Polygamy in Heaven

[Blossom76]

I've just been reading a thread about a lady who is getting sealed to her husband but he is still sealed to his ex wife.  He has applied for a cancellation but they are not sure if he will get it.  But they can still get sealed in the temple if he doesn't get the cancellation.  So men can be sealed to more than one woman for eternity.  So polygamy in the celestial kingdom is ok

Here's my problem - this poor woman (and others in her situation or similar situations) could very well be faced with living polygamy for eternity, I mean she does need a temple marriage to get to the celestial kingdom.  So you're kind left with the choice of, live eternal polygamy or don't get sealed to your husband and accept lower degree of glory.

This doesn't sit well with me at all, polygamy is gone from the earth, but it seems to still have a place in heaven, if I had to live polygamy in heaven I wouldn't even want to go to heaven.

Is this just something left over from polygamy the church hasn't fixed yet?  Is there discussion with the church to get this changed?

How do women deal with this? I'd be heart broken

[Grunt]

Great question.   Please keep in mind that my response is ALL speculation and any doctrine that may support it is coincidental.  Someone will likely be along shortly to tell me to shut up.  

 

I believe you’re applying mortal characteristics to a spiritual state.  Why are we here?  God’s plan for us was to create Adam’s fallen state so he could receive mortality and populate the earth.  This allowed us to obtain bodies of flesh, form families, grow spiritually, and achieve exaltation.  It is a process for us.  The center of that process is the family.  

In the mortal sense, families are for growth and procreation. We learn unconditional love, devotion, teaching, and community.  What will that mean beyond the veil, though?  I don’t believe we will view “marriage” the same way we will now.  I believe our relationships will be more communal and collective.  We are ALL family in the spirit world, with lines and connections that transcend our mortal generations. We will be reunited with others we may have been very close to beyond the veil, yet did not even know in our mortal lives.  

Have you ever met someone you felt an instant kinship and/or love for, almost instantly?   I truly believe those are people we “remember” from our pre-mortal existence. The nature of our relationships previously are unknown to us now.  As such, the nature of our sealings in this life aren’t entirely defined beyond the veil.

 I’m not sure WHAT the nature of my relationship with my wife and children will be in the next part of my journey.  I do know it will be glorious, though, and I can’t wait for it.  Try not to put your mortal understanding of things onto God’s eternal plan.  We really don’t know the constructual details.

[askandanswer]

I don't know what the circumstances will be in the celestial kingdom regarding polygamy but I am 100% sure of this: everyone who is there will be happy and grateful to be there. No on there is going to be sorry or unhappy about anything. 

[Sunday21]

I just have faith that God will work things out. There are so many things about the next life that we do not understand, the arrangements in eternal marriages is just one more.

[zil]

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

This doesn't sit well with me at all, polygamy is gone from the earth, but it seems to still have a place in heaven, if I had to live polygamy in heaven I wouldn't even want to go to heaven.

If eternal marriage has always been a thing from the time Adam was sealed to Eve, and if God has ever allowed plural marriage (wherein a man is sealed for time and eternity to more than one woman), then even if it never happened again, yes, there would be plural marriage in eternity - by definition.  (See, for example, Jacob / Israel and his wives - presumably all sealed for eternity.)

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

Is there discussion with the church to get this changed?

This is not how the Lord works - the membership of the Church aren't citizens of a democracy who petition the government to change.  The Lord reveals eternal truth and commands his children to obey.  We choose whether or not to accept the will of the Lord.  (In other words, the Lord changes us, we don't change the Lord.  And this is not a "Church" thing, this comes from the Lord.)

Quote

Abraham 3:25-26

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

The way into the Celestial Kingdom is not just eternal marriage, but it is to do all things that the Lord commands.  Whether the Lord will command any given person to enter into plural marriage for eternity we do not know (though I personally assume that all those who have already, historically entered into plural marriage and who have kept their covenants such that they are worthy of celestial glory will remain in the plural marriages already sealed).

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

How do women deal with this? I'd be heart broken

I expect every woman deals with it differently.  I personally know women who have no problem with it (and women who have big problems with it).  I think the counsel given in the posts above mine is wise.  This much I know, as of right now, the requirement for celestial glory is for one man and one woman to be sealed to each other in an eternal marriage (and keep their various covenants).  There is no requirement right now for anyone to enter into plural marriage (not even the sort where wife #1 dies before the husband and he then chooses to marry another woman for eternity).  Thus, couples can discuss this and choose what to do.  That said, I go back to above Abraham 3 verses - those who enter the celestial kingdom will be those who have chosen, not against their will, but in full harmony, to obey all of God's commands, to the point where they have become one with him in all things.  Such people will not have the hang-ups we mortals have (they will have overcome the world - aka hang-ups).

It is my personal opinion that this is a simple numbers game - that plural marriage will exist if there are more females worthy of celestial glory than males - because I can't find a way for things to work otherwise.  (Given that I'm a mortal and therefore almost as dumb as a tack, my ability to find a way for things to work otherwise shouldn't be given much weight.)  Don't ask me what'll happen if there are more males than females (though I suspect things have been arranged such that it won't happen).  I am entirely certain that there won't be any unworthy promotions just to balance out the numbers, nor to tilt them in favor of "we need more women up here".

PS: I'm also increasingly of the opinion that the modern western world has an incorrect, skewed-by-Hollywood-romantic-comedies view of marriage.  I think marriage was more intended to be a social and spiritual construct for the purposes of enabling progress toward celestial glory in the best ways for the most individuals.  That love between a husband and wife was intended to be more as @anatess2 describes it - to bring one another closer to Christ - than the romantic love (which translates to hormones) that is so hyped today.  (Which isn't to say there's anything wrong with the romantic part - that's fabulous, and ought to come through the choices of the husband and wife - just that it doesn't make a stable foundation (in and of itself), nor, I think, was it meant to be the primary reason or end for marriage.)

Edited March 12, 2018 by zil

[Just_A_Guy]

34 minutes ago, zil said:

PS: I'm also increasingly of the opinion that the modern western world has an incorrect, skewed-by-Hollywood-romantic-comedies view of marriage.  I think marriage was more intended to be a social and spiritual construct for the purposes of enabling progress toward celestial glory in the best ways for the most individuals.  That love between a husband and wife was intended to be more as @anatess2 describes it - to bring one another closer to Christ - than the romantic love (which translates to hormones) that is so hyped today.  (Which isn't to say there's anything wrong with the romantic part - that's fabulous, and ought to come through the choices of the husband and wife - just that it doesn't make a stable foundation (in and of itself), nor, I think, was it meant to be the primary reason or end for marriage.)

Indeed.  For over eighty years, we have allowed our attitudes about love and marriage to be shaped by Hollywood—which itself is very possibly the most relationally dysfunctional subculture to ever emerge out of a western society.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Indeed.  For over eighty years, we have allowed our attitudes about love and marriage to be shaped by Hollywood—which itself is very possibly the most relationally dysfunctional subculture to ever emerge out of a western society.

The longer I live, the more I believe that every single one of Satan's attacks, subtle and glaringly obvious, have been against the family.  Whether they appear to be moral, political, economic, violent, or what-have-you, all have been for the intent of destroying the family and / or by the mechanism of destroying the family.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I've just been reading a thread about a lady who is getting sealed to her husband but he is still sealed to his ex wife.  He has applied for a cancellation but they are not sure if he will get it.  But they can still get sealed in the temple if he doesn't get the cancellation.  So men can be sealed to more than one woman for eternity.  So polygamy in the celestial kingdom is ok

Here's my problem - this poor woman (and others in her situation or similar situations) could very well be faced with living polygamy for eternity, I mean she does need a temple marriage to get to the celestial kingdom.  So you're kind left with the choice of, live eternal polygamy or don't get sealed to your husband and accept lower degree of glory.

This doesn't sit well with me at all, polygamy is gone from the earth, but it seems to still have a place in heaven, if I had to live polygamy in heaven I wouldn't even want to go to heaven.

Is this just something left over from polygamy the church hasn't fixed yet?  Is there discussion with the church to get this changed?

How do women deal with this? I'd be heart broken

Just because men can be sealed to more than one woman does not mean the Holy Spirit of Promise will ratify each marriage. The Holy Spirit of Promise has to ratify any sealing that is performed in the temple in order for it to persist in the exalted world, and He won't ratify that which is not in accordance with the desires of the consenting agents and God.

[person0]

5 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

if I had to live polygamy in heaven I wouldn't even want to go to heaven.

Many of us have answered this type of question many times.  So before I respond, I am curious to know, what specifically is it about polygamy that bothers you?  And, why does that particular thing bother you?

[Jane_Doe]

6 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

I've just been reading a thread about a lady who is getting sealed to her husband but he is still sealed to his ex wife.  He has applied for a cancellation but they are not sure if he will get it.  But they can still get sealed in the temple if he doesn't get the cancellation.  So men can be sealed to more than one woman for eternity.  So polygamy in the celestial kingdom is ok

Well, it's not like God's going to go up to Jacob/Father Israel's 4 wives and say "Guess what, sucks to be 3 of the 4 of you."   

[NeuroTypical]

7 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

How do women deal with this? I'd be heart broken

Well, think about it.  If you believe that our souls are eternal, and you believe we continue to exist into the eternities with our personalities/memories/loves intact, then there absolutely has to be a way to deal with this stuff.  

Consider these scenarios:
- A sealed couple, deeply in love, suffers tragedy when the husband/dad dies.  The wife is in her '30's.  Is she expected to remain single and unloved the rest of her life, so she won't hurt dead hubby's feelings as they spend eternity together?
- Said wife remarries and spends 50 years with new hubby.  They have kids too.  What's the best way to handle this in the eternities?  She now has two husbands, she's loved them both and they've both loved her, and children from both marriages.

- Same scenario, but this time the wife/mom dies.  Is husband expected to remain single and unloved the rest of his life, so he won't hurt dead wife's feelings?
- Said husband remarries and spends 50 years with new wife, and fathers children with her too.  What's the best way to handle this in the eternities?  He now has two wives, he's loved them both and they've both loved him.

If you believe we stay us in the eternities, if you believe marriage is eternal, there has to be a way this is sorted out.  And whatever way it is, means all the other ways aren't the way.  Someone ends up with two eternal spouses.  Someone ends up with no eternal spouse.

Much of Christianity just figure we don't stay married, or human.  We lose whatever we have here on earth, and become angels, content to exist in a constant state of worship and adoration of God.  And our earthly loves and relationships and commitments just dissolve and are replaced by God's love.  I guess that's a "make sure nobody gets their feelings hurt" way to see the eternities.  Mormons don't believe that.

This is one of the more tenderhearted and sensitive aspects of our beliefs on eternal marriage.

[zil]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, think about it.  If you believe that our souls are eternal, and you believe we continue to exist into the eternities with our personalities/memories/loves intact, then there absolutely has to be a way to deal with this stuff.  

Consider these scenarios:

You forgot the fact that eternity is a really, really, really long time.  Halfway through the 13th eon, you might be wishing you could send him off to pester someone else for a change...

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

This is one of the more tenderhearted and sensitive aspects of our beliefs on eternal marriage.

Oh, I see, you were only going for the tenderhearted and sensitive things...  Nevermind.

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, zil said:

You forgot the fact that eternity is a really, really, really long time.  Halfway through the 13th eon, you might be wishing you could send him off to pester someone else for a change...

You would know.  You're the expert at this.  You got a compound!

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Blossom76 said:

This doesn't sit well with me at all, polygamy is gone from the earth, but it seems to still have a place in heaven, if I had to live polygamy in heaven I wouldn't even want to go to heaven.

While that is your choice, I'm having difficulty understanding why.  All the so-called problems of polygamy are due to mortal imperfections.

1) Lust
2) Jealousy
3) Favoritism
4) Neglect
5) Treating women as objects
6) Selfishness
7) Bickering and arguing
8) Power struggles

None of these exist in Heaven.  Take all these out and what exactly is the problem?  I tend to think that people think that when we're in heaven, we get to keep all our mortal imperfections.  No.  We don't.  That's how we get there in the first place. 

It's not about you choosing whether or not you want heaven.  It is about us losing all our imperfections, our sins, weaknesses, sorrows, evil tendencies, and handing them over to God.  We become a new self.  We are reborn in the image of our Savior through his atoning blood.  But somehow people think this means we'll still be jealous and lustful, etc. 

So, no.  I just don't understand it.  What is the downside?

[NeuroTypical]

Well, I can get blossom's difficulties.  I've known people in this situation, seen their struggles and no small amount of anguish with which they needed to deal.

The "downside" is, if you marry someone who was previously sealed and spend 50 of the best years of your life with them, when you die, one of two things will happen.
- If you're a guy, you're no longer sealed to her, because she's someone else's eternal wife, and you only had a marriage for time only.
- If you're a girl, you now 'share' him with his first wife.

Now, I believe, like Carb does, that in the eternities this will not be a problem, because by definition, if we are exalted, we will have left all our mortal imperfections and sins and jealousies and immaturities behind us.  It will literally be ok, we will literally will be fine with how things are.

That said, here in our mortal bodies, on good old imperfect earth, such realities can be really hard to understand, accept, and bear.  Maybe even so hard that we end up making different marriage or faith choices.  Our limited human perspectives, as temporary and flawed as they are, are what we've got to work with here on Earth.  Spending 50 years with your soul mate, faced with the prospect that she's really someone else's soul mate?  Or faced with the prospect that you aren't his only soulmate?  This can be a chunk to chew on.

 

[Rob Osborn]

I find it quite the paradox when I see fellow Mormons, most of whom come from a polgamous heritage, complain about doing away with polygamy, how it was wrong, etc. Does this mean you hate your grandparents and wish their relationship never existed and in so doing erase yourself from existence?

The truth is that the strength of our Latter day church is based upon the fact that God did command polygamy to raise up a righteous family of saints that could withstand the world and stabilize the church in the late 1800's. From those numerous polygamous marriages came tens, even hundreds of thousands of posterity that still sustain the main strength of the church.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, I can get blossom's difficulties.  I've known people in this situation, seen their struggles and no small amount of anguish with which they needed to deal.

The "downside" is, if you marry someone who was previously sealed and spend 50 of the best years of your life with them, when you die, one of two things will happen.
- If you're a guy, you're no longer sealed to her, because she's someone else's eternal wife, and you only had a marriage for time only.
- If you're a girl, you now 'share' him with his first wife.

Now, I believe, like Carb does, that in the eternities this will not be a problem, because by definition, if we are exalted, we will have left all our mortal imperfections and sins and jealousies and immaturities behind us.  It will literally be ok, we will literally will be fine with how things are.

That said, here in our mortal bodies, on good old imperfect earth, such realities can be really hard to understand, accept, and bear.  Maybe even so hard that we end up making different marriage or faith choices.  Our limited human perspectives, as temporary and flawed as they are, are what we've got to work with here on Earth.  Spending 50 years with your soul mate, faced with the prospect that she's really someone else's soul mate?  Or faced with the prospect that you aren't his only soulmate?  This can be a chunk to chew on.

This would give men a bigger reason to have a problem with this than women.  To "have to share" is something we'll eventually get over.  But to "lose her for eternity" to another is not something that would be easy to get over.

Women are asked to share (if it can be called that).

Men could potentially lose forever and potentially lose their exaltation because their wife chose another?  That is more difficult to accept than sharing.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Guest

[Blossom76]

6 hours ago, person0 said:

Many of us have answered this type of question many times.  So before I respond, I am curious to know, what specifically is it about polygamy that bothers you?  And, why does that particular thing bother you?

Having my husband married to another woman for all eternity bothers me.  If the garden of eden was the ideal way to live, there was no polygamy, god made Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve and Shirley.  I don't understand why LDS women would accept this,  I certainly never will.

And if the church really took polygamy from the earth because God said so rather than political reasons, then surely that revelation would make it is gone from heaven too, otherwise whats the point

[wenglund]

I asked this question on the other thread, but it bears repeating here, and is a bit more specific than the question posed by @person0 .

Is the revulsion to sharing a husband culture-based?

I ask because it is likely that the culture in heaven will be different, if not quite different, than what exists in our little corner on earth.

If it isn't culture-based, then what exactly is the basis of the revulsion? What about it bothers you (the Garden can't be used as a model since it only contained one man and one woman, unlike the billions of men and women on the earth today)? 

Just curious.

Thanks, -Wade ENglund-

Edited March 13, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This would give men a bigger reason to have a problem with this than women.  To "have to share" is something we'll eventually get over. 

Yes. And, this includes men having to get over "sharing" themselves and their resources with multiple women, some of who they may not at first love or towards whom they may not be attracted.

If the focus is shifted from self to others, or from having one's own needs met to fulfilling the needs of others, it seems to me that the major repelling onus for plural marriage is on the man rather than the women. It is hard enough for one man to be married to one women....

I will leave it at that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 13, 2018 by wenglund

[NeuroTypical]

Ok Blossom, you play god for a minute.  How would you do it?

A man marries the woman of his dreams, and they live together in blissful unity for 5 years and have two infant children.  She dies tragically in a car wreck.  3 years later, he remarries you.  You are in total love with him and adore his children, and you raise the kids like your own, and you are a superb wife and mother, and they treat you as such.  Your marriage to this man lasts 50 years of blissful peace.

So, you both die peacefully in your sleep within months of each other.  You both go to heaven.  Blossom - there's the bio mom.   You don't like the answer the church gives, so write a different one.  If you were god, how would you do it?  The biological mother gets the kids you've raised and made your own, and the husband, and screw you?  She gets the kids (even though you were the only mother they ever knew), and you get the husband?  You get the kids and screw wife #1?  Or do you have some sort of other option?

I'm genuinely interested - since the LDS end to this story doesn't work for you, write a better ending here that everyone here on earth can get behind with no qualms.

Edited March 12, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[zil]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

Having my husband married to another woman for all eternity bothers me.

Since this hasn't happened, I would suggest that it's the possibility that it could happen which bothers you.  But frankly, at the moment, there is no likelihood of it happening - he hasn't accepted any ordinance in that Church which teaches these things, let alone entered into a second marriage covenant.  Even if he had gone as far as a first eternal marriage with you, there is no certainty that he would be required to enter into a second one.  And just because others have already entered into multiple eternal marriages doesn't guarantee that anyone (let alone everyone) else will have to.

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

If the garden of eden was the ideal way to live

It wasn't.  It was the correct place to get things rolling on planet earth.  Had Adam and Eve remained in Eden, the rest of us would be twiddling our thumbs in the pre-mortal existence wishing they would get on with it already.  Further (see 2 Nephi 2):

Quote

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

That doesn't sound like an ideal way to live - exaltation in the celestial kingdom is the ideal way to live.

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

And if the church really took polygamy from the earth because God said so rather than political reasons, then surely that revelation would make it is gone from heaven too, otherwise whats the point

It wasn't the Church who gave and then took away polygamy - it was the Lord.  And he explains via Jacob (the BofM one, not the OT one) why (see Jacob 2):

Quote

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

...

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

In other words, if God wishes to raise up seed, he will command plural marriage, otherwise, only one man and one wife.  But either way, when a marriage is established by the ordinance set up by God, it is for eternity.

Edited March 12, 2018 by zil

[Blossom76]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

While that is your choice, I'm having difficulty understanding why.  All the so-called problems of polygamy are due to mortal imperfections.

1) Lust
2) Jealousy
3) Favoritism
4) Neglect
5) Treating women as objects
6) Selfishness
7) Bickering and arguing
8) Power struggles

None of these exist in Heaven.  Take all these out and what exactly is the problem?  I tend to think that people think that when we're in heaven, we get to keep all our mortal imperfections.  No.  We don't.  That's how we get there in the first place. 

It's not about you choosing whether or not you want heaven.  It is about us losing all our imperfections, our sins, weaknesses, sorrows, evil tendencies, and handing them over to God.  We become a new self.  We are reborn in the image of our Savior through his atoning blood.  But somehow people think this means we'll still be jealous and lustful, etc. 

So, no.  I just don't understand it.  What is the downside?

The downside is women are forced to make a choice, live in heaven with God and Jesus and accept the fact that you might have to live polygamy for eternity - or don't be with God at all.  I hardly think God would force women to accept polygamy via blackmail, and thats what that is, spiritual blackmail.  No thanks

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Blossom76 said:

The downside is women are forced to make a choice, live in heaven with God and Jesus and accept the fact that you might have to live polygamy for eternity - or don't be with God at all.  I hardly think God would force women to accept polygamy via blackmail, and thats what that is, spiritual blackmail.  No thanks

I truly do not understand. How is this different from the requirement that, to live with God, you have to be selfless, or generous, or think of others, or worship only God, or sacrifice everything you own and everything you value for the kingdom of God, or literally anything else God commands of those who dwell with him? Are those things also "spiritual blackmail"? Or is there something special about the idea of plural marriage that sets it apart from any other commandment God gives?

[Vort]

For the record, I am no apologist for plural marriage, except in the idea that if God commands it, it's the right thing to do, same as any other commandment. I spend little (I'd say zero) time trying to convince either myself or anyone else that plural marriage is really a great way to live. It doesn't touch me directly, and I have no interest in trying to sell others on something that holds little interest for me at this time.

That said, I always wonder at those who say, "If God commands Thus-And-Such, he's an evil pervert and I hate him!" Such people appear to have forgotten that God commanded Abraham to offer his son Isaac up as a blood sacrifice; that he caused a young virgin to become scandalously pregnant; and that Jesus himself very clearly taught that anyone who puts father, mother, son, daughter, wife, or husband ahead of him is not fit for the kingdom.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Vort