.

It is also true that trying to convince someone what you believe to be true is true when they obviously have a different opinion - and have said as much.  I didn't want this thread to be about what I do or do not believe, I was only responding to constant questions and defending myself, it is hard when you are the cheese in the situation.  

I am sorry your thread turned out like this, I made a seperate thread to address my questions and thoughts on the matter but that didn't go well either and was locked.

I wish you all the best with your marriage and hope you and your husband are very happy together.

Edited by Blossom76

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