Asked not to wear pants to church


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On 3/10/2018 at 7:34 AM, Suzie said:

 

Thanks, but I really don't need one. Even though it affected me at that time because I was young, I quickly realized that she did not mean to be hurtful. Sometimes, members get caught in tradition and they do things like this but they don't mean any harm. Of course it is wrong and I am not trying to justify it, but in situations like this I try to always see the intention behind people's actions rather than the action itself. It helps me to see that just like me,  people mess up sometimes.

I super duper love this.  @Suzie, take the internet for the day.  It's yours.

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On 3/10/2018 at 3:50 PM, Carborendum said:

I gotta ask both of you if you have helpful hints.  

For years I tried growing a goatee.  But it never looked quite right.  But I finally got past that problem after looking at some grooming techniques.

Today I have a different problem.  Mrs. Carb refuses to kiss me because she says that my hairs are like steel wires tearing into her flesh.  Remember I'm Asian with very coarse black hairs.  Is there some conditioner or something that will soften the hairs somewhat to provide more comfort to my wife's face?

Shave it off.  You know how it is in Asian culture... facial hair are the baddies in every movie.  :)

 

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5 hours ago, Grunt said:

I’m silently waiting to become Bishop so I can reveal my orthodox agenda, enforce linger longer EVERY Sabbath, and exchange the pianist for a bagpipe band   

 

Thank goodness for the bagpipes...just about every ward I have been  in sings like they are all on anti depressants....probably a bunch of them are trying to keep up with sister Smith and her perfect life I'm sure. We need a black choir to get things back to motivating. 

 

Edited by paracaidista508
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8 hours ago, NightSG said:

Not sure how well it will work on coarser hair, but I've had good luck with (just a tiny bit of) Downy fabric softener.  Sort of an accidental discovery one day when I was out of conditioner and couldn't get my hair to cooperate, then later tried it on my beard with good results.

DO NOT GET IT IN YOUR MOUTH.  Work in a few drops, then wipe a time or two with a damp cloth to make sure there's no excess left.

Don't drink fabric softener.  Let me write that down. :) 

All kidding aside, I'll try fabric softener.  I'm afraid we don't go for the fancy stuff.  So I'll have to forego Downy in favor of a store brand.  Thanks for the suggestion.

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Okay people responding to this thread.  I hope you all get to read this thing.  Because... I want you all to know that

It's not about the pants.

I grew up as the first daughter after 2 sons.  So, I went through a period of time where my Father was always telling me "you can't do this" while my brothers can do it.  First was - I can't pee standing up.  Why not?  Well, that was an easy answer - because you don't have the genitals to be able to pull it off without soiling yourself.  But, but I won't soil myself if I do it this way.  Your brothers don't do it that way, so you're still different - go sit down and make it easier on yourself.

Then the Levi's 501 became a thing.  Well, guess what.  My father - the person with the money - refuses to buy me pants.  I wear skirts.  Because I'm a girl.  There's no other reason.  It's not because of any practicality or any comfort or convenience.  I can't wear pants because pants are for boys, skirts are for girls.  So, I went to work'at age 11 so I can have money to buy myself Nike shoes and Levi's jeans.  My relationship with my father got strained.  My mother tried to explain things to me but all I heard in my ear was my mother betraying me.  My younger sister, of course, loved to wear skirts and hates pants but I thought she's just a pansy.

Anyway, it wasn't until I left my Father's house that I realized my Father did not have anything against pants.  My father bought my sister jeans!  What he saw was my wanting to be a boy, just like my brothers and he didn't succeed in making me learn to appreciate and honor my Femininity even with a simple thing such as clothes.  My younger sister got it.  She is very feminine and value the feminine traits of empathy and homemaking and gentleness while I was very masculine-oriented - aggressive, competitive, and despise softness.

My Father taught me that having those masculine traits (you might say I was born with it, or you can say my brothers' influence made me more masculine oriented) is fine as long as I understand and value my femininity.  That I am different from my brothers.  And developing my Feminine traits is necessary to my future happiness.  And it all starts with how I dress.

So... about Church culture and women wearing dresses.  I have very nice suit pants (my job requires suits) and suit skirts.  I wear the skirts to Church.  Sometimes, though, my suit pants are the best clean thing in my closet so I wear them.  But if there are skirts in my closet, I give them priority for my Sunday best rather than the pants.  THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PANTS.  This has EVERYTHING to do with me wanting to be seen without question as WOMAN.  Just like you will not catch me wearing a Seminole jersey.  Never ever.  Nope.  I'm a Gator and it's orange and blue jersey for me. 

So, next time someone comments on a woman's pants at Church - remember this.  It's not about the pants.  Think about what you would think if a man would walk into Church in a skirt in the USA.  This indicates that he wants to be counted as a Woman.  But a man wearing a skirt in a church in Ireland or a Polynesian island does not give the same indication.  It's not about skirts and pants.  It's about MALE and FEMALE and how these 2 genders have eternal consequences.

So, if you're one of these women who think that you should have the Priesthood because you are the same as a Man, or you should be able to join the Boy Scouts, etc., don't wear pants.  The dress is the easiest thing for you to learn to appreciate the differences between Man and Woman.  But, if you understand that there are 2 genders and they have different roles in the Church and you belong to the woman gender - go ahead, wear your dress pants.  I doubt you're going to act like a man in it.  If somebody says something about your dress pants you can just smile and remain confident that you are Woman, or you can tell the aggrieved person that it's okay, you understand that you are a Woman and have no intention of being a Man.

P.S.  There's a Pauline letter out there that teaches us all these things.  In Paul's day... it wasn't about the hair.

 

Edited by anatess2
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23 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Shave it off.  You know how it is in Asian culture... facial hair are the baddies in every movie.  :)

 

No, that's only for westerners.  Think of Kwai-Chang's blind master.  He had a fu-manchu. 

Remo Williams' master had a mustache.

Pei Mei (Kill Bill) had a thick ol' fu-manchu.

Yup.  Asians are supposed to sport them in their later years.  Besides, I found that my beard hairs are whiter than my head hair.  It will make me look more my age.

 

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47 minutes ago, paracaidista508 said:

Thank goodness for the bagpipes...just about every ward I have been  in sings like they are all on anti depressants....probably a bunch of them are trying to keep up with sister Smith and her perfect life I'm sure. We need a black choir to get things back to motivating. 

 

Our choir sang at an interfaith music evening last night.  They were heavenly.  I was so impressed.  

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34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

No, that's only for westerners.  Think of Kwai-Chang's blind master.  He had a fu-manchu. 

Remo Williams' master had a mustache.

Pei Mei (Kill Bill) had a thick ol' fu-manchu.

Yup.  Asians are supposed to sport them in their later years.  Besides, I found that my beard hairs are whiter than my head hair.  It will make me look more my age.

 

Oh hey now... You did not say you're growing a goatie like them Shaolin masters!  No worries about the wife.  Once it gets this long it wouldn't be "scratchy".  :D

 

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Don't wear pants.  :D

 

Interestingly, I would never, ever wear pants to church or the temple (i.e. to a meeting / event the purpose of which was to worship God) - perhaps if the world were ending and there was no time to change and the Spirit told me to hie to the temple (but not otherwise).

Everywhere else (literally), I wouldn't wear a dress to save my life (other places that warrant dressing up, I just don't go to - and I don't own "dress pants" or "pant suits" - only denim).  One of my earliest memories is from the first day of preschool.  I can still see the image in my head of my little hands (both of them) wrapped around the inner door handle of my mom's VW bug, clinging for dear life as she pulled me away from it and then dragged me kicking and screaming into the school.  The entire problem was that she made me wear a dress.  Had I been allowed to wear pants, we would have had no problem.

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Just now, zil said:

Interestingly, I would never, ever wear pants to church or the temple (i.e. to a meeting / event the purpose of which was to worship God) - perhaps if the world were ending and there was no time to change and the Spirit told me to hie to the temple (but not otherwise).

Though I never considered this to be about whether or not I was a woman - it is simply that wearing a dress seems to me the best, most appropriate way to show God the degree of respect and formality with which I view the meetings / events whose purpose is worshiping him.  (And no, I'm not sure why that is, but I'm sure it is.)

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19 minutes ago, zil said:

Though I never considered this to be about whether or not I was a woman - it is simply that wearing a dress seems to me the best, most appropriate way to show God the degree of respect and formality with which I view the meetings / events whose purpose is worshiping him.  (And no, I'm not sure why that is, but I'm sure it is.)

My suspicion - I could be wrong - is that, like my sister, you instinctively know this and didn't have to be taught that women are different from men and that you wear a dress to Church because it's what women do.

If I was born to rabid SJW's in today's day and age, they'd be asking doctors to give me male hormones at 6 years old.

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On 3/10/2018 at 10:17 PM, truthseaker said:

Perhaps you are looking into it too much.  Some guy told me what I should and shouldn't wear to church when I looked perfectly respectable, he had no right to do that.  I'm angry about it.  I'm even more angry after reading that the LDS church 'recommends' women wear skirts or dresses to church.  I like dresses, I like skirts, I like pants.  As long as I don't look like a hooker I should be able to wear what I like to church without being 'told off' by other church members.

This is what I don't understand.  If you've read what I've posted earlier, you'd know that I've had similar things happen to me.  I was somewhat irritated.  I shrugged it off and moved on.  But not only did you get "ANGRY" about it.  But you're so angry that you have to vent through a now 6 page long thread.  I understand you having a mild problem with it.  I even understand your characterization of this particular individual as a "jerk".  But your words and tone in all your posts go well beyond simple irritation.  It seems rather extreme to me.  That is what I don't understand.

I don't know if you want me to understand you.  So instead, I'll try to help you understand us.

I. DRESS CODE

Going to church is a formal occasion for Mormons.  Apparently, your background says church is NOT as formal occasion as it is to us. It is no different than if you went to a formal dinner and would be expected to wear a formal gown. Something as simple as a dress code for Church attendance isn't unusual and is found in all walks of life.  Courtrooms have them.  Schools have them.  Offices have them.  Many places have them.  You stated that today women wear pants all the time.  And that is absolutely true.  And we don't have any Church statements against women wearing pants in their homes or school or wherever they want.  Women even wear pants to our weekday activities.  None of these is a formal Church occasion.  Only in our formal meetings (Sacrament and Temple) do we have a "dress nicely" dress code.  To Mormons, this includes women wearing dresses/skirts to church. 

You talk about women wearing pants for many years.  That is true.  But how many formal occasions do you see where women will wear pants?  Not as often.  And the more formal the occasion, the less you'll see women wearing pants.

Also try to understand that this is not something that will ever get you kicked out of the Church (which is why I wonder why this brother said anything at all).  It's a request just like if a relative asked you to dress nicely for attending their wedding.  Or if you don't like the fact a stranger is saying it, then consider it like a school dress code.  Church is a type of school after all.  

We've also had official statements warning us that we always need to take into account those who are new to our culture (again, I wonder why this man said anything to you) and those who may not be able to afford a "nicer" set of clothing, or other perfectly understandable reasons people may wear clothes differently.

II. OLD SCHOOL
We are a very conservative church.  As such, we will be at the more old fashioned end of the culture.  In simple things like dressing for church, we do it the old fashioned way.  It was really not that long ago that every church expected you to dress this way.  It is called "Sunday Best."  I'm not sure if Aussies use that phrase or not.  Again, not something that should get you kicked out.  But it is an expectation.  Still, there are many women who will wear slacks to church.  They're still around.  No one has kicked them out yet.  In fact, my grandmother was one of them.  She just plain didn't like dresses.  But she did understand that it was the culture.  And she did at least wear a dress when going to the temple, even when she didn't do so for church attendance.  Temple is considered even more formal than church.

III. PECULIAR PEOPLE

One thing that is constantly said about Mormons is that we are a peculiar people.  I personally wear that as a badge of pride.  We are.  But we also know that there are some things that are "cultural abnormalities" that distract from who we are and what we're about.  As such, you'll notice small things that others will do from time to time, that we do much more often because it's old school.

IV. GOOD MANNERS

I hope this helps you better understand us and what this was all about.  As one who has not subscribed to our faith, I don't know why this man said anything to you.  That could be considered bad manners.  How on earth could you have known?  It isn't a matter of Divine Mandate (although some may characterize it that way).  I view it as a "standard"  or a "dress code" nothing more.  I myself like to wear suits.  But even if I didn't, I'd try to abide by it simply because it is good manners to abide by a dress code when I'm visiting someone's home.  And you are a visitor after all.  It is good manners to treat you politely as you're visiting.  It is good manners for you to respect the rules of the house.

This is where I thought you were making a big deal out of it.  Good manners would simply say,"Oh, I didn't know that was a rule of the house.  Thank you for informing me."  But instead, you got really heated and then decided that the house needs to change its rules even when you were only a guest.  Guests with good manners usually don't do that.

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14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If I was born to rabid SJW's in today's day and age, they'd be asking doctors to give me male hormones at 6 years old.

I might have been in the same boat - I have 2 older brothers, each of us is a year apart in age (almost to the day), and I have always been more interested in stereotypically "male" things than "female" things.  As near as I can tell, the only "feminine" thing about me is that I find (some) men attractive (and I don't find women attractive).

But yeah, I'm pretty sure I always understood boys and girls are different and I'm a girl.

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20 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If I was born to rabid SJW's in today's day and age, they'd be asking doctors to give me male hormones at 6 years old.

I'd be drugged up on Ritalin.

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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

III. PECULIAR PEOPLE

One thing that is constantly said about Mormons is that we are a peculiar people.  I personally wear that as a badge of pride.  We are.  But we also know that there are some things that are "cultural abnormalities" that distract from who we are and what we're about.  As such, you'll notice small things that others will do from time to time, that we do much more often because it's old school.

I think this is more important that some realize.  Recently, @Just_A_Guy introduced me (consciously, anyway) to the idea that there is a sort of "optimal tension" when trying to maintain a group distinct from the overall culture.  Too much tension and the overall culture will destroy the distinct group (my words, not his).  Too little tension and the group will get absorbed into the overall culture.  One of the things which sets Mormons apart from the world is the way we dress.  If we lose that distinction, we are one step closer to getting absorbed into the overall culture (and some could argue we're too absorbed already).

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On 3/10/2018 at 1:56 PM, Carborendum said:

That looked great, until I saw that it was scented peppermint.  Mrs. Carb can't stand any kind of mint including peppermint.  She refuses to buy the standard type of candy canes at Christmas time.  She only gets the fruit flavored type.

Now, the link you provided also indicated a citrus scented beard oil.  This is something I believe both of us would like.  But I wonder if it would change the way i perceived flavors if I were smelling citrus all the time.

Can't there be an Old Spice scented beard oil?

Three flowers pomade. 

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