Asked not to wear pants to church

[Guest]

1 minute ago, truthseaker said:

I dont understand this statement, why do all the members say this so often, its as if they believe the LDS church is more true than other churches.  Is that true?

A key idea in the LDS Church is that it is a restoration of First-Century Christianity, led by a prophet and apostles in this day.  We respect and appreciate other churches which have significant portions of truth in them.  However, we do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the most correct religion in the world, as we believe it is guided directly by God through a prophet and apostles.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, truthseaker said:

I dont understand this statement, why do all the members say this so often, its as if they believe the LDS church is more true than other churches.  Is that true?

Yes. It is the raison d'être of the Church -- the restoration of God's Priesthood authority. For further information, ask the missionaries to teach you about the "great apostasy".

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

 raison d'être 

:: rolls eyes ::

 Dude, your German is awful. 

[Sunday21]

@Truth_Seeker

Joseph Smith, when he was about 14, prayed and asked God which church to join. He had a vision in which God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared. Joesph asked which church he should join and...https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

I should mention that the LDS have a great deal of respect for the faiths of other people. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/10/respect-for-other-peoples-beliefs?lang=eng

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Sunday21

[lostinwater]

3 hours ago, truthseaker said:

Met my bishop today (in my pants!) and he was awesome, the pants police (he's the ward's mission leader) even apologised to me (after the bishop spoke to him but still an apology none the less).  So just for the record pants are fine in church - well in the ward I go to at least.

That's great @truthseaker !  

Maybe consider going out of your way to be nice to that mission leader.  No doubt, he's dealing with some bitterness.  To see that you are wanting to be nice would help nip a negative relationship in the bud.  And he'd be lucky to get to know someone like you.  

[truthseaker]

2 hours ago, DoctorLemon said:

A key idea in the LDS Church is that it is a restoration of First-Century Christianity, led by a prophet and apostles in this day.  We respect and appreciate other churches which have significant portions of truth in them.  However, we do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the most correct religion in the world, as we believe it is guided directly by God through a prophet and apostles.

I didn't realise this was the LDS view, thanks for the clarification.  As you can appreciate it is a very big statement to make, here's to hoping the LDS church can back up their claim.  I will certainly look into it. 

[truthseaker]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

@Truth_Seeker

Joseph Smith, when he was about 14, prayed and asked God which church to join. He had a vision in which God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared. Joesph asked which church he should join and...https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

I should mention that the LDS have a great deal of respect for the faiths of other people. https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/10/respect-for-other-peoples-beliefs?lang=eng

 

 

Thanks, but what is the opinion of all churches that have started since the LDS church? Does the LDS church hold the same view on them? My christian church I grew up in didn't have creeds and wasn't corrupt at all.  

Its just a massive statement to say 'this is the only true church on the earth', Im not saying I won't look at the evidence for it, of course I will, I just didn't realise that was the position of the LDS church, so I guess I'm kinda shocked by it.

[truthseaker]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Yes. It is the raison d'être of the Church -- the restoration of God's Priesthood authority. For further information, ask the missionaries to teach you about the "great apostasy".

Thanks I will definitely do that

[Sunday21]

@TruthSeeker Here is a video that you might like. I am sure that the people in the church that you grew up were lovely people. I think God is referring to the doctrine not meeting his high standards. https://www.google.ca/search?q=lds+first+vision+video&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ca&client=safari

[bytebear]

22 hours ago, truthseaker said:

Thanks, but what is the opinion of all churches that have started since the LDS church? Does the LDS church hold the same view on them? My christian church I grew up in didn't have creeds and wasn't corrupt at all.  

Its just a massive statement to say 'this is the only true church on the earth', Im not saying I won't look at the evidence for it, of course I will, I just didn't realise that was the position of the LDS church, so I guess I'm kinda shocked by it.

The crux is prophetic leadership in conjunction with priesthood keys.  We believe we have apostles who hold the keys of authority to Christ's church, and only these men hold those keys on the Earth at this time.   The church organization flows from them, with authority given to people under them, and under them, etc. But only those men hold all the keys, so a bishop, for example can't claim priesthood authority to create a new branch, or even decide doctrine. It all flows from the top, which flows from Jesus Christ directly.  So, authority doesn't come from doctrine, but doctrine from authority.  Even if someone set up a church with the exact same organization, same doctrines and practices, exactly, they would be invalid.  This is why we baptize even those who have been baptized by other churches even if the ordinance was performed in the exact same manner.

[bytebear]

A good example of this can be found in Acts chapter 19.

 

Quote

 

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

So, here we have Paul finding people who thought they were baptized, but Paul explained they didn't quite get it right.  They hadn't even heard of the Holy Ghost, let alone received it.  And it seems they were baptized in the name of John, not Jesus Christ.  So he knew they weren't baptized by authority because who ever did it didn't do it right.  So he baptized them properly, and then he laid his hands upon them so they could receive the Holy Ghost.  We believe that to receive the Holy Ghost, you must have it bestowed by the laying on of hands.  I recommend you do a scripture study of laying on of hands, which I believe is a key doctrinal practice missing in most other Christian sects.

Edited March 19, 2018 by bytebear

[bytebear]

Articles of Faith 4,5, and 6 pretty much covers it.

These are 13 statements Joseph Smith wrote to be published to very briefly describe Mormon beliefs.  They are canonized as scripture to us.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

Quote

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

 

[Sunday21]

@Truth_Seeker

We loooove religious questions on this forum! But in case we ever let you down with answers that don’t seem to be clear...

These online resources are also good (or you can just ask @zil!)

https://www.mormon.org/chat

https://askgramps.org/

Edited March 19, 2018 by Sunday21

[zil]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

or you can just ask @zil!

This is becoming disturbingly like that one Sunday I both spoke in Sacrament Meeting and taught RS (or maybe it was SS).  I joked that if they'd just had me teach SS (or maybe it was RS), any visitors would think they'd come to the Church of Zil...    Better they just ask the forum - my knowledge tends to be restricted to specific topics of interest rather than covering lots of topics broadly.

Edited March 19, 2018 by zil

[anatess2]

On 3/17/2018 at 12:59 AM, NightSG said:

So in other words, he was driven to conform to a cultural expectation that has no foundation in the Gospel by peer pressure rather than obedience of any sort.  Really not something to be proud of.

That's how YOU choose see it.   You have your own agency after all.  How I see it is that the Bishop knew that all he needed to do was to ask my son to stop wearing his bowtie and everything will fall into place with people simply given principles and they govern themselves.  Now, here's the rub - do you know the principle behind it?  

Like I said pages ago - IT IS NOT ABOUT THE TIE NOR THE WHITE SHIRT.

[NightSG]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

That's how YOU choose see it.   You have your own agency after all.  How I see it is that the Bishop knew that all he needed to do was to ask my son to stop wearing his bowtie and everything will fall into place with people simply given principles and they govern themselves.  Now, here's the rub - do you know the principle behind it?  

Like I said pages ago - IT IS NOT ABOUT THE TIE NOR THE WHITE SHIRT.

Obedience to your bishop's personal preferences that have no Gospel foundation.  Yet another case of culture overriding any meaningful principle.

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, NightSG said:

Obedience to your bishop's personal preferences that have no Gospel foundation.  Yet another case of culture overriding any meaningful principle.

Yep.  You completely missed the principle.  But that's fine.  You do you.  Because you know... gasp that a bishop actually knows what God is asking him to do.  smh.

Edited March 19, 2018 by anatess2

[NightSG]

19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Yep.  You completely missed the principle.  But that's fine.  You do you.  Because you know... gasp that a bishop actually knows what God is asking him to do.  smh.

Of course, because a bishop, being a creature of pure holiness, no longer has personal opinions.   Amazing how the Church has grown so strong that even local leadership now transcends Joseph Smith's "I am subject to like passions as other men, like the prophets of olden times," and can thus be certain that any random thought that enters their minds can only be the true Word of God.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Of course, because a bishop, being a creature of pure holiness, no longer has personal opinions.   Amazing how the Church has grown so strong that even local leadership now transcends Joseph Smith's "I am subject to like passions as other men, like the prophets of olden times," and can thus be certain that any random thought that enters their minds can only be the true Word of God.

One more time.  It's not about the pants.  Or the tie.  Or the white shirt.  If you don't understand that, then this conversation is going nowhere because you're arguing about bishops telling you not to pull the oxen out of the ditch because it's a Sunday.  My bishop doesn't do that and I posit that most bishops don't.  Maybe yours do, or maybe YOU just think he does.

Edited March 19, 2018 by anatess2

[NightSG]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

One more time.  It's not about the pants.  Or the tie.  Or the white shirt. 

No, it's about your belief that we're to blindly follow any advice given by a bishop because they speak only the True Word of God at all times with no human fallibility.  Even the one that told me I should "be creative" about stating my income on a couple of tax forms.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 3/17/2018 at 7:32 PM, truthseaker said:

Met my bishop today (in my pants!) and he was awesome, the pants police (he's the ward's mission leader) even apologised to me (after the bishop spoke to him but still an apology none the less).  So just for the record pants are fine in church - well in the ward I go to at least.

I'm pretty sure that the consensus you will find among most is that pants are fine. It is rebellion, political statements, flying purposefully in the face of decorum, etc., that is considered potentially problematic. As with many things, it's more the "why" that matters than the what.

And...as I suggested earlier...(being the WML in my ward myself), when and how to introduce decorum and what-have-you to new members or investigators is incredibly challenging. I still expect that whereas his approach may have failed miserably that his intentions were probably good and honorable, not judgmental and sleazy -- trying to be helpful, not hurtful.

I'm really glad it worked out. I just hate to see some member who are doing their best to help others get slammed as judgmental jerks for making an honest attempt to help other people and encourage understanding and forgiveness for them as much as we would hope that they would be understanding and forgiving of us in our mistakes -- the ones we all make.

Edited March 19, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[The Folk Prophet]

25 minutes ago, NightSG said:

No, it's about your belief that we're to blindly follow any advice given by a bishop because they speak only the True Word of God at all times with no human fallibility.  Even the one that told me I should "be creative" about stating my income on a couple of tax forms.

That's nonsense.

People who follow the advice of their bishop(s) are not doing so blindly, and do not do so because they think bishops cannot be fallible. And people who wear white shirts because their bishops ask them to don't cheat and lie if their bishops suggest it too.

I like many of your responses. But this one is nonsense.

 

Edit: Arrgghh. I need to stay off the forum when I haven't gotten enough sleep and am grump. Editing with less combative words.

Edited March 19, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[NightSG]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

People who follow the advice of their bishop(s) are not doing so blindly,

Following advice without question or pause is by definition blindly following.  Wishing otherwise doesn't make it so.

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Following advice without question or pause is by definition blindly following.  Wishing otherwise doesn't make it so.

Perhaps it's your definition. In any case, no one said anything about "without question or pause" until you did just now. Making things up and then applying them to previous conversations isn't a good strategy for honest communication.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Following advice without question or pause is by definition blindly following.  Wishing otherwise doesn't make it so.

I don't "wish" otherwise. I know otherwise. First: Bull. Following without question or pause has nothing to do with whether one is blind or not. Being able to see clearly is key. Seeing clearly and knowing the right choice so having no need to question or pause is still seeing clearly. Second: You're assuming that those who do as they've been asked (such as @anatess2) are doing so without question or pause. That's a nonsense assumption. It may be true in some cases. My experience tells me that those who give in and wear the white shirts to church have wrestled with the matter and drawn careful conclusions. Your implication that the opposite is true is the wishful thinking. You want to categorize those who see it differently as non-thinking sheep, but the reality is that, typically, being humble and obedient IS the challenging, difficult choice, and being prideful and stubborn is the non-thinking sheep way to act.

Only an idiot would not act immediately and without pause when he/she sees clearly. The one who sees and knows acts.

Your response is more nonsense.