How did you know it was the right time to have your first child?


Lee
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2 hours ago, Lee said:

Love is a feeling! I don't have conditions to love my wife I love her that is that. However, we both always maintain the right to be happy. We don't have a crap marriage. Why would you think that? 

This is the problem right here.  You think that happiness is achieved by "Receiving it".  This is what the scriptures say as being "acted upon".  No.  If the Receiving is what makes you happy then that's why I say your marriage is crap (or at least your part of it is).  Happiness is achieved by Service - "to act on".  More scripture reference - don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.  That means, your happiness should stem from the opportunity/ability/capacity/desire for charity.  It SHOULD NOT care about what you get out of it.  Because, if you only love your wife because you want something from her back, then that is selfish.  I learned this lesson the hard way while taking care of my dad while he waged battle with cancer.

That scenario, for example - my dad battling cancer.  There's no way my dad was capable of making my mother happy while he had his ginormous problems.  In your book, my mom should leave him.  No, in my parents' book - and in my husband and I's book - we take care of our spouse regardless of what we receive in return.  My spouse's inability to love me does not come from God - therefore, because I love him, I will do everything in my power to bring him back to God so he can be happy.  Being able to do that for my husband is my ultimate desire that brings me happiness.

That's why I agreed with Vort that your approach to marriage has some spiritual deficiency.  Divorce is a plague.  It is ruining families and children's lives.  Marriage is not like shoes - you throw it out if you don't like it anymore and go buy another set of shoes that you're gonna end up throwing out too because you have not learned what it means to love.

Edited by anatess2
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5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is the problem right here.  You think that happiness is achieved by "Receiving it".  This is what the scriptures say as being "acted upon".  No.  If the Receiving is what makes you happy then that's why I say your marriage is crap (or at least your part of it is).  Happiness is achieved by Service - "to act on".  More scripture reference - don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.  That means, your happiness should stem from the opportunity/ability/capacity/desire for charity.  It SHOULD NOT care about what you get out of it.  Because, if you only love your wife because you want something from her back, then that is selfish.  I learned this lesson the hard way while taking care of my dad while he waged battle with cancer.

I get your point, maybe I will review the meaning of happiness. I have always been blessed with it and it is the main feeling I always want to feel. That is why I do everything I can to make my wife happy because it makes me happy. 

 

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

That scenario, for example - my dad battling cancer.  There's no way my dad was capable of making my mother happy while he had his ginormous problems.  In your book, my mom should leave him.  No, in my parents' book - and in my husband and I's book - we take care of our spouse regardless of what we receive in return.  My spouse's inability to love me does not come from God - therefore, because I love him, I will do everything in my power to bring him back to God so he can be happy.  Being able to do that for my husband is my ultimate desire that brings me happiness.

I understand I would never leave my wife if she is unwell, that would be wrong. Of course I would still love her if she became unwell. 

 

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

That's why I agreed with Vort that your approach to marriage has some spiritual deficiency.  Divorce is a plague.  It is ruining families and children's lives.  Marriage is not like shoes - you throw it out if you don't like it anymore and go buy another set of shoes that you're gonna end up throwing out too because you have not learned what it means to love.

I think you misunderstood me because I never want to divorce my wife. Her happiness is more important to me than my own, her being happy makes me happy. That is why if she didn't want to be with me anymore then even though it would hurt me I would go through with the divorce. I do know what it means to love. 

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17 minutes ago, Lee said:

I get your point, maybe I will review the meaning of happiness. I have always been blessed with it and it is the main feeling I always want to feel. That is why I do everything I can to make my wife happy because it makes me happy. 

 

I understand I would never leave my wife if she is unwell, that would be wrong. Of course I would still love her if she became unwell. 

 

I think you misunderstood me because I never want to divorce my wife. Her happiness is more important to me than my own, her being happy makes me happy. That is why if she didn't want to be with me anymore then even though it would hurt me I would go through with the divorce. I do know what it means to love. 

The impression we got from your previous posts is that if your wife stops making you happy then you're going to leave her.  Let's put this in different scenarios - you already said you're not gonna leave her if she's sick.  Okay.  What if you didn't know she was sick?  For example - this happens a lot with post-partum depression - she delivers the baby and she starts yelling at you and kicking you out of the house?  Are you going to leave?  Lots of women go through post-partum depression and they don't realize it until waaaay later.  Some extreme cases end up with the wife drowning their baby in the bathtub.  Are you going to leave?  How about when she gets older and her hormone and metabolism shifts and she goes through a deep depression dive and stops taking care of herself, gets 300 lbs overweight, starts being lazy and sleeping all day and watches TV all night eating bonbons and ignoring you.  Are you going to leave?  How about when she falls prey to online gambling, gets addicted and loses control of herself and even loses the house as she spent the mortgage money.  Are you going to leave?  How about she yells and nags at you because she thinks you're not helping around the house enough or she wants you to quit watching TV or playing video games (or whatever is your favorite hobby)?  Are you going to leave?

And as a kicker - if you wake up tomorrow to find out your wife is a serial killer... what will you do?

 

So yeah... my answer to the scenario of my husband not wanting to be with me anymore - I'm fighting for my marriage.  Marriage is ordained of God and it is the eternal source of joy.  My husband's happiness is with Christ.  Doing something that is not of Christ is not going to make him happy even if he's convinced it will.  I'm fighting for him and this marriage with everything I got in my body.

Edited by anatess2
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46 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

What if you didn't know she was sick?  For example - this happens a lot with post-partum depression - she delivers the baby and she starts yelling at you and kicking you out of the house?  Are you going to leave?  Lots of women go through post-partum depression and they don't realize it until waaaay later.  Some extreme cases end up with the wife drowning their baby in the bathtub.  Are you going to leave? 

No I wouldn't leave her unless I thought that me or my child was at risk then I would leave. I would help her to try and return to happiness but I wouldn't be willing to tolerate it for my entire life. Even if I divorced her I would still care for her, help her, and provide for her. Those promises I made to her I would keep even if we were no longer married. 

 

50 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

How about when she gets older and her hormone and metabolism shifts and she goes through a deep depression dive and stops taking care of herself, gets 300 lbs overweight, starts being lazy and sleeping all day and watches TV all night eating bonbons and ignoring you.  Are you going to leave? 

I wouldn't leave her immediately but it is no way for me to live. If it continued for more than a year I would have to leave her for my own sanity. Again I would still support her in every way. 

 

52 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

How about when she falls prey to online gambling, gets addicted and loses control of herself and even loses the house as she spent the mortgage money.  Are you going to leave?  How about she yells and nags at you because she thinks you're not helping around the house enough or she wants you to quit watching TV or playing video games (or whatever is your favorite hobby)?  Are you going to leave?

I help my wife with chores, I probably do more than her. If I stopped helping her and spent all my time playing games then I am not worthy of her love and it would be no surprise if she left me. I don't care if she yells or nags me, that is her prerogative to express her self how she wants. 

 

If she gambled all of our money then that is unacceptable, I don't know what I would do. 

56 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And as a kicker - if you wake up tomorrow to find out your wife is a serial killer... what will you do?

 

Never going to happen. 

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55 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Maybe you should clarify these comments too.

 

56 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

if we are bored of each other

if I am no longer attracted to her

if I fall in love with another woman and not being with her makes me unhappy

I just meant they would be valid reasons for us to divorce. 

 

If we become bored of each other and we are both trying our best but we just can't enjoy each others company there is no point being husband and wife. 

If I am no longer attracted to her, I wasn't referring to appearance I mean if she did something unforgivable and I resented her for it and I was unable to forgive her I would have to leave. 

If I were to fall in love with another woman, I would first have to fall out of love with my wife. If you are no longer in love I don't think happiness can be achieved. It is the same for my wife if we aren't in love and she has a chance of happiness with someone out I don't want to force her to stay with me just because we made vows once. 

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2 hours ago, Lee said:

I just meant they would be valid [selfish] reasons for us to divorce. 

Fixed it.

2 hours ago, Lee said:

If we become bored of each other and we are both trying our best but we just can't enjoy each others company there is no point being husband and wife. 

Yes, I believe that is what Christ meant when he said, "except it be for fornication". If you're bored it's perfectly justifiable to cast off your covenants. It's not like covenants have any meaning beyond our enjoyment, after all.

<_<

2 hours ago, Lee said:

If I am no longer attracted to her, I wasn't referring to appearance I mean if she did something unforgivable and I resented her for it and I was unable to forgive her I would have to leave. 

"I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."

Clearly the Lord meant "except our wives".

<_<

2 hours ago, Lee said:

If I were to fall in love with another woman, I would first have to fall out of love with my wife. If you are no longer in love I don't think happiness can be achieved. It is the same for my wife if we aren't in love and she has a chance of happiness with someone out I don't want to force her to stay with me just because we made vows once.

Do you know what a vow is?

More importantly, do you even understand covenants and their importance?

If you're wife stops entertaining you and you're bored then you're free to fall in love with another woman and then divorce her? Despicable.

Do you even understand commitment and loyalty? Not to mention vows and covenants? These are not conditional upon your personal enjoyment.

Christ set the example for us of what love means when He took upon Himself our sins and died upon the cross for us. Love is about sacrifice, loyalty, commitment, and freely giving ourselves entirely to another.

This is the sad state of the world. Even "LDS" people holding such shallow and apathetic views of the meaning of marriage covenants.

You have no understanding of what brings joy. You think it's about being attracted, not being bored, and "falling" in love, which has already been explained as nonsense. You choose love. You act in selflessness to share love. You give love. It's not some happenstance thing that we accidentally have or not.

Righteousness is centered in selfless giving, loyalty, long-suffering, patience, enduring to the end, and keeping our covenants. Wickedness is centered in betrayal, yielding to the carnal, having no patience, failing to endure to the end, and failing to keep our covenants.

You're basically saying that you believe you could find happiness by abandoning loyalty and covenants.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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Getting to know Lee.

On 4/5/2018 at 3:40 PM, Lee said:

Practically, speaking we are more than ready to have a child but I know it is a huge responsibility so I want confirmation from the Holy Spirit that it is a good thing. My wife she is more of the opinion that it can't be against god's will for us to have a baby so we should just have one. Which opinion do you think is right ? How did you know when was a good time to have your first child ?

A reasonable-sounding question.

On 4/5/2018 at 3:48 PM, Lee said:

We can afford a baby and we are educated.

A sliver of insight into Lee, his relationships, and his priorities.

On 4/5/2018 at 3:58 PM, Lee said:

Just some kind of sign or feeling because I don't want to enter in to something so serious without confirmation. It is similar to when I wanted a confirmation it was right to marry my wife. 

 

red-flag.png

Red flag raised. Fulfilling the measure of one's creation while keeping the first commandment given to mortal men requires special revelation?

On 4/5/2018 at 4:08 PM, Lee said:

Is it not the most worrying thing being  a parent? I have a feeling I would just constantly be worried for my child's safety and happiness.

More insight into Lee's attitudes. Children are indeed a constant worry; he got that much right.

On 4/6/2018 at 2:33 PM, Lee said:

Also, my wife had a lot of goals and ambitions she would find too hard to achieve with a child. We weren't ready when we started having sex and I don't think that's a bad thing.

Nothing wrong with being mature enough to enter into a marital/sexual relationship, but not mature enough to be parents? Something is most definitely wrong here.

What ever happened to the idea of "growing into the shoes"?

On 4/7/2018 at 9:51 AM, Lee said:

I care for my wife but that is very different to having a child, if necessary marriage is reversible.

red-flag-std_1.jpg

DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!

On 4/7/2018 at 1:57 PM, Lee said:

Also, what is with marriage and having children being so intertwined?

And here, I think Lee totally jumped the shark.

That was just Page One.

Friends, there are only two possibilities that I see:

  1. Lee is trolling us.
  2. Lee is sincere. This means that, at this point in his life, he is sadly lacking in both emotional and spiritual maturity. Preaching to him will do no good, because he is a great deal smarter than anyone else here and already knows all the answers. Don't believe me? Just ask him. (Which makes one wonder why he asked the initial question...but perhaps such inquiries aren't appropriate.)

Neither possibility is particularly charitable, but I honestly can't think of a third choice. I'm thinking #2 is the lesser of the two evils: sincere but prideful and hopelessly immature. In either case, responding is futile.

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31 minutes ago, Vort said:

Lee is sincere.

Correct I am a sincere. 

 

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

This means that, at this point in his life, he is sadly lacking in both emotional and spiritual maturity.

Very judgemental and incorrect. 

 

32 minutes ago, Vort said:

Preaching to him will do no good, because he is a great deal smarter than anyone else here and already knows all the answers.

Actually, I received helpful answers from a few people. Shout out to @anatess2 who made me realise I should reevaluate my idea of happiness, and gave me some questions to consider about my marriage. 

 

33 minutes ago, Vort said:

(Which makes one wonder why he asked the initial question...but perhaps such inquiries aren't appropriate.)

Was wanting to know if anyone received a revelation that they should have kids... 

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In reply to the original question...

We got married and children just seemed to follow soon after.  It's one of those things.  No shouting voice from heaven to me about it.  No angelic visions or the Lord coming down to visit me on this.

Quote

if I fall in love with another woman and not being with her makes me unhappy

I'm not going to point out much else in this thread, I think my contention on some subjects would drive away the spirit rather then bring it in...but I WILL say this.

If the above occurs...you have already been involved with emotional adultery at the least, and more than likely adultery overall.  At which point, yes, probably divorce is in the picture, but I'd probably say that's due to sinning against the Laws of the Lord more than anything else.  This should NOT be something to be considered or even an option, in my opinion.

If you consider this an option, the adversary will KNOW this eventually, and may make it a possibility in the future.  He knows our weaknesses and uses them against us.  If you think it, more than likely as actions follow thought, it WILL occur.  Maybe not yesterday, maybe not today, but give it a decade or two and when you think you are most miserable and bored of your marriage...it will happen and you will go as happy as a beaver into the beaver trap into the snare set for you by the adversary.  I've seen it happen with great tragedy over and over and over again.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

In reply to the original question...

We got married and children just seemed to follow soon after.  It's one of those things.  No shouting voice from heaven to me about it.  No angelic visions or the Lord coming down to visit me on this.

I'm not going to point out much else in this thread, I think my contention on some subjects would drive away the spirit rather then bring it in...but I WILL say this.

If the above occurs...you have already been involved with emotional adultery at the least, and more than likely adultery overall.  At which point, yes, probably divorce is in the picture, but I'd probably say that's due to sinning against the Laws of the Lord more than anything else.  This should NOT be something to be considered or even an option, in my opinion.

If you consider this an option, the adversary will KNOW this eventually, and may make it a possibility in the future.  He knows our weaknesses and uses them against us.  If you think it, more than likely as actions follow thought, it WILL occur.  Maybe not yesterday, maybe not today, but give it a decade or two and when you think you are most miserable and bored of your marriage...it will happen and you will go as happy as a beaver into the beaver trap into the snare set for you by the adversary.  I've seen it happen with great tragedy over and over and over again.

I'd had the same thought.

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11 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

We got married and children just seemed to follow soon after.  It's one of those things.  No shouting voice from heaven to me about it.  No angelic visions or the Lord coming down to visit me on this.

Alright. Do you think that God would let you have a baby, if you shouldn't have one? 

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

1) I don't like your sarcasm.

2) I didn't mean it like that. I meant if you pray and ask god to bless you with a child and your wife doesn't conceive and it isn't for a medical reason. Would you then assume that it isn't the right time or would you not bother reading in to it? 

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13 minutes ago, Lee said:

 

1) I don't like your sarcasm.

2) I didn't mean it like that. I meant if you pray and ask god to bless you with a child and your wife doesn't conceive and it isn't for a medical reason. Would you then assume that it isn't the right time or would you not bother reading in to it? 

1)He can seem pretty harsh, but I think he means well... most of the time.

2)It would depend on how long and how often a couple were trying. I wouldn't read anything into not having a pregnancy within a 3-6 month window of trying. If it didn't happen for a year I'd consider rechecking those health reasons. After all, God works through natural laws - so it would seem to me that the most likely reason not to be having a kid would still be due to some form of limitation in one partner's ability to procreate (assuming the reason isn't intentional contraception which should sort of go without saying here).

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30 minutes ago, Lee said:

...I meant if you pray and ask god to bless you with a child and your wife doesn't conceive and it isn't for a medical reason. Would you then assume that it isn't the right time or would you not bother reading in to it? 

Having a baby is a very natural thing for a couple to want and have. I have a very hard time thinking that God would not want a couple to have a baby. If you really want a baby and there are infertility issues, then you do everything in your power to try and have that baby. If you are not sure about having a baby due to infertility, then you should rethink whether you actually want a baby.

M.

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11 hours ago, Lee said:

Alright. Do you think that God would let you have a baby, if you shouldn't have one? 

That's an interesting question.  I'm not sure if I understand it, but it's an interesting one.

I think that in heaven many are sent to this earth to parents.  Many go into situations that are not ideal, and in some instances very bad.  Does that mean that the baby shouldn't have gone there?

Each of us has a purpose in this life, even babies and children.  We may not understand all the purposes that individuals have in this life, but each one of us has one.  Sometimes individuals are sent to help teach others or guide them in ways that would not be possible if they had not been born.

Other times, for some, it is hard to have children.  Why is this?  We may not really know, but perhaps sometimes it is to help us learn life lessons or give us trials to help us grow.  We wanted more children than what we had (and some would consider that we had a LOT of children already), but we suddenly couldn't have anymore.  Luckily, we started early enough to have quite a number that we love dearly.  No matter what we tried we couldn't have anymore after the 7th child.  Was that because we shouldn't have one?  Or maybe it was for many other reasons.  Perhaps we needed to learn and experience this, or maybe it was to help us financially with those children we already had, or all of the above and MORE reasons in addition to that.

The key is to be thankful for what one has and what one has been blessed with, and realize that the Lord knows us and to accept his will in all things, even when it is hard.

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12 hours ago, Lee said:

 

1) I don't like your sarcasm.

A) Sarcasm? I posted a link that spoke about children being born to parents who use cocaine in reply to a question whether God would let someone have a baby who shouldn't.

Sarcasm would be something like:

Of course God would never send a baby to someone who shouldn't. God would never send a baby to a crack user or the like. <_<

12 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

1)He can seem pretty harsh, but I think he means well... most of the time.

Harsh? Seriously? I posted a link to a wikipedia article to make the point that God sends children to people who shouldn't have them.

How is that harsh?

12 hours ago, Lee said:

2) I didn't mean it like that. I meant if you pray and ask god to bless you with a child and your wife doesn't conceive and it isn't for a medical reason. Would you then assume that it isn't the right time or would you not bother reading in to it? 

Okay. Thank you for the clarification.

I might assume such a thing in that case.

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13 hours ago, Lee said:

 

1) I don't like your sarcasm.

Ah....maybe you meant the previous post. Yes...that was laced with sarcasm.

In reply to your not liking that... Well, I don't particularly like your cavalier attitude about divorce.

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Harsh? Seriously? I posted a link to a wikipedia article to make the point that God sends children to people who shouldn't have them.

How is that harsh?

It was a general reference to how you are often received rather than confined to this one instance. I actually really appreciate your point of view, which even aligns with my own more often than not (sometimes to the point of making me feel obsolete in here because you've got my perspective covered and post more prolifically), but I find your delivery method can be offensive. I gather you don't intend it to be. Perhaps, you are trying more for humour which gets lost in translation. In this case, It's not so much the posting your point of view with supporting material linked as it is simply leaving it as "um...." which seems like you're saying, "well duh... what idiot hasn't thought about this possibility." That's how it's harsh.

Or, interestingly enough, although you clearly see the following as different.

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

A) Sarcasm? I posted a link that spoke about children being born to parents who use cocaine in reply to a question whether God would let someone have a baby who shouldn't.

Sarcasm would be something like:

Of course God would never send a baby to someone who shouldn't. God would never send a baby to a crack user or the like. <_<

To others, this is exactly what you said, just now using more vocabulary than um... which apparently can be interpreted very differently among a diverse group. Maybe, your um... followed by the link was intending to convey a message such as:

Well God allows us to exercise our agency and doesn't always intervene to prevent us from making mistakes, even when those choices will affect innocent children. Have you considered why God let's addicts have babies?

 

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19 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I gather you don't intend it to be.

Sometimes. Which I think you implied.

Sometimes I know very well my approach will be taken as offensive. You just have to own it in some cases.

I don't believe that someone else's offense dictates the right or wrong of my actions.

21 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

Perhaps, you are trying more for humour which gets lost in translation.

Sometimes.

Sarcasm is a good case in point. It is meant to be humorous. That doesn't mean it isn't offensive to the one on the receiving end.

When someone says, "I'd leave my wife if I got bored with her" and I reply, "Yeah...that's what Christ taught. <_<" I'm under no delusions that the one who said they'd leave their wife if they got bored with her isn't going to find my sarcasm offensive.

23 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

It's not so much the posting your point of view with supporting material linked as it is simply leaving it as "um...." which seems like you're saying, "well duh... what idiot hasn't thought about this possibility." That's how it's harsh.

Fair enough.

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On 4/10/2018 at 5:29 PM, Lee said:

If I were to fall in love with another woman, I would first have to fall out of love with my wife. If you are no longer in love I don't think happiness can be achieved. It is the same for my wife if we aren't in love and she has a chance of happiness with someone out I don't want to force her to stay with me just because we made vows once. 

Fall in love.  I scanned back and I don't think you responded to my request for you to define Love.  I am truly interested on what you mean by Love.  What do you mean by Fall in Love?  What is that to you?

 

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16 hours ago, Lee said:

2) I didn't mean it like that. I meant if you pray and ask god to bless you with a child and your wife doesn't conceive and it isn't for a medical reason. Would you then assume that it isn't the right time or would you not bother reading in to it? 

I'll tell you my life story - 

When my husband and I got married I was devout Catholic, he was inactive LDS.  I thought he'd become Catholic as he was attending church with me.  We didn't have children for 4 years and I thought something was wrong with either of us.  I was starting to worry.  Then I got baptized in the summer, I got pregnant in the winter, I became eligible to be sealed to my husband in the temple one year after baptism, and 2 weeks later my son was born in covenant.  This is my testimony - I believe God saw fit for my son to arrive at such time that he can be born in covenant.

But that's just me.

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