Bombing of General Conference - What if?


NeedleinA
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My wife, in a what if scenario, asked the question, "What if the conference center were bombed and everyone inside died at once, who would lead the church at that point?"
While I don't believe this would ever be allowed to occur, the question was a stumper to me. I'm sure doing some digging I could figure it out (maybe), but any thoughts? Basically, with many if not all the GAs in attendance, what would happen? Conference at times can feel like putting all your eggs in one basket.

I know with other big organizations/corporations, there are usually policies in place to keep "all" top people out of the same venue/conference. Many groups require upper management to take separate flights from one another just in case a flight should go down, etc.

Thoughts, who would be next?

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18 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

What if the conference center were bombed and everyone inside died at once

Has your wife recently watched King Ralph? :rolleyes: 

If the entire First Presidency and all the Apostles died at once, then all the keys would go with them.  Those who don't have all the keys can't merge together and somehow manufacture all the keys.  The Lord would have to restore the keys again.  Since we've been told that this has already happened for the last time, well, it's not going to happen - otherwise, the Lord would be a liar.

The question is like asking "what if I did this and didn't do this at the same time?" - It's an impossibility and therefore there is no answer.

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34 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m going off memory here, but it seems to me that John Taylor taught that the GA-70s collectively held the same keys as the Q12; which would permit any surviving 70s to reconstitute the Q12.

This doesn't sound right...though maybe. @zil's answer sounded more akin to my thoughts.

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https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/107.21-38?lang=eng#p20

We explicitly teach that each apostle receives all the keys, but doesn't have authority to use all of them unless he is ordained as the prophet / president.  I don't recall ever hearing that these keys are also given to each 70 when he is ordained (with similar limitation).  If they (the keys) are given, then yes, the surviving 70s (if any1) would lead; but if the 70s don't receive these keys, then we're back to the need for a restoration of keys.

1But I thought the hypothesis was that all GAs are killed.  Hmm.  @NeedleinA, we need your wife to be more specific - who is part of "everyone inside"? ;)

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Remember that there are general authorities not in the conference center but also in the Tabernacle during conference so not all Priesthood keys are lost.  

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4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

My wife, in a what if scenario, asked the question, "What if the conference center were bombed and everyone inside died at once, who would lead the church at that point?"

One Apostle at each Conference is actually a Disney animatronic.  The real one is kept hidden in Eatonton Georgia for the weekend, because absolutely nothing happens in Putnam County.

Edited by NightSG
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I've heard that the Lord occasionally visits His temples. It wouldn't be hard for Him to bring a set of keys when he does so and arrange to hand them over to someone. Actually, He probably never travels without them.

Edited by askandanswer
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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m going off memory here, but it seems to me that John Taylor taught that the GA-70s collectively held the same keys as the Q12; which would permit any surviving 70s to reconstitute the Q12.

I remember hearing this as well.

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""""" 

Quote

Seventies by delegation can do anything the Twelve tell them to do, and they can confer keys, which would be an extension of the keys of the Twelve.

(lds.org source)

Based on this I would assume that JAG is correct.  There is probably an instruction manual for the 70 that indicates the correct procedure.  I would assume all existing 70 would come together to first call the president's of the 70 and replace the missing 70.  Then they would reconstitute the quorum of the 12.  Following this, the quorum of 12 would determine whether or not to reconstitute the first presidency.  Then we would go back to business as usual.

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4 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’m going off memory here, but it seems to me that John Taylor taught that the GA-70s collectively held the same keys as the Q12; which would permit any surviving 70s to reconstitute the Q12.

I've heard this before as well.  But later I was corrected to the idea that the 70s don't hold any sealing keys.  Only apostles do.  So, if the 15 men die all at once, we have to have a new restoration through Heavenly Messengers.

Quote

Seventies by delegation can do anything the Twelve tell them to do, and they can confer keys, which would be an extension of the keys of the Twelve.

@person0, please note the bolded.

Edited by Guest
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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

@person0, please note the bolded.

I did.  My assumption is that if it is written it is the same as being delegated.  Also, 70 can ordain someone to the office of sealer by delegation, therefore I assume they have access to the sealing keys by delegation as well.  Once again, if the instructions are written, to me, this is the same as delegation.

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Aha!  I found it!

Quote

Likewise, the Seventy, who serve under the direction of the Twelve, would become equal in authority only in the event that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve were somehow destroyed.

(Gordon B. Hinckley)

Quote

25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named.

(D&C 107:25-26)

 

Edited by person0
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15 minutes ago, person0 said:

I did.  My assumption is that if it is written it is the same as being delegated.  Also, 70 can ordain someone to the office of sealer by delegation, therefore I assume they have access to the sealing keys by delegation as well.  Once again, if the instructions are written, to me, this is the same as delegation.

Huh?

14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A hypothetical:

Can the Q12 “delegate” the 70 to re-constitute the Q12 in the event of their simultaneous deaths? 

Same.

Remember what delegation means.  In gospel terms, it means that keys are "borrowed".  While we all have authority, the keys are held only by some.  And even the Seventies cannot utilize the keys they are delegated when the one who delegates them is dead.

Think about what caused the original apostasy.  It was that the apostles all died (or otherwise inaccessible -- i.e. John).

As a lawyer, you're probably thinking about a scenario like an executor of a will.  Such a thing does not have an equivalent in the gospel when it comes to sealing keys.  At least I've never heard of it.

If you can find something that says the 70s can take over (without delegation being involved) then I'd like to take a look at it.  Further, Needle's question would also be if all the 70s were killed as well.  Then you have all the sealers in temples and the temple presidents.

But have you ever considered why we have a solemn assembly each time a new Prophet is sustained?

Edited by Guest
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19 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

If you can find something that says the 70s can take over (without delegation being involved) then I'd like to take a look at it. 

See my above post right before this one.  I found it and posted it there.

Also, Needle's question is if only all 70 in attendance at conference were dead, not all of them in existence.

Edited by person0
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Slightly off-topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Thank_Thee,_O_God,_for_a_Prophet

While preparing to speak at a CES fireside being held at Brigham Young University's Marriott Center on February 7, 1993, Howard W. Hunter, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, was confronted by Cody Judy, who rushed onto the rostrum and threatened Hunter and the audience of 15,000 to 17,000. Judy carried a briefcase that he claimed contained a bomb and held what appeared to be a detonator-like device. Judy demanded that Hunter read a three-page document that supposedly detailed God's plan for Judy to lead the church, which Hunter refused to do. The audience spontaneously sang "We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet", during which students from the audience and then security personnel overtook Judy. After Judy was taken away, Hunter delivered his prepared remarks, a talk entitled "An Anchor to the Souls of Men".

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1 hour ago, person0 said:

See my above post right before this one.  I found it and posted it there.

Also, Needle's question is if only all 70 in attendance at conference were dead, not all of them in existence.

I read it.  It says "authority".  It doesn't mention "keys".

What I interpret is that if the apostles would all be killed, the Seventy would continue being organizational heads.  But we could not perform any temple ordinances.

As far as Needle's question, the context seemed to infer my interpetation.  I could be wrong.

Edited by Guest
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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I read it.  It says "authority".  It doesn't mention "keys".

What I interpret is that if the apostles would all be killed, the Seventy would continue being organizational heads.  But we could not perform any temple ordinances.

What if a member of the Q70, after the fact, claims that before their deaths the Q12 “rolled off” the keys of the sealing power onto the 70, the way Joseph Smith did to the Q12?

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Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

What if a member of the Q70, after the fact, claims that before their deaths the Q12 “rolled off” the keys of the sealing power onto the 70, the way Joseph Smith did to the Q12?

If they did indeed have the keys "conferred" and not "delegated" then that would effectively make them apostles.  Because in all other ways that I'm aware of, the 70s are equal to apostles. That is the distinguishing characteristic.

And, to be honest, if one were to state that, I'd need to pray and gain a testimony that such was the case.  It is believable.  But since it is not the normal expected sequence, I'd have to pray about it.

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Because in all other ways that I'm aware of, the 70s are equal to apostles. That is the distinguishing characteristic.

Even if you are correct about the sealing keys, (I am not yet convinced) given that the 70 as a whole would have the authority of the Q12, they could simply use that authority to authorize existing sealers or to confer upon the newly organized Q12 the sealing keys.  Seems like an easily resolved issue to me.

Edit: Additionally. . .

Quote

The President of the Church holds and exercises the keys of sealing on earth. When a man is ordained an apostle and set apart as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, sealing is one of the powers bestowed upon him. Other General Authorities of the Church, the presidencies of temples, and a limited number of officiators in each temple receive this sealing power during their tenure. After one is approved by the First Presidency to receive the sealing power, the President of the Church, one of his counselors, or a member of the Twelve Apostles specifically designated by the President confers the sealing power upon him by the laying on of hands.

(EOM - Sealing)

 

Edited by person0
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1 minute ago, person0 said:

Even if you are correct about the sealing keys, (I am not yet convinced) given that the 70 as a whole would have the authority of the Q12, they could simply use that authority to authorize existing sealers or to confer upon the newly organized Q12 the sealing keys.  Seems like an easily resolved issue to me.

That would be like saying that a group of priests could ordain an elder.  No.

All the sealers in temples also have "delegated" keys.  If the Houston Temple were open I'd go ask the temple president what happens with his keys when the prophet dies.  But that would still be different if NO apostles remain.

If anyone else can get to a temple and ask the temple president about this I'd be interested in hearing what they say.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

That would be like saying that a group of priests could ordain an elder.  No.

It really would not be like that.  They are not giving something they don't have.  See also additional quote supplies from EOM.  The sealing power is the sealing powe that is bestowed.  It is not just the authority to use it that is conferred, but the power itself.  It is the same way that the Q12 can ordain a new prophet. 

Anyway, I have a drive ahead of me.  It will be about an hour before I can get back on.

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2 minutes ago, person0 said:

It really would not be like that.  They are not giving something they don't have. 

We disagree.  I'm actually saying that they DON'T have the keys.  

2 minutes ago, person0 said:

See also additional quote supplies from EOM.  The sealing power is the sealing powe that is bestowed.  It is not just the authority to use it that is conferred, but the power itself. 

OK

Quote

The President of the Church holds and exercises the keys of sealing on earth. When a man is ordained an apostle and set apart as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, sealing is one of the powers bestowed upon him. Other General Authorities of the Church, the presidencies of temples, and a limited number of officiators in each temple receive this sealing power during their tenure. After one is approved by the First Presidency to receive the sealing power, the President of the Church, one of his counselors, or a member of the Twelve Apostles specifically designated by the President confers the sealing power upon him by the laying on of hands. This is the specific authority to perform the temple sealing ordinances.

Again keys vs authority.  You pointed to the word "power".  Notice the final bolded:  The "power" is the "authority" not "keys".

Quote

Inherent in the Twelve's proposal was the assumption that, although the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles had equal authority and power with the Quorum of the First Presidency, as long as the First Presidency was intact and functioning, they, and not the Twelve, possess the necessary jurisdiction to govern the Church. But the death of the president, thereby disorganizing the presidency and automatically releasing the president's counselors, bestows on the Quorum of the Twelve the required authorization to exercise the keys they already possess and assume full responsibility for governing the Church-including the reorganization of the First Presidency. 

-- EOM, Succession in the Presidency.

The apostles have all the keys.

2 minutes ago, person0 said:

It is the same way that the Q12 can ordain a new prophet. 

Do they?  I thought we had a discussion about that.  Sometimes it is called "ordained".  But it is really being set apart.  The office of President of the Church is not an office in the priesthood like Elder  or High Priest.  It is a position like Quorum President.

And all the apostles hold the keys to set one apart to the office of "President of the Church".

 

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