Are animals damned?

[EricM]

I've been reflecting upon the plan of salvation and how, as part of this, animals will be taking part in the resurrection. As we know, for mankind, there will be resurrection unto eternal life, and resurrection unto damnation. Salvation unto eternal life means eternal progression and an eternal increase. Damnation in this context will mean limited progression due to not attaining the highest degree of glory. Animals, on the other hand, seem to be locked into where they are as far as I can tell. Wouldn't this be damnation? 

Some additional thoughts I have on the topic are the idea that resurrection for animals seems troubling. As you recall, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword were placed before the Tree of Life lest Adam and Eve partake of its fruit and "live forever in their sins." Again, this sounds akin to resurrection unto damnation, but would be immortality unto damnation. So would resurrecting a lower level of intelligence stop its progression? When humans were only intelligences, were we still different from animals, or are animals part of the progression? 

Lastly, I feel that one piece of the puzzle could be related to the beasts in the revelation of John. We learn in D&C that these beasts are not merely symbolic, but actual animals. Do animals maybe have a different path of progression than humans do, serving different roles in the kingdom than man? (Which wouldn't be far-fetched, considering that is the case in mortality.)

I'm interested in your ideas and experience on this subject!

Edited March 12, 2018 by EricM

[NeuroTypical]

Not sure why eight gazillion fubrillion muchillion alotillion mosquitoes would even want to progress.  But if they do, I'm left with faith that the Author of the universe has a plan for it, and my own limited ability to comprehend infinity shouldn't trouble me.   I'll be happy if I get to see my childhood dog again.

[Rob Osborn]

20 minutes ago, EricM said:

I've been reflecting upon the plan of salvation and how, as part of this, animals will be taking part in the resurrection. As we know, for mankind, there will be resurrection unto eternal life, and resurrection unto damnation. Salvation unto eternal life means eternal progression and an eternal increase. Damnation in this context will mean limited progression due to not attaining the highest degree of glory. Animals, on the other hand, seem to be locked into where they are as far as I can tell. Wouldn't this be damnation? 

Some additional thoughts I have on the topic are the idea that resurrection for animals seems troubling. As you recall, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword were placed before the Tree of Life lest Adam and Eve partake of its fruit and "live forever in their sins." Again, this sounds akin to resurrection unto damnation, but would be immortality unto damnation. So would resurrecting a lower level of intelligence stop its progression? When humans were only intelligences, were we still different from animals, or are animals part of the progression? 

Lastly, I feel that one piece of the puzzle could be related to the beasts in the revelation of John. We learn in D&C that these beasts are not merely symbolic, but actual animals. Do animals maybe have a different path of progression than humans do, serving different roles in the kingdom than man? (Which wouldn't be far-fetched, considering that is the case in mortality.)

I'm interested in your ideas and experience on this subject!

No, animals wont be damned. "Damnation" means to be condemned to hell. Animals arent condemned to hell. Animals are placed within a sphere of their creation where their own perfection willl be for the purpose they were created for. They will always be happy for what they are and how they fit into their sphere of creation. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Not sure why eight gazillion fubrillion muchillion alotillion mosquitoes would even want to progress.  But if they do, I'm left with faith that the Author of the universe has a plan for it, and my own limited ability to comprehend infinity shouldn't trouble me.   I'll be happy if I get to see my childhood dog again.

We all know that mosquitoes are the primary exception to the rule "all animals go to heaven".  Mosquitoes are the spawn of the devil and are forever possessed by the spirits of the Sons of Perdition.  Ergo, mosquitoes don't exist in heaven.  They are the very tools of torment in hell.

[zil]

Just now, Carborendum said:

We all know that mosquitoes are the primary exception to the rule "all animals go to heaven".  Mosquitoes are the spawn of the devil and are forever possessed by the spirits of the Sons of Perdition.  Ergo, mosquitoes don't exist in heaven.  They are the very tools of torment in hell.

What's more, they're condemned to an eternity of wanting to suck blood out of creatures which don't have any blood!

[NeuroTypical]

They won't want to suck blood in the eternities.  Some animals can actually rise above such base desires in this life, like this guy.  "Flies?  Nah - just wanna be FABULOUS!"

 

[The Folk Prophet]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

"Damnation" means to be condemned to hell. 

No it doesn't. It means to be stopped from eternal progression.

[zil]

45 minutes ago, EricM said:

I've been reflecting upon the plan of salvation and how, as part of this, animals will be taking part in the resurrection. As we know, for mankind, there will be resurrection unto eternal life, and resurrection unto damnation. Salvation unto eternal life means eternal progression and an eternal increase. Damnation in this context will mean limited progression due to not attaining the highest degree of glory. Animals, on the other hand, seem to be locked into where they are as far as I can tell. Wouldn't this be damnation? 

Some additional thoughts I have on the topic are the idea that resurrection for animals seems troubling. As you recall, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword were placed before the Tree of Life lest Adam and Eve partake of its fruit and "live forever in their sins." Again, this sounds akin to resurrection unto damnation, but would be immortality unto damnation. So would resurrecting a lower level of intelligence stop its progression? When humans were only intelligences, were we still different from animals, or are animals part of the progression? 

Lastly, I feel that one piece of the puzzle could be related to the beasts in the revelation of John. We learn in D&C that these beasts are not merely symbolic, but actual animals. Do animals maybe have a different path of progression than humans do, serving different roles in the kingdom than man? (Which wouldn't be far-fetched, considering that is the case in mortality.)

I'm interested in your ideas and experience on this subject!

Random thoughts...

Not a lot revealed on this, so this is pretty much speculation and deduction.  (Not at home, so I can't search, but didn't Joseph Smith say that animals would be resurrected and that humans would be able to communicate with them?)

Animal spirits and intelligences are presumably not the same as human intelligences.  Therefore, it is illogical to assume that unless they (the animals) can progress to be like God, they are somehow damned.

Scriptures teach that the planet Earth lives the celestial law by filling the measure of its creation and that therefore it will receive celestial glory.  If the Earth can do this, surely animals can.  (Further, when was the last time you saw a dog, for example, failing to fill the measure of its creation - as opposed to a human?)

Finally, at least one key element of exaltation for humans is eternal lives - that is, eternal procreation - the ability to create spirit children.  Where, pray tell, do you think the spirits of animals come from if not from exalted animals creating the spirits for them?  (Now I could be entirely wrong, and perhaps God creates the spirits of animals differently from how the spirits of humans are created, but I personally suspect that it's the same pattern, just different exalted entities.)  If "continuation of seed" is how man receives glory in the next life, why would it not be the same for animals?

Edited March 12, 2018 by zil

[Sunday21]

What about..ugh..snakes? ?

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

No it doesn't. It means to be stopped from eternal progression.

Where does it say that in the scriptures? Damnation always means to be condemned to hell.

[EricM]

28 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Where does it say that in the scriptures? Damnation always means to be condemned to hell.

Hey Rob! If you're LDS, this is what the Guide to the Scriptures states:

"The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent."

This is just from a cursory search. I can search further if you would like more specific references.

[zil]

29 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

What about..ugh..snakes? ?

Spirit snakes gotta come from somewhere.  And, again, when was the last time you saw a snake not living up to the measure of its creation?  Just cuz you don't like snakes doesn't mean there isn't a purpose in their creation, nor does it mean any given snake isn't living up to the measure of its creation.

[zil]

[Aside: Crud.  You'd think we could get through a thread without falling into this abyss again, but here we go.]

[EricM]

4 minutes ago, zil said:

Spirit snakes gotta come from somewhere.  And, again, when was the last time you saw a snake not living up to the measure of its creation?  Just cuz you don't like snakes doesn't mean there isn't a purpose in their creation, nor does it mean any given snake isn't living up to the measure of its creation.

Also, snakes are originally representative of the Savior. That's why Satan emulated it in the Garden, as well as the reason behind Moses holding up the bronze snake.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, EricM said:

I've been reflecting upon the plan of salvation and how, as part of this, animals will be taking part in the resurrection. As we know, for mankind, there will be resurrection unto eternal life, and resurrection unto damnation. Salvation unto eternal life means eternal progression and an eternal increase. Damnation in this context will mean limited progression due to not attaining the highest degree of glory. Animals, on the other hand, seem to be locked into where they are as far as I can tell. Wouldn't this be damnation? 

Some additional thoughts I have on the topic are the idea that resurrection for animals seems troubling. As you recall, when Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and a flaming sword were placed before the Tree of Life lest Adam and Eve partake of its fruit and "live forever in their sins." Again, this sounds akin to resurrection unto damnation, but would be immortality unto damnation. So would resurrecting a lower level of intelligence stop its progression? When humans were only intelligences, were we still different from animals, or are animals part of the progression? 

Lastly, I feel that one piece of the puzzle could be related to the beasts in the revelation of John. We learn in D&C that these beasts are not merely symbolic, but actual animals. Do animals maybe have a different path of progression than humans do, serving different roles in the kingdom than man? (Which wouldn't be far-fetched, considering that is the case in mortality.)

I'm interested in your ideas and experience on this subject!

D&C 77: 3 says:

  3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?
  A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.

My personal opinion is that they serve roles and purposes in the kingdom that are necessary for our exaltation. If exaltation is a glorious version of this one, as this one is a fallen version of paradise, they rely on our righteous "dominion" (Moses 2:26) and we rely on their usefulness (Moss 3:7-9).

[eVa]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

D&C 77: 3 says:

  3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?
  A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.

My personal opinion is that they serve roles and purposes in the kingdom that are necessary for our exaltation. If exaltation is a glorious version of this one, as this one is a fallen version of paradise, they rely on our righteous "dominion" (Moses 2:26) and we rely on their usefulness (Moss 3:7-9).

Is their sphere one that we would have the opportunity to visit?

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Where does it say that in the scriptures? Damnation always means to be condemned to hell.

Why don't you do your own research? Here's a start:

https://www.lds.org/search?q=damnation&lang=eng&domains=manuals

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, zil said:

...You'd think we could get through a thread without falling into this abyss again,...

Where on earth would you get that idea?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why don't you do your own research? Here's a start:

https://www.lds.org/search?q=damnation&lang=eng&domains=manuals

You're assuming of course that Rob actually cares what Church Manuals say.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

D&C 77: 3 says:

  3 Q. Are the four beasts limited to individual beasts, or do they represent classes or orders?
  A. They are limited to four individual beasts, which were shown to John, to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order or sphere of creation, in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity.

My personal opinion is that they serve roles and purposes in the kingdom that are necessary for our exaltation. If exaltation is a glorious version of this one, as this one is a fallen version of paradise, they rely on our righteous "dominion" (Moses 2:26) and we rely on their usefulness (Moss 3:7-9).

That doesn't really match what he says.

a) Individual beasts.
b) represent GLORY and CLASSES of BEINGS in their destined ORDER or SPHERE ... of CREATION.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, eVa said:

Is their sphere one that we would have the opportunity to visit?

In my opinion, yes.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

That doesn't really match what he says.

a) Individual beasts.
b) represent GLORY and CLASSES of BEINGS in their destined ORDER or SPHERE ... of CREATION.

I guess that would depend on what is meant by "eternal" (unending, celestial, or exalted) and whether the  "classes of beings" referred to exclude the posterity of Adam, and which we would refer to as animals. I would say our "destined order or sphere of creation"  is the Earth (for now, mortal; someday Millennial and then immortal and celestial). We share the same sphere with the other classes of beings., and it seems we would share it later (for example, the Millennium has wolves, lambs, leopards, kids, calves, cows, bears, lions, asps and cockatrices living with us).

[Sunday21]

@EricM Welcome! Good to have you here!

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, EricM said:

Hey Rob! If you're LDS, this is what the Guide to the Scriptures states:

"The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent."

This is just from a cursory search. I can search further if you would like more specific references.

Give me an actual scripture then we can talk.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You're assuming of course that Rob actually cares what Church Manuals say.

I care what the scriptures actually say. Thats all.

[The Folk Prophet]

18 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You're assuming of course that Rob actually cares what Church Manuals say.

I assume nothing of the sort. I'm well aware that Rob has his own church. I'm just waiting for him to make the official announcement one of these days.