When Does Homeschooling Fail?


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When my wife and I were engaged we discovered a matter that we seemed strongly at odds on.  Homeschooling.  And the disagreement continued for a couple years after we were married.  This stemmed from the differences in our experiences in public school.  

She had been raised in a pioneering homeschooling family.  And she simply was not well educated.  She's got about the worst spelling skills I've ever seen.  She has a phobia of math to the point where she has difficulty with multiplication tables.  And even though she is thoroughly well read, she has a very poor vocabulary.

I was educated in a very advanced and very well run public school environment.  I had mentioned that my high school had such a good curriculum that when the push to qualify for IB came around, the school had no changes to make.  They already had satisfactory curricula in every topic.  Most teachers were average.  Some were exceedingly wanting.  But through it all, there were teachers who were exceptional.  Many of those exceptional teachers surpassed my college professors in their knowledge and ability to pass on their knowledge to their students.

When comparing my education to my wife's there was no comparison.  I was simply much better educated than my wife.  When the kids have a really tough academic question that isn't clarified in their texts, they often don't even ask their mom.  They wait to ask me when I get home. I have often wondered why they don't "ask the internet".

Now as I look at my kids I see them in various levels of academic ability and achievement.  Some of them exceed my education in some areas.  But overall, they fall short in so many ways.  I didn't really think my experience was that exceptional.  So, why don't at least SOME of my kids learn as I learned?  Why don't they know what I knew at their age?  And only one child has my math ability  But he doesn't want to be an engineer.  In fact, he doesn't even want to be any kind of STEM professional. 

The truth is that as a father, I'm disappointed in their academic achievements.  I've even expressed my desire to put a couple of them in public school because they have a personality type that seems more suited to regimented studies than the free-form environment that my wife uses.  When I've done so, my wife reminds me what homeschooling is about.

We don't homeschool because we will have a better academic environment.  We don't homeschool because our kids are going to be better educated or smarter than other kids.  We do it to protect our children from indoctrination and the effects of an evil world that is making its way through the public school system like a virus.  So, I had to take a hard look at this multiple times.

I've always valued education.  Even when I went through my rebellious teenage phase (which lasted about 20 years) I always knew how important education was.  So, naturally, I excelled.  I had been disappointed when they didn't match up to my academic achievements.  Then I had to see how they measured up.

1) They are far ahead in a few areas and pretty far behind in other areas -- compared to public schooled children.  Admittedly, they are overall, somewhat behind.
2) They have a knowledge of the gospel that exceeds any other children of their age in any wards we've been in.
3) They are more well read than any other kids I've come across.  As a result they spend their time talking about and imitating characters in books rather than TV and movies.  And since they are good books with good characters, I'm good with that.
4) They don't spend all their time talking about the opposite sex.  Instead, they talk about ideas and projects.
5) They appear to be awkward kids sometimes.  But too many public schooled children seem downright evil sometimes.
6) They have self-confidence and an understanding of who they are.  They're just plain happy.
7) We have a level of love, mutual respect, and comradery in our home that I haven't seen in any public schooled family.
8) And they have a testimony of the Savior, the Book of Mormon, and the teachings of the Church.

I'd been looking at academics and considered our experiment a failure.  But when I see the benefits beyond academics I realize it is worth the price.  

So, when does homeschooling fail?  I believe that one woman in one of our homeschool groups was a perfect example.  She had completely missed the point as I had.  She had focused so much on academics (which she was not qualified to teach, quite honestly) that she completely neglected the spiritual, emotional, and nurturing aspects of homeschooling.  As a result, she had neither academically advanced children, nor children with a testimony of the gospel.

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Thank you for your insights!

My wife and I are strongly considering homeschooling because we believe we can do it better than the public school system, and end up with more well educated children.  In terms of public schools, yes they try to indoctrinate, but I believe that for the most part we can teach them correct principles at home, and have already done so on a number of occasions.  We are also absolutely happy to reap the other benefits you have discussed, however, our public school system is pretty terrible.  Mostly, I attribute it to the fact that we live in an inner city.  Luckily for us, my wife was actually a public school teacher and is very capable in that role.

We have already tested this by homeschooling the children during the summer time to catch them up where the public school system has failed them, and to start each new year at a more advanced level.  We'll see what we end up doing, but I am truly convinced we can do better and also that we can rear them with strong testimonies.

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I love the idea of homeschooling--despite the fact my kid is already registered for fall kindergarten at the public school down the street and has been attending an out-of-home preschool. This golden age of technology has no doubt made it all the easier, what with resources and information so accessible. All else fails, sign 'em up for online school.

I teach lower elementary and our bread and butter is learning to read and your basic numeracy and computations. Not to shame my profession, but I feel the average educated adult can teach the average student these things. Many an expert has suggested most kids can eventually learn to read without any major assistance.

One of my few moments of pause is special needs, though apparently homeschoolers are within their rights to demand assistance from public schools per FAPE and I have heard of families who will use local public school services for this or that need while keeping the main stuff at home. My concern is more with learning disabilities where a parent may not know how to approach or even recognize the problem. I have a student recently diagnosed with dyscalculia and the research and techniques are rather overwhelming, plus the sobering reality she may always need major assistance with numbers and spacial reasoning.

The point, though, is not what I've said. Despite stories of awesome brilliant homeschooled students attending college at age 6 or whatever, in my experience most homeschooled kids aren't too off the academic average.

Anyone homeechooling for some unlikely academic greatness based solely on homeschooling is indeed missing the point.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

They wait to ask me when I get home. I have often wondered why they don't "ask the internet".

Be glad they don't.  This means things like:

  • They love you
  • It's easy for them to ask you questions
  • They respect you
  • They want to spend time learning from you
  • They trust you

This can be nothing but good, IMO.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

And only one child has my math skills.  But he doesn't want to be an engineer.  In fact, he doesn't even want to be any kind of STEM professional.

That would be me.  Math was for fun, not for work.  (Probably my biggest regret is not studying what I wanted to study in college - a choice I made because of something my mom said.)

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

2) They have a knowledge of the gospel that exceeds any other children of their age in any wards we've been in.

This deserves greater weight by orders of magnitude.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

3) They are more well read than any other kids I've come across. 

Similar, but not as many orders.

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

6) They have self-confidence and an understanding of who they are.  They're just plain happy.
7) We have a level of love, mutual respect, and comradery in our home that I haven't seen in any public schooled family.
8) And they have a testimony of the Savior, the Book of Mormon, and the teachings of the Church.

What the heck are you complaining for!

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

4) They don't spend all their time talking about the opposite sex.  Instead, they talk about ideas and projects.

IMO, the point of education should not be, as it is today, the teaching of facts (particularly given the virus you mention which has removed facts, framed their presentation so as to cause erroneous understanding, and inserted lies as if they were facts).  The point of education should be to teach a person:

  1. The basic, foundational stuff required to learn anything (reading, writing, math)
  2. How to learn (from books, from experience, from others - this would have to include things like how logic/reasoning works; how to observe, theorize, test theory (not just for traditional sciences, but for anything); how to listen; etc.)
  3. How to be a civilized human being (morals, ethics, responsibility, manners)
  4. The breadth of areas available to explore

Having learned these things (which should not take from age ~5 to age ~18), one should then be able to do anything and everything one pleases (or is willing to work at).

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I absolutely hate the idea of homeschool for a few reasons and experiences.

1) I attended early morning seminary for a few months while in highschool rather than release time. Early morning was full of kids that homeschool. They were some of the most awkward people I had ever met. I felt very uncomfortable being in there. There was only one who I felt I could  carry on a conversation with and not get a headache.

2) I have only met one homeschooling person that did well in any extracurricular activity. This was the same person I mentioned above that I felt I could speak to in seminary.

3) they seemed to suffer academically as already mentioned.

4) I had a mission companion that did homeschooling and his social skills were almost non-existent. I absolutely loved him and we had a ton of fun, he also was exactly obedient and did a great job of chastising when needed.

 

I feel like great lessons are lost when you take the social life out of a kid. The greatest leaders in my life were people that were on the football team, leaders in school and well known because of their music prowess. School is an awful place full of evil, but so is the world. School is a place of far more tests and lessons outside the classroom than in. By the time  high school ends, most of us had either developed strong testimonies, decided to leave the church, or were unsure but felt it was true so we held on.

Also, I don’t like the idea that home school can provide the stronger faith centered life. The kids in that seminary class were rather innocent and I’m sure they knew a lot about the gospel (more than me probably), but, it was the football players with testimonies that stood up against the bullies and people hating in religion. It was the track members that became members seminary council. I can’t see home school providing an environment for leadership growth.

Spiritual growth is far more than just knowing and believing scripture.

My friend that was homeschooled was also taking classes from the school and had been participating in ballroom groups sense he was a kid. He had that social life that I feel many lose in the idea of homeschooling.

Also, I can’t think of anything I was taught in a school classroom that went against the gospel.

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16 minutes ago, Fether said:

I absolutely hate the idea of homeschool for a few reasons and experiences.

1) I attended early morning seminary for a few months while in highschool rather than release time. Early morning was full of kids that homeschool. They were some of the most awkward people I had ever met. I felt very uncomfortable being in there. There was only one who I felt I could  carry on a conversation with and not get a headache.

2) I have only met one homeschooling person that did well in any extracurricular activity. This was the same person I mentioned above that I felt I could speak to in seminary.

3) they seemed to suffer academically as already mentioned.

4) I had a mission companion that did homeschooling and his social skills were almost non-existent. I absolutely loved him and we had a ton of fun, he also was exactly obedient and did a great job of chastising when needed.

 

I feel like great lessons are lost when you take the social life out of a kid. The greatest leaders in my life were people that were on the football team, leaders in school and well known because of their music prowess. School is an awful place full of evil, but so is the world. School is a place of far more tests and lessons outside the classroom than in. By the time  high school ends, most of us had either developed strong testimonies, decided to leave the church, or were unsure but felt it was true so we held on.

Also, I don’t like the idea that home school can provide the stronger faith centered life. The kids in that seminary class were rather innocent and I’m sure they knew a lot about the gospel (more than me probably), but, it was the football players with testimonies that stood up against the bullies and people hating in religion. It was the track members that became members seminary council. I can’t see home school providing an environment for leadership growth.

Spiritual growth is far more than just knowing and believing scripture.

My friend that was homeschooled was also taking classes from the school and had been participating in ballroom groups sense he was a kid. He had that social life that I feel many lose in the idea of homeschooling.

Also, I can’t think of anything I was taught in a school classroom that went against the gospel.

Agreed.  I think the homeschooled kids sometimes miss out on a lot of social lessons they would learn in the public school system, such as how to interact with people from different backgrounds.

That said, the world is a lot worse than when I went to school in the 90s.  Teenagers regularly do sinful things that would have been unthinkable then, such as sexting with a hundred people they barely know (apparently and disturbingly not uncommon for LDS teens these days).  Apparently, sleep-overs with friends, which was a staple of innocent childhood fun when I was growing up in the 1990s, are no longer safe.  At some point in the near future, the benefits of homeschooling may outweigh the drawbacks.

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30 minutes ago, Fether said:

I had a mission companion that did homeschooling and his social skills were almost non-existent. I absolutely loved him and we had a ton of fun, he also was exactly obedient and did a great job of chastising when needed.

What you seem to be saying is that the "social disability" he had consisted of obeying the commandments of God rather than follow the social fads of the day.

This is not a "gotcha".  Stop and think about it for a minute.  What do you actually mean when you say someone has non-existent social skills.  Does it not mean that they're not always talking about sex and pop culture?  If not, what do you mean?

I had a problem with getting a straight answer from my father about this.  A couple years after I finally got sold on the idea of homeschooling, he visited with my wife's family. He  kept commenting on how socially awkward they were.  I asked him what he meant by that.  He said,"Well, just the way they behaved.  The way they talked and acted..."

"Like what."

"They were just awkward."

"Give me an example."

"Just trust me.  They were."

Well, I've been around my wife's family for over 20 years now.  And I find them to be the most accepting, loving, and gospel centered people I've ever met.  I enjoy their company more than my own.  So, I still have no concept of what my father was talking about.

He even made the comment that the children probably have very few friends.  Are you kidding?  They are the center of social activity.  Homeschooled and public schooled kids all around the area loved going to their house.  They all depended on them to set up all social events.  When they called, everyone came.

So, I'd ask specifically, what "made your head hurt" when speaking with them?  I'd bet that it was not the homeschooling, but the mother who shaped their social skills.

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I feel like great lessons are lost when you take the social life out of a kid.

It is a common misconception that school is about social life.  I'd rather have my children growing up around adults and learning how adults behave and imitate adult behavior than have them growing up around immature and ignorant children who have but few good examples of good people and end up growing up to be older children because children is all they've seen and imitated for the past 13 years.

You had some great coaches?  Ok.  They exist.  I, myself, had some great teachers.  And truthfully, if I'd been raised by my parents, I'd have a lot more problems.  So, I did benefit.  But what does that tell society?  Parents are not capable of raising children.  Is that a way to strengthen the family?  Is that a way to encourage parents to step up and BE parents?  No.

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Also, I don’t like the idea that home school can provide the stronger faith centered life. The kids in that seminary class were rather innocent and I’m sure they knew a lot about the gospel (more than me probably), but, it was the football players with testimonies that stood up against the bullies and people hating in religion. It was the track members that became members seminary council. I can’t see home school providing an environment for leadership growth.

Leadership is learned wherever it is taught properly.  If homeschoolers never teach it, then the children will not learn it.  If public schools do not teach it, the public schoolers will not learn it.  Think about what is being taught in schools today.  Even if someone learns leadership, what are they going to lead people into?

There is an old saying:  A man who DOES not read good books has no advantage over the man who CANnot read them.

We choose homeschool so we CAN teach our children about leadership.  We CAN teach them about staying true to the commandments of God.  We CAN teach them to trust in God no matter the circumstance.  No one teaches that in public school.  The fact that some learn that in public school is IN SPITE of school rather than because of it.

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Also, I can’t think of anything I was taught in a school classroom that went against the gospel.

I can.

Not what YOU were taught specifically, but...

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11 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Agreed.  I think the homeschooled kids sometimes miss out on a lot of social lessons they would learn in the public school system, such as how to interact with people from different backgrounds.

That said, the world is a lot worse than when I went to school in the 90s.  Teenagers regularly do sinful things that would have been unthinkable then, such as sexting with a hundred people they barely know (apparently and disturbingly not uncommon for LDS teens these days).  Apparently, sleep-overs with friends, which was a staple of innocent childhood fun when I was growing up in the 1990s, are no longer safe.  At some point in the near future, the benefits of homeschooling may outweigh the drawbacks.

That stage of life is tough no matter what. Homeschool, public school, private school-it's just a hard time to be alive. People who say it's the "best years of your life" are either lying or have incredibly sad lives. 

I dated a homeschooled girl for two years. She was very bitter about it. She said she missed out on proms, drama, field hockey, etc. I tried telling her that those things were vastly overrated, but she  never believed me. That's my only close experience with a home schooled person. Yes, I know she's an exception. 

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I've known quite a few homeschooled kids. They all seemed perfectly normal, socially speaking.

My uncle has eleven children. There was a host of different schooling choices there and I can't think if any one made any significant difference in these kids. Some of them were homeschooled. Some attended public school. Some attended private school. Many did a mix of all three (one in particular, who is now a perfectly normal faithful LDS woman) was too obnoxious for homeschool, too mean-girl for private school, but did alright in public school.

Back to the original post and point, I do think most people pick homeschool for mainly values reasons.

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19 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Agreed.  I think the homeschooled kids sometimes miss out on a lot of social lessons they would learn in the public school system, such as how to interact with people from different backgrounds.

That said, the world is a lot worse than when I went to school in the 90s.  Teenagers regularly do sinful things that would have been unthinkable then, such as sexting with a hundred people they barely know (apparently and disturbingly not uncommon for LDS teens these days).  Apparently, sleep-overs with friends, which was a staple of innocent childhood fun when I was growing up in the 1990s, are no longer safe.  At some point in the near future, the benefits of homeschooling may outweigh the drawbacks.

Just as I sad to Fether, what do you mean by social lessons?

What I've found is that when people talk about missing out,

  1. They don't constantly talk about crushes on the opposite sex.
  2. They're not hung up on the latest TV show or what happened to someone on a reality show.
  3. They don't find the school's football team to be the center of their lives.
  4. They don't "talk about the same stuff"  See items 1 to 3 above.

So, what exactly do you mean when you say they did not have proper social lessons?  I think you'll find the mother to be very similar.

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16 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

Agreed.  I think the homeschooled kids sometimes miss out on a lot of social lessons they would learn in the public school system, such as how to interact with people from different backgrounds.

That said, the world is a lot worse than when I went to school in the 90s.  Teenagers regularly do sinful things that would have been unthinkable then, such as sexting with a hundred people they barely know (apparently and disturbingly not uncommon for LDS teens these days).  Apparently, sleep-overs with friends, which was a staple of innocent childhood fun when I was growing up in the 1990s, are no longer safe.  At some point in the near future, the benefits of homeschooling may outweigh the drawbacks.

Well I didnt get out of highschool all that long ago. 

And... I’m ganna be careful in saying this... what is wrong with the sinning (can’t think of how else to say it xD)?? To be honest, some of the worst people knew ended up being some of the most righteous people I know. All young people make stupid decisions, but when it comes down to it, they are going to grab unto the sure foundation. The best leaders grew up doing awful things and later came to themselves.

Sexting, no matter how horrible of a sin it is, does not prevent you from exaltation. And many (not all) of these kids commiting these awful sins do repent later.

A friend of mine said “it’s not a matter of if they will commit a sin, it’s a matter of when and what they will do with it”

NOTE: I am NOT condoning the idea of sin now repent later. I’m saying that sinning today doesn’t prevent righteousness later... which writing still doesn’t sound right to me but I can’t think of how to word it.

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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

That stage of life is tough no matter what. Homeschool, public school, private school-it's just a hard time to be alive. People who say it's the "best years of your life" are either lying or have incredibly sad lives. 

I dated a homeschooled girl for two years. She was very bitter about it. She said she missed out on proms, drama, field hockey, etc. I tried telling her that those things were vastly overrated, but she  never believed me. That's my only close experience with a home schooled person. Yes, I know she's an exception. 

That did happen somewhat back in the day.

Today, homeschool groups fill in all that.  We have our own proms.  We even have sporting events.  They're just not the center of our schooling efforts.  Things are different in today's homeschool culture.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Just as I sad to Fether, what do you mean by social lessons?

What I've found is that when people talk about missing out,

  1. They don't constantly talk about crushes on the opposite sex.
  2. They're not hung up on the latest TV show or what happened to someone on a reality show.
  3. They don't find the school's football team to be the center of their lives.
  4. They don't "talk about the same stuff"  See items 1 to 3 above.

So, what exactly do you mean when you say they did not have proper social lessons?  I think you'll find the mother to be very similar.

I think there is value (or at least I got value out of) forming friendships with people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds such that I saw these people day after day and really got to know them.  Can that really be done in homeschooling groups?  Perhaps, perhaps not (I do not have firsthand experience).  For the same reason, I think it is good in some ways I am not raising my daughter in Provo.  There were missionaries on my mission who had no street smarts, no ability to relate or talk with people who weren't Mormons of European background!  

My real, honest, true problem with homeschooling, though, is this: I personally would have HATED it.  As a teenager, I loved doing things on my own (not sinful), away from my parents.  It would have made me crazy, spending ten hours a day with my parents!  I would have felt totally smothered.  I enjoyed going to school and doing my own thing, meeting and associating with other people, etc.  Homeschooling seems to be a great option for some teens, but I personally needed the space that being in the public school system provided.

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:


7) We have a level of love, mutual respect, and comradery in our home that I haven't seen in any public schooled family.

You haven't met my family.

Disrespectful public school children with dysfunctional homes is not a failure of the public school method.  It's a failure of the parents.  There are plenty of successful parents in public school.  Just go find the Asians (ok, ok, this is a stereotype).

Socially awkward home school children is not a failure of the home school method.  It's a failure of the parents.  There are plenty of successful parents in home school - yours is a perfect example.  It bugs me when people say - home schooling produces socially unadopted kids.  Hello, Tim Tebow - he's not socially awkward, he just doesn't act like the rest of his football team.

 

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, when does homeschooling fail?  

It's not the homeschooling nor the public schooling nor any other type of schooling that fails.  The failure is in the clear establishment of goals and objectives fit for each child's natural abilities.  If your goal was a certain level of academics based on the aptitude of the child and the homeschool did not meet such goal, then the homeschool should have been designed to change to meet that goal even if a tutor is brought in to compensate.  It's the same even if your kid is in public school - if your goal is a certain level of gospel competency (which the public school will never be able to meet) then it is the parents' responsibility to compensate.

My kids are in public school that we specifically researched and vetted to fit my children (we have Magnet Schools in Florida).  I opted to "outsource" academics to the public school.  But that's the only reason they are in public school.  They are not there to emulate their schoolmates, they are not there to make cliques.  They are not there to swallow the socio-political indoctrination of their teachers.  But, I did instruct them that they need to make friends and inspire people.  They are self-confident children who take their priesthood seriously and will not compromise such just because teachers and kids in school "make them do it".  I made it my husband and I's responsibility to teach them good manners and right conduct according to our FAMILY IDENTITY and traditions and if such identity clashes with the School's then my children knows Mom and Dad may not be as good at Math as their teacher but they know Mom and Dad are better at Life than their teachers.

In any case... you don't have to be academically competent to succeed at teaching academics to your children.  Learning - regardless of the method - is a SELF-INSPIRED journey.  A teacher - especially in the elementary level - is simply there to facilitate the learning and provide the child with tools that he can use to learn.  The child learns on his own - seeking the best people to learn from (which could be his older brother, grandpa, uncle Ben, the 12-year-old across the street, etc. etc.) - and achieves the goals you set (yes, I'm a firm believer of Montessori).  I'm good at Math, my husband is terrible at it but he's good at History.  But that doesn't matter.  My kids know the goal is not to be as good as their parents.  The goal is to be as good as they can possibly be.  We use the Public School grading system for metrics - A is acceptable, B is bad, C is catastrophic, D is disaster, F is find a new family (hey, we gotta earn that Asian card, ok?  Hah hah).  We set this goal because we know that our children are capable of meeting it.  My kids have different interests but core academics is required in their schooling and I know they have the aptitude for learning.  I had some concerns about my 2nd child's aptitude for Math but the Montessori helped me realize it's not that he doesn't have the aptitude for Math, he just has a different way of "seeing" Math.  So, I can't help him with Math in the same way I helped my first child.  I first had to learn how he "sees" Math then I can help him understand the abstract principles - and it frustrates me, so he's basically been learning Math on his own, I just had to conference with his teachers to explain to them the challenge and they were more than willing to help my child with it.  We lucked out on all 3 Middle School Math teachers.  They were super amazing that they even let my kid stay after school so they can have a one-on-one with each of them!  They're just happy my kid wants to get good at it!  One of them was a blooming neo-Marxist.  Doesn't matter.  My kid is there to learn Math, not to learn socio-politics.

And as I type this - I got my son's grades on the other window.  He has a D.  In Chinese language class.  Ugh.  I told him to take Latin!  It's easier!

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11 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

What you seem to be saying is that the "social disability" he had consisted of obeying the commandments of God rather than follow the social fads of the day.

This is not a "gotcha".  Stop and think about it for a minute.  What do you actually mean when you say someone has non-existent social skills.  Does it not mean that they're not always talking about sex and pop culture?  If not, what do you mean?

I had a problem with getting a straight answer from my father about this.  A couple years after I finally got sold on the idea of homeschooling, he visited with my wife's family. He  kept commenting on how socially awkward they were.  I asked him what he meant by that.  He said,"Well, just the way they behaved.  The way they talked and acted..."

"Like what."

"They were just awkward."

"Give me an example."

"Just trust me.  They were."

Well, I've been around my wife's family for over 20 years now.  And I find them to be the most accepting, loving, and gospel centered people I've ever met.  I enjoy their company more than my own.  So, I still have no concept of what my father was talking about.

He even made the comment that the children probably have very few friends.  Are you kidding?  They are the center of social activity.  Homeschooled and public schooled kids all around the area loved going to their house.  They all depended on them to set up all social events.  When they called, everyone came.

So, I'd ask specifically, what "made your head hurt" when speaking with them?  I'd bet that it was not the homeschooling, but the mother who shaped their social skills.

It is a common misconception that school is about social life.  I'd rather have my children growing up around adults and learning how adults behave and imitate adult behavior than have them growing up around immature and ignorant children who have but few good examples of good people and end up growing up to be older children because children is all they've seen and imitated for the past 13 years.

You had some great coaches?  Ok.  They exist.  I, myself, had some great teachers.  And truthfully, if I'd been raised by my parents, I'd have a lot more problems.  So, I did benefit.  But what does that tell society?  Parents are not capable of raising children.  Is that a way to strengthen the family?  Is that a way to encourage parents to step up and BE parents?  No.

Leadership is learned wherever it is taught properly.  If homeschoolers never teach it, then the children will not learn it.  If public schools do not teach it, the public schoolers will not learn it.  Think about what is being taught in schools today.  Even if someone learns leadership, what are they going to lead people into?

There is an old saying:  A man who DOES not read good books has no advantage over the man who CANnot read them.

We choose homeschool so we CAN teach our children about leadership.  We CAN teach them about staying true to the commandments of God.  We CAN teach them to trust in God no matter the circumstance.  No one teaches that in public school.  The fact that some learn that in public school is IN SPITE of school rather than because of it.

I can.

Not what YOU were taught specifically, but...

What were you taught that was wrong???

How can you learn to be a leader without being around people to lead? It’s one thing to say and teach how to lead people, it’s conpletely different to actually lead.

As far as the social thing... I think you are right. Where my struggle comes from is that it’s mostly one’s ability to exist in society and to be a leader. I never talked about sex in highschool, but I could carry a conversation about a difficult topic with someone, or get excited about a topic and speak with a friend without talking extremely loud. You need to be able to socialize and relate with people to lead them or to teach them. No body wants to be taught by someone we honk is naive or awkward. (We can find plenty of examples of that here on MormonHub)

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, DoctorLemon said:

\My real, honest, true problem with homeschooling, though, is this: I personally would have HATED it.  As a teenager, I loved doing things on my own (not sinful), away from my parents.  It would have made me crazy, spending ten hours a day with my parents!  I would have felt totally smothered.  I enjoyed going to school and doing my own thing, meeting and associating with other people, etc.  Homeschooling seems to be a great option for some teens, but I personally needed the space that being in the public school system provided.

My thoughts as well. I would have hated it too, and I'm 100% confident my parents would have hated it as well. 

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

You haven't met my family.

 

It's not the homeschooling nor the public schooling nor any other type of schooling that fails.  The failure is in the clear establishment of goals and objectives fit for each child's natural abilities.  If your goal was a certain level of academics based on the aptitude of the child and the homeschool did not meet such goal, then the homeschool should have been designed to change to meet that goal even if a tutor is brought in to compensate.  It's the same even if your kid is in public school - if your goal is a certain level of gospel competency (which the public school will never be able to meet) then it is the parents' responsibility to compensate.

My kids are in public school that we specifically researched and vetted to fit my children (we have Magnet Schools in Florida).  I opted to "outsource" academics to the public school.  But that's the only reason they are in public school.  They are not there to emulate their schoolmates, they are not there to make cliques.  They are not there to swallow the socio-political indoctrination of their teachers.  But, I did instruct them that they need to make friends and inspire people.  They are self-confident children who take their priesthood seriously and will not compromise such just because teachers and kids in school "make them do it".  I made it my husband and I's responsibility to teach them good manners and right conduct according to our FAMILY IDENTITY and traditions and if such identity clashes with the School's then my children knows Mom and Dad may not be as good at Math as their teacher but they know Mom and Dad are better at Life than their teachers.

In any case... you don't have to be academically competent to succeed at teaching academics to your children.  Learning - regardless of the method - is a SELF-INSPIRED journey.  A teacher - especially in the elementary level - is simply there to facilitate the learning and provide the child with tools that he can use to learn.  The child learns on his own and achieves the goals you set (yes, I'm a firm believer of Montessori).  I'm good at Math, my husband is terrible at it but he's good at History.  But that doesn't matter.  My kids know the goal is not to be as good as their parents.  The goal is to be as good as they can possibly be.  We use the Public School grading system for metrics - A is acceptable, B is bad, C is catastrophic, D is disaster, F is find a new family (hey, we gotta earn that Asian card, ok?  Hah hah).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Montessori is awesome!  I was a Montessori kid, as is my daughter, and we both loved it.

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7 minutes ago, Fether said:

And... I’m ganna be careful in saying this... what is wrong with the sinning (can’t think of how else to say it xD)??

If you, as a Latter-day Saint, can't figure that one out on your own, there is no help for you. Go look up the definition of "sinning". That's probably a good start to answering your question.

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

Sexting, no matter how horrible of a sin it is, does not prevent you from exaltation.

Of course it does.

8 minutes ago, Fether said:

A friend of mine said “it’s not a matter of if they will commit a sin, it’s a matter of when and what they will do with it”

What a horrible, cynical, and false-faced attitude. I bet your friend who said this wasn't homeschooled. This is exactly the attitude that my public-schooled self was raised with.

9 minutes ago, Fether said:

I am NOT condoning the idea of sin now repent later.

Of course you are. Please at least own up to plain meaning of your own words.

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

NOTE: I am NOT condoning the idea of sin now repent later. I’m saying that sinning today doesn’t prevent righteousness later... which writing still doesn’t sound right to me but I can’t think of how to word it.

Don't worry, I do understand what you're saying.  And you are right ... to a point.  The thing is that somehow people take that to the next level and believe that denying the light and then aftewards accepting it, you are somehow stronger for it. 

And even though that is exactly what you're trying desperately to NOT say, that is still what the path leads to.

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

My thoughts as well. I would have hated it too, and I'm 100% confident my parents would have hated it as well. 

No kidding!  I don't know how homeschooled children do it - spending all day every day with their parents and siblings, spending ten hours a day in the confines of their house, rarely associating with members of the opposite sex at school (and by "associating" I mean trying to flirt, and failing miserably, as was my experience). . . I used to HATE summer break, because I felt so isolated during those summer months.  I think homeschooling would have driven me absolutely crazy!  (and although I was never very good at socializing in high school, just being around lots of people was important - I felt pretty lost in the couple of months after graduation).

 

Edited by DoctorLemon
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Here's my thoughts on "socializing":

I do think it's important homeschooled kids do get out in the community and interact with others outside their immediate family. I don't imagine it being so hard to do.

As for "typical social school stuff", I don't know if I buy it. While I see nothing wrong with kids chatting about tv and fads and fashion and whatever, is the high school scene really socializing in its natural state, or is it just what happened when we stuck kids in public schools? (Again, nothing wrong with it, but what makes it better?)

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Don't worry, I do understand what you're saying.  And you are right ... to a point.  The thing is that somehow people take that to the next level and believe that denying the light and then aftewards accepting it, you are somehow stronger for it. 

And even though that is exactly what you're trying desperately to NOT say, that is still what the path leads to.

Indeed. I don't condemn those who had sinned and suffered and repented and grown stronger and I rejoice in the lessons they learned.

But is it really the ideal way to go about things?

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1 minute ago, DoctorLemon said:

I don't know how homeschooled children do it - spending all day every day with their parents and siblings, spending ten hours a day in the confines of their house, rarely associating with members of the opposite sex at school (and by "associating" I mean trying to flirt, and failing miserably, as was my experience). . .

DrLem, you do not have the least clue what you're talking about. Please have at least enough self-awareness to realize that you have no idea what homeschooling is about, or like, and that your conclusions about homeschooling are nothing but crudely drawn crayon caricatures of reality. You would not base your understanding of the anatomy and physiology of a horse on a kindergartner's drawing of a "horsey". Likewise, don't base any conclusions about homeschooling on your own (obviously deficient) understandings.

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On a related note, this is also why I don't get the phenomenon of singles ward-aged people continuing to go to church with their parents!  

Why would ANYONE choose to go with their parents when they can go to a ward on their own, socialize away from their parents, etc?

I just don't get it.  Maybe this says something about me and my relationship with my parents more than anything, but I preferred keeping my parents at arms length on, well, just about everything, even though I was not doing anything wrong as a teenager!  

 

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