Asked not to wear pants to church

[lostinwater]

31 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Editing with less combative words.

This effort means a lot.  Thank-you.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

No, it's about your belief that we're to blindly follow any advice given by a bishop because they speak only the True Word of God at all times with no human fallibility.  Even the one that told me I should "be creative" about stating my income on a couple of tax forms.

Ohhh... so we're playing extremes today.  Great!  Thanks for calling my son out as sheep who just follows blindly.  Next you're going to call him out for wanting to go on a mission because he was forced by his parents... in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Jane_Doe]

On 3/17/2018 at 11:26 PM, truthseaker said:

Thanks, but what is the opinion of all churches that have started since the LDS church? Does the LDS church hold the same view on them? My christian church I grew up in didn't have creeds and wasn't corrupt at all.  

Its just a massive statement to say 'this is the only true church on the earth', Im not saying I won't look at the evidence for it, of course I will, I just didn't realise that was the position of the LDS church, so I guess I'm kinda shocked by it.

I have no doubt your previous church was full of wonderful people who love Christ and do their best to follow Him!   Almost all of the many Christian churches I have visited over the years are full of people who love God, love the Bible, and generally really admirable.  I love visiting other churches and seeing the people there (I'm usually at at least 6 non-LDS denominations a year).  

But as I listen to the sermons... there's so many different messages being told.  Heck, in one month I happened to hear 4 different sermons on "we're just going to read straight from the Bible and talk about this 1 chapter" (same chapter, all 4 times).  And it was 4 completely different messages- from the same chapter!  

While I do love the people at other Christian Churches, and majority of the theology... some of the theology... by logic, conflicting ideas can't all be True.  And some of the ideas (like that the Father/Son/Spirit are 1 God via a shared substance... I don't find that scripture anywhere.  It comes from the post-Biblical Creeds, which were written by men, not divine revelation.   That doesn't change the fact that the people their indeed do love God, but for me Truth is also super important.  Not truth as said by man, but Truth I get from directly asking God myself and listening to Him speak.

[Sunday21]

13 hours ago, zil said:

This is becoming disturbingly like that one Sunday I both spoke in Sacrament Meeting and taught RS (or maybe it was SS).  I joked that if they'd just had me teach SS (or maybe it was RS), any visitors would think they'd come to the Church of Zil...    Better they just ask the forum - my knowledge tends to be restricted to specific topics of interest rather than covering lots of topics broadly.

J’accuse! You are seriously intelligent! So there!

[truthseaker]

@Sunday21 @bytebear @Vort @DoctorLemon @Jane_Doe One more question if I may bother you all again please.  If the LDS church believe they are the only true church on the earth, and only LDS baptism is legitimate in the eyes of God, does that mean they also believe no members from other church's can have the gift of the Holy Spirit? I mean does the LDS church teach that only LDS members can have the gift of the holy spirit/ghost

Edited March 20, 2018 by truthseaker

[Jane_Doe]

16 minutes ago, truthseaker said:

@Sunday21 @bytebear @Vort @DoctorLemon @Jane_Doe One more question if I may bother you all again please.  If the LDS church believe they are the only true church on the earth, and only LDS baptism is legitimate in the eyes of God, does that mean they also believe no members from other church's can have the gift of the Holy Spirit? I mean does the LDS church teach that only LDS members can have the gift of the holy spirit/ghost

There's a having the Holy Ghost visiting you, versus being a full-time companion.  Certainly all people (Christian and non) have the Holy Ghost visit and witness to them (that's actually crucial).  When a person is confirmed (after baptism), they receive the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which is full-time companionship.  

Useful resource: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-21-the-gift-of-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

[truthseaker]

6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I have no doubt your previous church was full of wonderful people who love Christ and do their best to follow Him!   Almost all of the many Christian churches I have visited over the years are full of people who love God, love the Bible, and generally really admirable.  I love visiting other churches and seeing the people there (I'm usually at at least 6 non-LDS denominations a year).  

But as I listen to the sermons... there's so many different messages being told.  Heck, in one month I happened to hear 4 different sermons on "we're just going to read straight from the Bible and talk about this 1 chapter" (same chapter, all 4 times).  And it was 4 completely different messages- from the same chapter!  

While I do love the people at other Christian Churches, and majority of the theology... some of the theology... by logic, conflicting ideas can't all be True.  And some of the ideas (like that the Father/Son/Spirit are 1 God via a shared substance... I don't find that scripture anywhere.  It comes from the post-Biblical Creeds, which were written by men, not divine revelation.   That doesn't change the fact that the people their indeed do love God, but for me Truth is also super important.  Not truth as said by man, but Truth I get from directly asking God myself and listening to Him speak.

Isn't all Devine revelation written down by men in the end.  For example, weather or not you agree with the outcomes of the early church council meetings, they can claim the same thing, divine revelation, then they wrote it down.  The Koran claims the same thing, the OT and NT of the Bible claims the same thing, the Book of Mormon claims the same thing. 

Divine revelation can be whatever anyone says it is, no one can prove otherwise so it doesn't really speak concrete authority to me.   They can't all be right so using Devine Revelation as evidence of truth is not really enough for me.  I need something else to back it up, like prophesies that came true etc

[truthseaker]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

There's a having the Holy Ghost visiting you, versus being a full-time companion.  Certainly all people (Christian and non) have the Holy Ghost visit and witness to them (that's actually crucial).  When a person is confirmed (after baptism), they receive the "gift of the Holy Ghost" which is full-time companionship.  

Useful resource: https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-21-the-gift-of-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

But many churches believe the holy spirt is a full time companion of the member once they have received it.  So LDS don't believe members from those other churches have the Holy Spirit as a constant companion.   You need to be a member of the LDS church to have the holy spirit as a constant companion?

[Sunday21]

Agree with above

https://www.lds.org/manual/missionary-preparation-student-manual/chapter-3-the-companionship-of-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng

Edited March 20, 2018 by Sunday21

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, truthseaker said:

Isn't all Devine revelation written down by men in the end.  For example, weather or not you agree with the outcomes of the early church council meetings, they can claim the same thing, divine revelation, then they wrote it down.  The Koran claims the same thing, the OT and NT of the Bible claims the same thing, the Book of Mormon claims the same thing. 

Men certainly the scribe, but what is the origin of the words?  Are they of the man's own thoughts, or words God-breathed and whispered through the Holy Spirit?  I do believe the Bible and Book of Mormon to be such books of scripture and happily bind them together.  Not so much for the Creeds.

Just now, truthseaker said:

Divine revelation can be whatever anyone says it is, no one can prove otherwise so it doesn't really speak concrete authority to me.   They can't all be right so using Devine Revelation as evidence of truth is not really enough for me.  I need something else to back it up, like prophesies that came true etc

Solution: ask God yourself "is this divine revelation-- are these your words?"  And listen to the answer.

Skip the part of debating men's words back and forth.  

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, truthseaker said:

But many churches believe the holy spirt is a full time companion of the member once they have received it.  So LDS don't believe members from those other churches have the Holy Spirit as a constant companion.   You need to be a member of the LDS church to have the holy spirit as a constant companion?

Like baptism receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is a priesthood ordinance and must be done by a person holding Christ's priesthood in Christ's church.  And yes, LDS believe that the LDS Church is Christ's church.  

[Sunday21]

Agree with above. Not only does the lds person need to receive the necessary ordinance but they need to remain worthy eg avoid noxious influences, obey the commandments

[truthseaker]

14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Solution: ask God yourself "is this divine revelation-- are these your words?"  And listen to the answer.

Skip the part of debating men's words back and forth.  

I'm a psychologist so I look at this differently from you.  But I think its totally cool that's how you make it work for you!

I personally don't think feelings are not a good indicator of truth and I doubt God is going to show up on my door and say 'yep this is all true' lol.  The human mind can see truth where is thinks it should be, where it wants it to be.  In short its not recommended to trust your feelings alone when trying to ascertain truth, because if you want it to be true, you brain/emotional response, signs you think you see or do not see, will tell you it is.

Edited March 20, 2018 by truthseaker

[bytebear]

38 minutes ago, truthseaker said:

@Sunday21 @bytebear @Vort @DoctorLemon @Jane_Doe One more question if I may bother you all again please.  If the LDS church believe they are the only true church on the earth, and only LDS baptism is legitimate in the eyes of God, does that mean they also believe no members from other church's can have the gift of the Holy Spirit? I mean does the LDS church teach that only LDS members can have the gift of the holy spirit/ghost

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed by the laying on of hands by one with authority. This gift allows the recipient the right to receive the comforter at all times.  The influence of the Holy Ghost can be manifest to anyone, but that is not the same as constant bestowal of the influence of the Holy Ghost. 

[truthseaker]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Like baptism receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is a priesthood ordinance and must be done by a person holding Christ's priesthood in Christ's church.  And yes, LDS believe that the LDS Church is Christ's church.  

Thanks, everything does seem to be coming back to that.  Who the LDS church thinks holds the authority to act for Jesus Christ on earth (obviously they think. its them).  Its very interesting.

I dare you to go into an evangelical church on a Sunday morning and say that they don't have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion because they aren't LDS, you'd get lynched! 

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, truthseaker said:

I'm a psychologist so I look at this differently from you.  But I think its totally cool that's how you make it work for you!

I personally don't think feelings are not a good indicator of truth and I doubt God is going to show up on my door and say 'yep this is all true' lol.  The human mind can see truth where is thinks it should be, where it wants it to be.  In short its not recommended to trust your feelings alone when trying to ascertain truth, because if you want it to be true, you brain/emotional response will tell you it is.

For me, there's a huge difference between listening to God, versus listening to my own feelings.  For me, I mentally sound like an ADD-jack-rabbit that's had 5 Mountain Dews before 9 AM.  God... is calmness.  I most equate it to the scriptural scene "Master the tempest is raging!"-- the Master calms the seas and just speaks.  

[truthseaker]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

For me, there's a huge difference between listening to God, versus listening to my own feelings.  For me, I mentally sound like an ADD-jack-rabbit that's had 5 Mountain Dews before 9 AM.  God... is calmness.  I most equate it to the scriptural scene "Master the tempest is raging!"-- the Master calms the seas and just speaks.  

LOL, an ADD Jack rabbit listening to heavy metal

[bytebear]

I find the sacrament prayers to be the best instruction on the gift of the Holy Ghost.  Sacrament (communion) is done weekly, and is considered a renewal of our baptismal covenant.  And the covenant is found in the words of the prayers.  There is one prayer for bread, and another for water (wine). 

They are found in the Doctrine and Covenants, and are canon.

Here are the prayers:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20

75 It is expedient that the church meet together often to partake of bread and wine in the remembrance of the Lord Jesus;

76 And the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it—he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer, saying:

77 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

78 The manner of administering the wine—he shall take the cup also, and say:

79 O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, truthseaker said:

@Sunday21 @bytebear @Vort @DoctorLemon @Jane_Doe One more question if I may bother you all again please.  If the LDS church believe they are the only true church on the earth, and only LDS baptism is legitimate in the eyes of God, does that mean they also believe no members from other church's can have the gift of the Holy Spirit? I mean does the LDS church teach that only LDS members can have the gift of the holy spirit/ghost

There is a difference between feeling the Spirit and having the gift of the Spirit.

Everyone can feel the Spirit when they are worthy.  Other Christians likely feel the Spirit quite often.  Feeling the Spirit is how one should determine that the LDS Church is true!

Having the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is something only LDS can have, is a different animal entirely.  Having the gift of the Holy Spirit entitles us to feel the Spirit potentially all the time, so long as we do not fall into unworthiness.  Having the Gift of the Holy Spirit also results in potentially feeling the Spirit more intensely and more deeply as well, if we are worthy.  Basically, having the Gift of the Holy Spirit allows us to feel the Spirit much more fully in our lives.

But no, we do not believe that Mormons have a monopoly on spiritual experiences.  For this reason, I (generally) do not question the spiritual experiences of non-LDS Christians.

Edited March 20, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[Vort]

2 hours ago, truthseaker said:

@Sunday21 @bytebear @Vort @DoctorLemon @Jane_Doe One more question if I may bother you all again please.  If the LDS church believe they are the only true church on the earth, and only LDS baptism is legitimate in the eyes of God, does that mean they also believe no members from other church's can have the gift of the Holy Spirit? I mean does the LDS church teach that only LDS members can have the gift of the holy spirit/ghost

There is a distinction that must be made. Any child of God -- that is to say, any human being -- can feel the influence of the Spirit. That is part of our "divine DNA", so to speak. We are God's children, and thus we can hear God's voice.

"The gift of the Holy Spirit" is something else. That gift is given by God to those who enter his kingdom -- that is to say, those who are baptized into his Church. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given by Priesthood authority. It is something conferred upon you, not something you have just by the fact that you are a child of God. It is a gift, and therefore must be given. Any human, LDS or otherwise, can receive promptings of the Holy Spirit; I daresay there are any number of good, righteous non-LDS people who feel the influence of the Holy Spirit more than many Latter-day Saints who are not careful about keeping their covenants or seeking God.  But the gift of the Holy Spirit belongs only to those in God's kingdom, which at this point in time is known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So, in summation, to answer your question in a strictly literal manner based on how you asked it: Yes, only Latter-day Saints may receive "the gift of the Holy Spirit". But in a larger sense, anyone may enjoy communion with the Spirit of God if worthy of that communion. If it were not so, the Church would baptize vanishingly few people, because almost no one would ever join the Church without feeling the confirmation of the Holy Spirit before their baptism.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, truthseaker said:

I'm a psychologist so I look at this differently from you.  But I think its totally cool that's how you make it work for you!

I personally don't think feelings are not a good indicator of truth and I doubt God is going to show up on my door and say 'yep this is all true' lol.  The human mind can see truth where is thinks it should be, where it wants it to be.  In short its not recommended to trust your feelings alone when trying to ascertain truth, because if you want it to be true, you brain/emotional response, signs you think you see or do not see, will tell you it is.

"Feelings" is an imprecise word for the influence of the Holy Spirit. "Revelation" is the appropriate term;  but since the vast majority of human beings have not consciously experienced receiving divine revelation, other words must be used. Some (including the Prophet Joseph Smith) have used the term "pure intelligence" to characterize revelation from God. "Feeling", though a very general and imprecise word, is also often used. This is because revelation inspires feelings in us, so feeling calmness and a loving presence is a frequent hallmark of revelation. I believe that the feelings themselves are not the revelation (usually), but are a common and easily recognized accompaniment of the revelation.

Personally, while I do associate divine revelation with calmness and a happiness and lightness of heart, I associate it at least as much with sharp clarity of thought and with deeply impressed ideas. When I receive revelation, I feel, I don't know, smarter than at other times. Not in the sense of feeling superior to others -- quite the opposite -- but in the sense that my mind is clear and I perceive sharply and with high relief the relationship between various elements, sometimes even in a way that I find hard to describe in words because I don't really know the right words to use.

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, truthseaker said:

I'm a psychologist so I look at this differently from you.  But I think its totally cool that's how you make it work for you!

I personally don't think feelings are not a good indicator of truth and I doubt God is going to show up on my door and say 'yep this is all true' lol.  The human mind can see truth where is thinks it should be, where it wants it to be.  In short its not recommended to trust your feelings alone when trying to ascertain truth, because if you want it to be true, you brain/emotional response, signs you think you see or do not see, will tell you it is.

4

@truthseaker - thank-you for posting this.  Very good advice/commentary, indeed. 

Most of us see what we want to see/what we've been taught to see, until something happens that causes us to re-evaluate.  At that point, we adjust, and carry on.  i think as long as we're willing to adjust and listen to God and Jesus - then things will come right in the end. 

i have come to believe that it is wrong to make assumptions about the intents (ie willingness to adjust) of another person based solely upon the fact that they hold views differing from our own.  

[zil]

9 hours ago, truthseaker said:

Divine revelation can be whatever anyone says it is, no one can prove otherwise so it doesn't really speak concrete authority to me.   They can't all be right so using Devine Revelation as evidence of truth is not really enough for me.  I need something else to back it up, like prophesies that came true etc

9 hours ago, truthseaker said:

I'm a psychologist so I look at this differently from you.  But I think its totally cool that's how you make it work for you!

I personally don't think feelings are not a good indicator of truth and I doubt God is going to show up on my door and say 'yep this is all true' lol.  The human mind can see truth where is thinks it should be, where it wants it to be.  In short its not recommended to trust your feelings alone when trying to ascertain truth, because if you want it to be true, you brain/emotional response, signs you think you see or do not see, will tell you it is.

Others have addressed the "feelings" issue, and that "feeling" the Holy Ghost is not the same as feeling emotion.  "Sensing" or "perceiving" the Holy Ghost might be better terms - feeling the way your fingers feel texture, or the way your skin feels changes in the air, not like emotion (my point being, that "feeling" has more definitions than the emotion-related one).  I'll add that based on personal accounts, people feel the Spirit in ways unique to them, and in diverse ways (e.g. one experience may not be identical to another though the same person experience both).  Some methods I have experienced or heard from others include:

• the pure intelligence @Vort described - clear, unmistakable words, thoughts or ideas entering one's mind (seriously, when this happens, you know it's not from you, but from God)
• peace
• confirmation or confidence in a decision one sought confirmation of
• doubt or uncertainty about a decision one sought confirmation of (yes, sometimes the answer is "no, that's wrong")
• seeing images or visions (seems extremely rare, or rarely shared - probably these are more sacred experiences not to be treated lightly)
• a feeling often described as warmth or burning, often described as starting in a single location and spreading through the body (also seems rare)
• hearing a voice (either mentally or as if someone spoke aloud)
• feeling prompted to do some act (often not knowing why, or not knowing until after acting); in every case I can think of at the moment, the act was either something which avoided harm, or was an act of simple kindness toward another

There are surely some that I'm forgetting or never heard of.  The point being, we have to learn through experience (see below) how the Spirit speaks to us (not all will experience all of the above), how to recognize His voice or influence.  D&C 8 and 9 are good references for studying how seeking revelation works - but if you don't study and ponder them, you'll likely miss some of the more nuanced things taught, since some of what is taught is very obvious and it's tempting to think you got it all by simple reading.

Which has brought us to another key thing to address here, and that is faith.  God does not work by providing concrete, physical proof.  Often, even the physical evidence is not so certain as to remove all doubt.  There's no shortage of unbelieving people who will tell you that every fulfilled prophecy is so vague that it was bound to be right, or that the prophet was simply perceptive about the way the world works and predicted something probable, or similar "explain away"s.  I believe God does this on purpose - so that we must choose to have faith (or not to).

Scripture is full of both positive and negative examples of how proof is less effective than faith when it comes to spiritual matters - how many had powerful spiritual experiences, but rejected them (ETA: or weren't strong until faith entered the picture) - Judas and Peter come to mind, Laman and Lemuel in the Book of Mormon; I'm sure I could find others if I took the time.  These stories prove that things we see with our eyes and hear with our ears are not powerful enough to convert us to Christ - for that, we need to receive the Holy Ghost, in faith.

Interestingly enough, however, Alma (Book of Mormon prophet) taught how you can experiment with the word of God so that you may come to act in faith with confidence that the word is in fact true.  You can read his explanation of this process in Alma 32 (the experiment he offers begins in verse 27, but I recommend the entire chapter - for that matter, the whole book).  The Lord himself explained the process at a high level here:

Quote

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

When ready, should you choose to take up Alma's method, see (ETA) Moroni 10:3-5, Moroni 7:6, 9 and James 1:5-6 for the next step.

Edited March 20, 2018 by zil

[NightSG]

On 3/17/2018 at 9:50 PM, Sunday21 said:

I should mention that the LDS have a great deal of respect for the faiths of other people. 

Unfortunately, it's apparently all concentrated in about three or four people, leaving the rest to alienate virtually everyone they meet.

I grew up in a pretty denominationally diverse family; on my dad's side, if it's got Baptist in the name, there's probably at least one within second cousins, while on mom's side, it's just the opposite.  Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Catholic, CoC and DoC just among the ones that show up for Thanksgiving dinner.  I was raised Methodist, but there aren't many churches in the county that I haven't been to at least one service in.  Yet I've found very few LDS who didn't at some point decide to teach me all about the wrongness of some Methodist belief I'd never heard of.  Some of them made the "things people think Mormons believe" list look pretty tame by comparison.

[Vort]

45 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Yet I've found very few LDS who didn't at some point decide to teach me all about the wrongness of some Methodist belief I'd never heard of.  Some of them made the "things people think Mormons believe" list look pretty tame by comparison.

Yeah, right. At least we don't ritually eat our younger children, like SOME denominations I could mention.