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34 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I said what I said. I'll repeat it, though I'm sure you'll continue to read things into it that aren't there. The Spirit has never testified to you that the prophet's and apostle's teachings on the plan of salvation are wrong. Of that much, I am quite certain

I wasnt asking that. Im asking in specific regards to "damnation".

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, when I saked for the truth in regards to damnation (and believe me, Ive asked) in my prayers the spirit witnesses to me that it means condemnation to hell that you are saying my witness is wrong?

No. You are correct in understanding one layer of meaning. You just fail to grasp the other layer.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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9 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I understand where you are coming from, but your thinking is "damned" in comprehension. ;)

1. Satan and a 3rd of the hosts of heaven are stopped in their progression unto Godhood  contrary to the plan.. Even fallen man is temporarily stooped in their progression unto Godhead except or until they repent and receive the necessary ordinances of salvation and exaltation.

2. Those in torment are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) in their progression unto Godly joy., contrary to the plan.

3. Those in darkness are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) in their progression unto Godly light, contrary to the plan.

4. Those confined to Satan's grasp and presence are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) in their progression unto Godly presence, contrary to the plan.

5. Those in hell are stopped (temporarily or otherwise) from progression to Godly heaven., contrary to the plan.

For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, there are layers of meaning, particularly given the added LDS context of the Plan of Progression.

As always, you are free to believe otherwise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

How are those in spirit prison stopped in their progression? If they are repenting and their proxy work is complete and they advance into paradise that is not "being stopped from progression".

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2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

No. You are correct in understanding one layer of meaning. You just fail to grasp the other layer.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. For instance, I did a lot of research into how Joseph Smith used the words "damned/damnation" and its spot on that he used it exclusively in the context of condemnation to hell. Thus, when he translated and wrote scripture, every instance of the word in LDS scripture is used in that context. That was the truth revealed through him. So, when I receive that same witness of that correct definition I am not receiving any new doctrine, only that which was already revealed through Joseph Smith the prophet. I am not claiming I have received a witness in regards to a new doctrine. There just arent other layers of meaning with the word damnation. It only has one meaning and it always, and only, means to be condemned to hell.

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2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How are those in spirit prison stopped in their progression? If they are repenting and their proxy work is complete and they advance into paradise that is not "being stopped from progression".

As previously noted, those in spirit prison, as with those on earth, are stopped in their progression except or until they repent and receive the saving and exalting ordinances.

However, to grasp this, one would have to think beyond a binary mind.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Just now, Rob Osborn said:

I wasnt asking that. Im asking in specific regards to "damnation".

I honestly don't know how to be more clear. I feel like the problem is in the flawed question.

Yes -- clearly a meaning of damnation is "condemned to hell". But you believe it is the ONLY meaning. Did you ask if it was the ONLY meaning? And even then...let's say it is the ONLY meaning. What does condemned mean? Does IT only have one meaning too? Isn't it, after all, synonymous with "damned"? Doesn't "condemnation" mean "damned to hell"? But do either of those words have the singular meaning you are trying to ascribe to them? A meaning that is circular because the description and the word are synonyms rather than explanations or definitions? So did you pray about that level of detail? And what about "hell"? What does that mean? Based on your descriptions of what you think the plan of salvation means, etc., you're understanding of hell is not in line with the complete teachings of the church, the prophets and apostles on the matter. So in your prayers for confirmation did you ask if "hell" meant what you think it means...and, moreover, did you ask if it ONLY meant that? Did you ask if "hell" might have different layers and meanings and implications?

Your question is simply too complicated to give a specific yes or no answer to.

So what I answer is this: The Spirit has never testified to you that the prophet's and apostle's teachings on the plan of salvation are wrong. Of that much, I am quite certain.

If you feel the Spirit has told you something that is contrary to what the prophet's and apostle's collectively commonly teach then you are deceived.

The funny thing is that I started out by saying "no it doesn't" when you said that damnation meant condemned to hell. I should have been more clear. That is a meaning of it. It is simply incomplete, over-simplified, and less useful than the greater knowledge we have actually been given by our latter-day prophets.

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14 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How are those in spirit prison stopped in their progression? 

Lack of knowledge. As in lack of truth. As in lack of light.

When they receive and accept that knowledge (truth/light) they are no longer stopped from progressing.

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1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other. For instance, I did a lot of research into how Joseph Smith used the words "damned/damnation" and its spot on that he used it exclusively in the context of condemnation to hell. Thus, when he translated and wrote scripture, every instance of the word in LDS scripture is used in that context. That was the truth revealed through him. So, when I receive that same witness of that correct definition I am not receiving any new doctrine, only that which was already revealed through Joseph Smith the prophet. I am not claiming I have received a witness in regards to a new doctrine. There just arent other layers of meaning with the word damnation. It only has one meaning and it always, and only, means to be condemned to hell.

I am not sure of the extent of your research, But Joseph actually defines "damnation to hell," and he does so in the context of required ordinances for entering the Kingdom of God, and that those who attempt to gain access otherwise, will do so in vain--i.e. they will be stopped in their progression.

Quote

"“Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the kingdom of God, ‘for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,’ said the Savior [see John 3:5]. It is a sign and a commandment which God has set for man to enter into His kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; for God will not receive them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted, for they have not obeyed the ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him for, and give him a title to, a celestial glory; and God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands." (see HERE)

Perhaps the reason you missed this is because Joseph is being quoted in one of the priesthood manuals.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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14 minutes ago, wenglund said:

As previously noted, those in spirit prison, as with those on earth, are stopped in their progression except or until they repent and receive the saving and exalting ordinances.

However, to grasp this, one would have to think beyond a binary mind.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, under your definition, we are damned right now. Tell me, where in the scriptures might I find this witness?

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11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

when you said that damnation meant condemned to hell. I should have been more clear. That is a meaning of it. It is simply incomplete, over-simplified, and less useful than the greater knowledge we have actually been given by our latter-day prophets.

It is "the" meaning.

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Just now, Rob Osborn said:

So, under your definition, we are damned right now. Tell me, where in the scriptures might I find this witness?

I can't provide you with scriptures for things I did not say. For whatever reason, you are not seeing the repeated qualifier in my statement. You need to look at my statement through a non-binary, non-"damned" lens.

Thanks, -wade Englund-

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16 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I am not sure of the extent of your research, But Joseph actually defines "damnation to hell," and he does so in the context of required ordinances for entering the Kingdom of God, and that those who attempt to gain access otherwise, will do so in vain--i.e. they will be stopped in their progression.

Perhaps the reason you missed this is because Joseph is being quoted in one of the priesthood manuals.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

FWIW, my interactions with Rob lead me to strongly believe that if we take him at his word that he's "researched" something extensively...then he really sucks at it.

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@Rob Osborn and @The Folk Prophet 

Sometimes in scripture terms are use as symbolic metaphors.  For example – “the Lamb of G-d” or the “Lyon of Juda”.  Even though a lamb and a Lyon are very different and have different meaning the symbolism can reference the same thing.  Symbolism in scripture exist such that the spirit is allowed latitude in understanding.  Or – a line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.   The official term used by scholars of ancient texts with more than one possible meaning, is dualism.   Dualism is not just an ancient use of literature but is often utilized in modern poetry and songs.   Example someone telling their loved one – “My love is deeper than the deepest ocean”.

Sometimes in scripture terms that seem to be the same; actually, have very different meanings.  An example are the terms “eternal life” and “immortality”

Many symbolic terms have parallels in societies – when this is the case often we try to understand by considering context.  The divine society of G-d is often called a “Kingdom” with G-d being the sovereign king.   In ancient kingdoms a citizen of the realm could be stripped of their titles and citizenship.  There were various levels of maledictions that could be pounced from a verbal chastisement to banishment or exile which was a loss of all liberties or rights in the kingdom but was less than being put to death.  Anciently any rebuke from a king was given the title of “damned” – the title often was used to describe either the person or the punishment or both.   This is where the meaning of the phrase “Damn you” came from.  Even though most people that use the phrase do not have the power to make such a statement – is it still used to imply a derogatory curse that can have many possible levels or implications.

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Back to the original question of whether animals are damned.....

IMO, I think that a dog who attacks a child without provocation is acting against an innate sense of right and wrong, and is likely to have a less enjoyable experience in the afterlife than a dog who sacrifices itself to save someone. I'd also like to think that guide dogs and companion animals who give up their whole life in the service of a person have a more enjoyable experience in the afterlife than just your average dog. 

This scripture might offer a clue but possibly doesn't provide an answer

Isaiah 11:6  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
 

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6 hours ago, wenglund said:

I can't provide you with scriptures for things I did not say. For whatever reason, you are not seeing the repeated qualifier in my statement. You need to look at my statement through a non-binary, non-"damned" lens.

Thanks, -wade Englund-

Its kind of funny that no one can produce a scripture to back up these tbings and definitions they speak of. 

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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

@Rob Osborn and @The Folk Prophet 

Sometimes in scripture terms are use as symbolic metaphors.  For example – “the Lamb of G-d” or the “Lyon of Juda”.  Even though a lamb and a Lyon are very different and have different meaning the symbolism can reference the same thing.  Symbolism in scripture exist such that the spirit is allowed latitude in understanding.  Or – a line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.   The official term used by scholars of ancient texts with more than one possible meaning, is dualism.   Dualism is not just an ancient use of literature but is often utilized in modern poetry and songs.   Example someone telling their loved one – “My love is deeper than the deepest ocean”.

Sometimes in scripture terms that seem to be the same; actually, have very different meanings.  An example are the terms “eternal life” and “immortality”

Many symbolic terms have parallels in societies – when this is the case often we try to understand by considering context.  The divine society of G-d is often called a “Kingdom” with G-d being the sovereign king.   In ancient kingdoms a citizen of the realm could be stripped of their titles and citizenship.  There were various levels of maledictions that could be pounced from a verbal chastisement to banishment or exile which was a loss of all liberties or rights in the kingdom but was less than being put to death.  Anciently any rebuke from a king was given the title of “damned” – the title often was used to describe either the person or the punishment or both.   This is where the meaning of the phrase “Damn you” came from.  Even though most people that use the phrase do not have the power to make such a statement – is it still used to imply a derogatory curse that can have many possible levels or implications.

Yeah, and none of them are included in tge designation of the saved. Why? Because, if one is saved, he is saved from damnation.

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10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

???

Why are you using the definition of one word in the use of another? Dam and damn are homonyms http://www.dictionary.com/browse/homonym

I was not doing what you have accused me of doing.  I am aware the words are homonyms.  I was using two distinct words with distinct meanings in an accurate contextual analogy.

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7 hours ago, wenglund said:

I am not sure of the extent of your research, But Joseph actually defines "damnation to hell," and he does so in the context of required ordinances for entering the Kingdom of God, and that those who attempt to gain access otherwise, will do so in vain--i.e. they will be stopped in their progression.

Perhaps the reason you missed this is because Joseph is being quoted in one of the priesthood manuals.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The important part is that damnation is used in context of condemnation to hell. I was unable to find even one instance where Joseph used damnation in the context of one being saved or receiving a lesser glory.

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its kind of funny that no one can produce a scripture to back up these tbings and definitions they speak of. 

Perhaps an analogy would help.

Let's liken the phrase "damned to hell" to a car breaking down  (damned) and ending up ion the side of the road, n the junk yard, or repair shop, etc. (hell). The phrase "broken down," like "damned," has a clear meaning--i.e the car is no longer functioning as it should. It is broken. In the narrow context of the phrase "the car is broken down to _(hell)_," that definition is understood and not disputed, and is the only definition that applies.

However, in the larger context of getting to where one wishes to go  in the car (progress), such as reaching the final destination of a long journey, the phrase "broken down to _____) takes on an additional legitimate meaning--i..e stopped in progress.

Now, if one is looking at narrow contexts, such as a scripture, for the larger context meaning, rather than rationally looking at the larger context such as temple narratives or sections of scripture,  they wont find it--not so funny that..

While this makes perfect sense to me, I suspect that it wont to a binary mind or a mind not capable of thinking beyond the narrow context.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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6 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Perhaps an analogy would help.

Let's liken the phrase "damned to hell" to a car breaking down  (damned) and ending up ion the side of the road, n the junk yard, or repair shop, etc. (hell). The phrase "broken down," like "damned," has a clear meaning--i.e the car is no longer functioning as it should. It is broken. In the narrow context of the phrase "the car is broken down to _(hell)_," that definition is understood and not disputed, and is the only definition that applies.

However, in the larger context of getting to where one wishes to go  in the car (progress), such as reaching the final destination of a long journey, the phrase "broken down to _____) takes on an additional legitimate meaning--i..e stopped in progress.

Now, if one is looking at narrow contexts, such as a scripture, for the larger context meaning, rather than rationally looking at the larger context such as temple narratives or sections of scripture,  they wont find it--not so funny that..

While this makes perfect sense to me, I suspect that it wont to a binary mind or a mind not capable of thinking beyond the narrow context.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Once again, an analogy is presented but no scripture is produced. Find me just "one" scripture where damnation means stopped in ones progress. For a super bonus find me one scripture where it describes a saved person but yet is damned in that salvation. I will bet it cant be done. Trust me, years ago I tried to refute an anti-Mormon with our standard unique definition and I found out I was wrong and he was right. No scripture exists. Dambation is always and exclusively used in the context of one who will be condemned to hell in a future tense or the state of one already in hell.

I await your scripture, no more analogies.

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27 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The important part is that damnation is used in context of condemnation to hell. I was unable to find even one instance where Joseph used damnation in the context of one being saved or receiving a lesser glory.

Actually, the words of the prophet Joseph that I quoted earlier were inbedded in the larger context of the story about when Joseph was translating the Gospel of John, and  John 5:29  in particular, which speaks of the resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation, "it became apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was completed."  To restore the removed or lost portions, D&C section 76 was revealed. (see intro)  That profound section begins and ends talking about the mysteries of the kingdom being revealed through the HJoly Ghost to the faithful. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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Just now, wenglund said:

Actually, the words of the prophet Joseph that I quoted earlier were inbedded in the larger context of the story about when Joseph was translating the Gospel of John, and  John 5:29  in particular, which speaks of the resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation, "it became apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was completed."  To restore the removed or lost portions, D&C section 76 was revealed. (see intro)  That profound section begins and ends talking about the mysteries of the kingdom being revealed through the HJoly Ghost to the faithful. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes, the resurrection unto damnation is those resurrected who then are cast into hell.

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7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Once again, an analogy is presented but no scripture is produced. Find me just "one" scripture where damnation means stopped in ones progress. For a super bonus find me one scripture where it describes a saved person but yet is damned in that salvation. I will bet it cant be done. Trust me, years ago I tried to refute an anti-Mormon with our standard unique definition and I found out I was wrong and he was right. No scripture exists. Dambation is always and exclusively used in the context of one who will be condemned to hell in a future tense or the state of one already in hell.

I await your scripture, no more analogies.

Some people you just can't reach. To them, the mysteries of the kingdom will remain just that.  Time for me to heed the serenity prayer.

I appreciate the back and forth. I learned much.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

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7 hours ago, wenglund said:

Some people you just can't reach. To them, the mysteries of the kingdom will remain just that.  Time for me to heed the serenity prayer.

I appreciate the back and forth. I learned much.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, no scripture eh? How can one know the mysteries without knowing the scriptures?

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