Earl

Was Cain the son of Serpent ?

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Mordorbund asked me if I believe Cain was the son of Serpent

Mainstream Christianity believes Cain was the son of Adam .

However ,the christian people I have discussed this with over the years fail to see a conflict in the Bible scripture.

Here is the conflicting verses

Gen.4.1-And Adam knew Eve his wife,and she conceived ,and bare Cain....

vs

Gen.5.3-And Adam....begat a son in his own likeness and after his image....Seth.

Here is the problem

No other children was born in between Cain and Seth because this statement would not be stated, would not have said this.

Cain was not in Adam's Likeness (appearance representation or resemblance)

Cain was not in Adam's image (a reproduction or imitation of form)

This would indicate Adam is not the father of Cain.

Some believe there is a connection between Serpent ( but they would call it ,the serpent) beguiling Eve and the outcome of it was Cain.

But there is no definitive explanation what the "tree" really is or means in the Bible.

Serpent did not eat from the tree only Eve then Adam ,if you are looking in that direction.

However the above conflicting statements do indicate to me Cain was a half breed who's father is not mentioned in the Bible.

Cain and his wife apparently had very good genetics ,his offspring built a city and worked iron and brass,herded cattle,developed musical instruments and played them..(It reads as if these things were done for the  first time)

And to answer your other question,no I have no particular denomination.

 

 

 

 

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On 4/5/2018 at 4:39 AM, Earl said:

No other children was born in between Cain and Seth because this statement would not be stated, would not have said this.

This argument from silence is one very weak link in your chain.

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@Earl I'm not sure I follow your logic on this at all. Are you suggesting that because Seth is described as being in the express image of his father and Cain is not described the same way that Cain must not be Adam's son? My older brother apparently has an uncanny resemblance to my dad, although I don't see it like non family members do. I on the other hand look like my maternal grandfather and often people are taken aback when they realize my brother and I are from the family.

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On 4/5/2018 at 7:39 AM, Earl said:

No other children was born in between Cain and Seth because this statement would not be stated, would not have said this.

What about Abel?

On 4/5/2018 at 7:39 AM, Earl said:

Some believe there is a connection between Serpent ( but they would call it ,the serpent) beguiling Eve and the outcome of it was Cain.

But there is no definitive explanation what the "tree" really is or means in the Bible.

Serpent did not eat from the tree only Eve then Adam ,if you are looking in that direction.

Yes, the theory I've heard is that the serpent "seduced" Eve (rather than "beguiled"). It sounds like you don't hold to that, but what you say about the tree has my attention. Do you have any thoughts about the nature of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

On 4/5/2018 at 7:39 AM, Earl said:

And to answer your other question,no I have no particular denomination.

My question wasn't intended to suss out your particular religion, but to determine if this was a pet theory of yours or a doctrine that has a substantial (even if minority) following. You know, like pre-tribulation vs. post-tribulation adventism.

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Vort,

"silence "?How so?

Spirit Dragon,

It is stated ,Adam ,after Abel's death,begat a son in his own likeness and his own image.Then why was Cain not?It was evidently a very big issue to find his attitude toward Cain in the Bible.

And I have already posted that Serpent was a man,and how he was a man slurred as a beast of the field.

Two descriptions must qualify.'likeness' and 'image.'You only gave one.

Is there enough information here to justify my statement?Sure

Mordobund,

Abel was killed so I did not include him.

About the tree.

So far all my posts have come from within the KJV Bible.And have used references and valid reasoning from the framework of that source.The Bible gives no description of what the tree is or means.So as long as I stay in the framework of the Bible ,the Bible can't tell us.Therefore any explanation will be a non mainstream Christian and a non Biblical one.And this is a Christian section of LDS forum.

Do you have valid reasoning for what the tree is or means?

 

 

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Spirit Dragon,

But most of all Cain was afraid someone will kill him.Why?The answer reflects back to his likeness and image.And knowing that Serpent has family who had hatred against Eve's family is enough for Cain to fear for his life.So what was Cain's tattoo (mark)for other than showing others he may be different but is not to be killed by the figure of speech  "friendly fire".

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16 hours ago, Earl said:

Spirit Dragon,

But most of all Cain was afraid someone will kill him.Why?The answer reflects back to his likeness and image.And knowing that Serpent has family who had hatred against Eve's family is enough for Cain to fear for his life.So what was Cain's tattoo (mark)for other than showing others he may be different but is not to be killed by the figure of speech  "friendly fire".

So there were at least 3 primeval men? Adam (Seth's father, through Eve), Serpent (enemy's father, through I-don't-know-who), and Cain's father (through Eve)?

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16 hours ago, Earl said:

Vort,

"silence "?How so?

Do you know what is meant by an "argument from silence"?

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mordorbund,

1.Seth -son of Adam and Eve.Seth was in Adam's image and likeness.

Abel-was killed.Understandably is the son of Eve.Nothing is mentioned about his image or likeness in that he was not Adam's son.

2.Cain -son of Eve.Cain was not in Adam's image or his likeness .Adam was not the father.The two verses at the top post conflict.

3.Serpent-a man  whose seed hated Eve's seed and her seed likewise .Seed in an old dictionary ,for a definition here,says it is descendants,offspring,family stock and or ancestors.I will rather broaden seed to say Serpent,his descendants and Serpent's people had hatred as I did before  but not Serpent  as enemy's father because it does not read that way.

 

Do you have valid reasoning for what the tree is or means?

 

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13 hours ago, Earl said:

Do you have valid reasoning for what the tree is or means?

For Latter-day Saints, the garden tale is largely symbolic and liturgical in nature with some concrete, historic elements. For instance, there is a real Adam and Eve, but the account of the rib and "dust of the earth" are pedagogical. Because of this variation between historical and allegorical (with overlap between the two to deal with), I don't know that you'll find 2 Mormons who hold the exact same interpretation of the early Genesis account. That said, I'll try for what I think is a majority opinion and let others correct me. Hopefully it doesn't derail this thread too much since this is in the Christian beliefs forum, so this thread should be more about what you believe.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil represents opposition, temptation, and entrance into our fallen mortal condition (either through birth, sin, or death). It stands in contrast to the tree of life which represents redemption, immortality, eternal life with God, and exaltation from our fallen mortal condition.

The best commentary on it can be found in The Book of Mormon.

Quote

And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon. And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter. Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and allthings are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

I have heard a theory (proposed by non-LDS) that eating the forbidden fruit represented sex, and the theory even goes further to have Cain as the spawn of Satan (which is why I asked questions to clarify your thoughts - it is clear they are distinctly different from this). Mormon apostles have strongly denounced the notion that sex was the cause of the Fall.

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mordorbund,

You stated Mormon apostles have strongly denounced the notion that sex was the cause of the fall."

From my inspection using the KJV  only, the incident with Adam and Eve I find there is not enough information about the tree to connect the tree with sex

What reasoning do Mormon apostles strongly denounce  the notion sex was the cause for Adam and Eve's mortal existence?

 

 

 

 

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On 4/9/2018 at 6:23 PM, Earl said:

Spirit Dragon,

It is stated ,Adam ,after Abel's death,begat a son in his own likeness and his own image.Then why was Cain not?It was evidently a very big issue to find his attitude toward Cain in the Bible.

And I have already posted that Serpent was a man,and how he was a man slurred as a beast of the field.

 

Sorry about the delayed response. I wasn't aware these posts were here until today.

Let me go straight to the biblical account:

Quote

genesis 4:

And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

I fail to see how this suggests anything other than Adam being the father of Cain. I suppose it could be stretched to suggest the Lord is the father because Eve stated she got a man from the Lord - but that's clearly not the meaning, not to mention that it is about as far away from Satan or the serpent being the father as possible.

It is interesting that you state that the serpent was a man, and that you attribute the name or title of serpent to this man. Where do you get that conclusion from. LDS teaching is that the serpent is Lucifer (Satan, the devil) so we agree that it's not actually a snake in the garden.

Further to the idea of Cain being Adam's son let's look at few more verses of genesis:

Quote

And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Using your same argument of silence, why would it not say that Eve bore Cain's half brother or that Cain talked with his half brother Abel? Not that a 1/2 brother couldn't simply be referred to as a brother, but because this particular method of evaluating scripture is problematic.

Quote

Two descriptions must qualify.'likeness' and 'image.'You only gave one.

Is there enough information here to justify my statement?Sure

Anyone knows that children don't always look exactly like their parents or act exactly like their parents. The fact that one of Adam's kids resembled him so strongly while others did not is simply a terribly weak basis to build on to suggest that because two brothers don't look the same one must be the milk man's baby.

On 4/9/2018 at 6:44 PM, Earl said:

Spirit Dragon,

But most of all Cain was afraid someone will kill him.Why?The answer reflects back to his likeness and image.And knowing that Serpent has family who had hatred against Eve's family is enough for Cain to fear for his life.So what was Cain's tattoo (mark)for other than showing others he may be different but is not to be killed by the figure of speech  "friendly fire".

Again let's look at the scriptures to discuss:

Quote

11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

It seems to me that Cain fears his own death not because he looks different than his dad, but because he wasn't able to keep secret that he murdered his brother. He fears retribution from others for his brother's death. His likeness and image were known before he killed his brother, so why wouldn't he have needed to run away or be marked long before he ever slayed Abel?

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1 hour ago, Earl said:

mordorbund,

You stated Mormon apostles have strongly denounced the notion that sex was the cause of the fall."

From my inspection using the KJV  only, the incident with Adam and Eve I find there is not enough information about the tree to connect the tree with sex

What reasoning do Mormon apostles strongly denounce  the notion sex was the cause for Adam and Eve's mortal existence?

“Here let me say that therein consisted the fall—the eating of things unfit, the taking into the body of the things that made of that body a thing of earth: and I take this occasion to raise my voice against the false interpretation of scripture, which has been adopted by certain people, and is current in their minds, and is referred to in a hushed and half-secret way, that the fall of man consisted in some offense against the laws of chastity and virtue. Such a doctrine is an abomination. What right have we to turn the scriptures from their proper sense and meaning? What right have we to declare that God meant not what He said? The fall was a natural process, resulting through the incorporation into the bodies of our first parents of the things that came from food unfit, through the violation of the command of God regarding what they should eat. Don’t go around whispering that the fall consisted in the mother of the race losing her chastity and her virtue. It is not true; the human race is not born of fornication. These bodies that are given unto us are given in the way that God has provided. Let it not be said that the patriarch of the race, who stood with the gods before he came here upon the earth, and his equally royal consort, were guilty of any such foul offense. The adoption of that belief has led many to excuse departures from the path of chastity and the path of virtue, by saying that it is the sin of the race, that it is as old as Adam. It was not introduced by Adam. It was not committed by Eve. It was the introduction of the devil and came in order that he might sow the seeds of early death in the bodies of men and women, that the race should degenerate as it has degenerated whenever the laws of virtue and of chastity have been transgressed.

“Our first parents were pure and noble, and when we pass behind the veil we shall perhaps learn something of their high estate, more than we know now. But be it known that they were pure; they were noble. It is true that they disobeyed the law of God, in eating things they were told not to eat; but who amongst you can rise up and condemn?”—From an address by the author at the Eighty-fourth Semiannual Conference of the Church, Oct. 6, 1913; Conference Report, pp. 118, 119. (as quoted here)

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SpiritDragon,

"likeness and image"

If the scripture was written yesterday or in this century I would agree with your reasoning .However it was not.

I had to consider what the storyteller meant in the day it was written,centuries ago.And this is how I evaluated this scripture and made this conclusion.

The basis for this is simply doing a definition search of a word like 'seed', comparing a very old dictionary and a new dictionary.Seed is defined ,among other things,in an old dictionary as descendants,ancestors,offspring and family stock but it is not always found in a new dictionary.The definition is passing away.

On your second part,

About the time Cain left home there is no mention of "others" in his family,just Adam and Eve.

There  was no one to keep a secret from unless you are saying Adam and Eve  did not know and Cain made a run for it before they found out .But how would they find out if Cain left before telling them  unless "others" told them.Cain left home before Seth was  born, unless you expand on Eve's seed  as well as Serpent's seed who had hatred for Eve's seed as I do.

For Cain's offense to be written someone mortal was a witness or Adam and Eve were told so by Cain.There is no mention that God told Eve or Adam Cain killed his brother.

So who are the others you make reference to?

 

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1 hour ago, Earl said:

"likeness and image"

 

 

You seem hung up on this phrase.  If I understand what you're saying, you say Seth is the son of Adam because of the use of this phrase to describe Seth.  You say Cain is not the son of Adam because this phrase is not used to describe him.  Yet Abel doesn't get this phrase - whose son is he?  How about everybody else's sons in the Bible?  Isaac is not described as Abraham's image and likeness nor are all of Jacob's sons...

In any case, the phrase image and likeness is used in the Bible to aver a similar nature - Adam being made in the image and likeness of God avers that Adam has a godly nature and not a physical offspring of God (as God only has one begotten in the flesh).  Seth being in the image and likeness of Adam avers that he is a good man.

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11 hours ago, Earl said:

SpiritDragon,

"likeness and image"

If the scripture was written yesterday or in this century I would agree with your reasoning .However it was not.

I had to consider what the storyteller meant in the day it was written,centuries ago.And this is how I evaluated this scripture and made this conclusion.

The basis for this is simply doing a definition search of a word like 'seed', comparing a very old dictionary and a new dictionary.Seed is defined ,among other things,in an old dictionary as descendants,ancestors,offspring and family stock but it is not always found in a new dictionary.The definition is passing away.

On your second part,

About the time Cain left home there is no mention of "others" in his family,just Adam and Eve.

There  was no one to keep a secret from unless you are saying Adam and Eve  did not know and Cain made a run for it before they found out .But how would they find out if Cain left before telling them  unless "others" told them.Cain left home before Seth was  born, unless you expand on Eve's seed  as well as Serpent's seed who had hatred for Eve's seed as I do.

For Cain's offense to be written someone mortal was a witness or Adam and Eve were told so by Cain.There is no mention that God told Eve or Adam Cain killed his brother.

So who are the others you make reference to?

 

What ancient dictionary have you found to define likeness and image and what is the definition you have found? 

Just because the bible doesn't name every child of Adam and eve in Genesis doesn't mean they don't exist. It is very likely that The world was far more populous than just Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel just prior to Abel's murder. It is much more likely that several children and quite possibly grand-children were already around at the time Cain killed Abel. After being banished, Cain still managed to find himself a wife, where did she come from? She was likely his sister and probably no more far removed than his niece. Since his parents didn't have siblings he wouldn't have had any cousins.

Even if Adam, Eve and Cain were the only ones alive after Abel's death, as you seem to be saying, Cain still feared for his life after killing his brother, so perhaps he thought Adam or Eve would kill him? Who are you suggesting he was afraid of?

The bible also doesn't say that Cain told Adam and/or Eve or that the murder was witnessed by whomever. How is it you get to decide because the bible doesn't say God told Adam that this can't be, but when the bible is also silent on a witness or Cain confessing that these become sound conclusions?

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11 hours ago, Earl said:

About the time Cain left home there is no mention of "others" in his family,just Adam and Eve.

Again, do you know what an "argument from silence" is? Hint: It's what you're doing.

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mordorbund,

From your quote Lehi said,

"And because he had fallen from heaven".

"he (devil) sought also the misery of all mankind".

There is from the KJV something of a record of what transpired from the rebellion on Earth at 2 Pe.ch2 and Jude.

From what these writers state of the rebellion inflicting misery was not one of the reasons although many were miserably affected by the rebellion.

The rebellion was about false teachers and false prophets who were called beasts that went about denying God and his son.If we deny God and his status we automatically deny Jesus as his son.

It would be impossible to deny God from anything so the definition here would be these people deny God that is there is no God and if no God Jesus is no son of God.This is atheism.

The false teachers,prophets were teaching atheism .

2Pe.2.19-"while they promise them liberty".These beasts showed they were exercising liberty with no remorse, repercussions from God.

And Lehi said "Adam fell that men might be".

From the KJV

Adam and Eve were told to multiply while in their immortal state.They continued this in their mortal state.

Eating from the tree would be a transgression ,stumble ,but it did not stop their progress.

If it stopped their progress it would be a fall.

The Conference of the church in comparison to the KJV.

states it was the introduction of the devil that caused death in men and women.If they are pointing to Serpent,he was a man.He did not fall from heaven.

Thanks for showing this .I am beginning to know something of what LDS teaches.

 

 

 

 

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SpiritDragon,

Apologize for the delay,

I have not forgotten to answer but I will .But first a question to you,

Mordorbund posted a statement from the conference of the church in 1913.

If this was all that was said on this matter at that time,

 

What did the LDS members  find where they might want  to "whisper" about Eve?

Or, what was causing them to whisper,for the speaker there to say the human race was not born of fornication?

 

 

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SpiritDragon,

Ill go ahead and continue.

One of the reasons  that I can see there was whispering is the verse  1 Jo.3.12 (KJV) Cain was of the wicked one.

I see this verse carries a spiritual sense of it's meaning,Cain did a wicked thing,kill.Others who read it may see it as literal also which gives way to thinking that Cain is the son of Satan who some believe was the Serpent in the garden who had relations with Eve and Cain was his offspring.But ,Serpent was a beast of the field.

In 1978 the NIV was published and this verse was changed to Cain 'belonged to the evil one'.

Sometimes the NIV is helpful in clarifying things ,such as ,instead of the KJV saying giants the NIV says Nephilim .

Belong is defined as ,property of or a member of.

Knowing that Satan is said to be a fallen angel and angels can neither marry or are given in marriage .Satan can not reproduce and is out of the picture but not Serpent.

Serpent can reproduce, "his seed".So Cain belonged to Serpent.

Eating of the tree caused hatred between the two seeds.

Cain said (KJV)everyone that findeth me and the Lord said whosoever slayeth Cain.Plural meanings.

From this I can not say Cain was the son of Serpent but can say there is seed of Serpent and two people were Serpent's parents.

 

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On 4/14/2018 at 8:45 AM, Earl said:

SpiritDragon,

Apologize for the delay,

I have not forgotten to answer but I will .But first a question to you,

Mordorbund posted a statement from the conference of the church in 1913.

If this was all that was said on this matter at that time,

 

What did the LDS members  find where they might want  to "whisper" about Eve?

Or, what was causing them to whisper,for the speaker there to say the human race was not born of fornication?

 

 

People of all ages have enjoyed coming up with pet theories to discuss about every topic. Whispering about Eve, to me, is simply referring to unfounded theories being discussed in private settings. This discussion right here could be considered whispering about Eve and accusing her of unchastity with someone other than her husband who you are referring to as Serpent. 

However, on a further note, LDS belief generally holds that Adam and Eve could not procreate in the Garden of Eden. Some have speculated that the act of creating a child symbolized a loss of innocence and is what the forbidden fruit represents. In this context, however, Adam and Eve were married and physical intimacy would not have been a sin and would not have caused them to need to be cast out of the Garden of Eden. The teaching @mordorbund referenced appears to simply be dispelling the myth that the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is in any way related to chastity.

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SpiritDragon,

I find that the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the story surrounding it's theory is not persuasive .

Fig leaves and animal skins do not cover up a wrong from eating fruit from a tree.

If the fig leaves and animal skins were not part of the incidents the story might be believed literally.

It is unbelievable to think Adam and Eve did not know they wore no clothes.

These are two adults not two year olds.

Up to this point I have remained 'in bounds' of the Bible but now because of it's limitations Ill transition to The Urantia Book and there in is answers to these discussions.

I found in Paper 75 and 76

Serpent's full name is Serapatatia.

Eve mated with a Nodite, Cano,  in the garden,Cain was born enroute to the second garden "east of Eden".

Adam mated with a Nodite,Laotta,in the garden,Sansa was born enroute to the second garden "east of Eden".

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is not a tree.

It is a meaning-do not commingle good with evil.

Adam and Eve was warned to not mate with the native Nodites.

Good intentions do not change evil into good.

Doing wrong for a good reason does not make a right.It is still wrong.

Adamson-first son born in the garden.

Eveson-second son born in the garden.

Cain married Ramona a distant cousin who was Nodite. She was from the land of Nod.

Abel- first child to be born in the second garden.

Seth- eldest surviving son of Adam born in the second garden.Born 129 years after Adam  began in the garden.Bible says 130 years.

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Earl said:

Up to this point I have remained 'in bounds' of the Bible but now because of it's limitations Ill transition to The Urantia Book

It's official.

nascar-2010.jpg

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