When Does Homeschooling Fail?

[Guest]

Just now, Vort said:

DrLem, you do not have the least clue what you're talking about. Please have at least enough self-awareness to realize that you have no idea what homeschooling is about, or like, and that your conclusions about homeschooling are nothing but crudely drawn crayon caricatures of reality. You would not base your understanding of the anatomy and physiology of a horse on a kindergartner's drawing of a "horsey". Likewise, don't base any conclusions about homeschooling on your own (obviously deficient) understandings.

Hey man, I didn't mean to offend you.  I am just saying it sounds like something I wouldn't like.

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

DrLem, you do not have the least clue what you're talking about. Please have at least enough self-awareness to realize that you have no idea what homeschooling is about, or like, and that your conclusions about homeschooling are nothing but crudely drawn crayon caricatures of reality. You would not base your understanding of the anatomy and physiology of a horse on a kindergartner's drawing of a "horsey". Likewise, don't base any conclusions about homeschooling on your own (obviously deficient) understandings.

No public school student I have ever met has said “I wish I did home schooling”, of the few homeschooled students I have met, half of them have wished they had been in public school.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Fether

[Vort]

Just now, DoctorLemon said:

Hey man, I didn't mean to offend you.  I am just saying it sounds like something I wouldn't like.

Offense isn't the point. Ignorance is the point. Your comments on homeschooling reveal a chasm of ignorance. You should be aware of this, and definitely take your own opinions with a grain of salt while you seek to gain actual understanding of homeschooling.

Unless you don't care to understand it. Which is fine, I suppose. But in that case, you shouldn't comment on homeschooling at all any more in any circumstance. Expressing an opinion on a topic about which you know nothing is much worse than simply keeping quiet and, when asked, admitting you don't know anything except the caricatures in your head.

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

No public school student I have ever met has said “I wish I did home schooling”, if the few homeschooled students I have met, half of them have wished they had been in public school.

Thanks, Fether. I guess your vast personal experience in this area trumps all other arguments.

[Fether]

Just now, Vort said:

Thanks, Fether. I guess your vast personal experience in this area trumps all other arguments.

Glad you came to that realization

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

Offense isn't the point. Ignorance is the point. Your comments on homeschooling reveal a chasm of ignorance. You should be aware of this, and definitely take your own opinions with a grain of salt while you seek to gain actual understanding of homeschooling.

Unless you don't care to understand it. Which is fine, I suppose. But in that case, you shouldn't comment on homeschooling at all any more in any circumstance. Expressing an opinion on a topic about which you know nothing is much worse than simply keeping quiet and, when asked, admitting you don't know anything except the caricatures in your head.

This is very hurtful coming from someone I consider as a friend.  Fine, I'll keep my mouth shut.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Fether said:

What were you taught that was wrong???

My chemistry teacher was famed for saying,"Sex, drugs, and rock n roll.  You should only get involved in two of them."  This was high school aged children.  And he was not a married man.

My wife's health teacher began the reproduction unit with,"We all know that AIDS is prevented by abstinance.  But SINCE NONE OF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT..."

Socializing in school growing up consisted of kids telling off colored jokes that were COMPLETELY inappropriate for any kids of any age.  Yet, that was par for the course in public schools.

Quote

How can you learn to be a leader without being around people to lead? It’s one thing to say and teach how to lead people, it’s conpletely different to actually lead.

Families are the best place to learn to lead.

A father leads the family.  By having children who watch their father instead of other kids or strangers, they learn what leadership is.  You can lead men in sports or you can be a father of children and raise them up to the Lord.

PLEASE read "Little Britches" by Ralph Moody and the sequel "Man of the Family".  Tell me how this boy learned to be a leader by the age of 12.  Was it school?  Or was it by watching his father?

Quote

As far as the social thing... I think you are right. Where my struggle comes from is that it’s mostly one’s ability to exist in society and to be a leader. I never talked about sex in highschool, but I could carry a conversation about a difficult topic with someone, or get excited about a topic and speak with a friend without talking extremely loud. You need to be able to socialize and relate with people to lead them or to teach them.

I'll share with you an account I've shared on the Hub before you came aboard.

At the office, I went over to ask a couple of men about a certain interface in our design.  As I got closer, I heard them talking about a "men's club."  In my naivete, I thought this was like a hunting club or pool club.  Nope.  I was waiting for a break in the conversation to ask my question when I realized what they were talking about.  I exclaimed,"Oh, THAT kind of men's club."

Partly bothered, partly amused, they turned and asked,"What, you've never been to one before?"

"No."

Another chimed in,"Well, you've got to go with us next time."

"No thanks..."  I was about to ask my question but was interrupted.

"Why not?" Now, this was one guy I considered to be a friend.  So it wasn't an effort to corrupt me. It was a simple invitation from a friend to go do something together.

"Why would I?"

"What are you gay?" (I don't remember if this was the exact question, but it was something like "what is wrong with you?").

"No, I'm a Mormon."

All IN UNISON "OH!! Ok. That makes sense."

What I wondered about this entire exchange was; Why on earth did I have to explain myself?  Why were these grown men talking about such a think in an office environment?  Why did they think there was something wrong with me because of this?  Why did they believe I was deficient because I had enough respect for women to not applaud them for denying their divine nature and degrade themselves?  Why did my explanation have to be "Because I'm a Mormon"?  I would hope the explanation could simply be "Because that is an evil practice and I don't know why on earth any of you would participate."

But I guess "Being a Mormon" = "Have enough respect for women to not applaud their denying their divine nature."  That's what these men understood.  And I believe that is what Mormon men stand for.  I just wish the SLT would understand that.

This is the social order that a CHILD is supposed to stand up to?  No.  Sufficient is the evil of the day.  Let them prepare and gain strength.  Then let them fight the battles with a full armor of God.

Quote

No body wants to be taught by someone we honk is naive or awkward. (We can find plenty of examples of that here on MormonHub)

I resemble that remark.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Guest

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

This is very hurtful coming from someone I consider as a friend.  Fine, I'll keep my mouth shut.

Sorry for offending. That wasn't my intent. Please forgive me: I'm a product of the public schools, so my social skills aren't the sharpest.

My point was that people have strong prejudices about homeschooling, and generally these prejudices are poorly based. People recycle the same tired (and false) arguments: Homeschoolers are isolated! Homeschoolers spend all day every day surfing the web! Homeschoolers are pasty white-complected homebodies who panic if someone talks to them!

Public schools are a reasonable reproduction of hell. Those who have experience only in hell naturally think that's how things should be, and find fault with everything else. Indeed, there is fault to be found with homeschooling and homeschoolers. But the ridiculous stereotype of the socially pathetic homeschooled kid is not it.

My point is: If you're going to cast judgment on homeschooling, do it in an informed way. If you (generic) don't know what you're talking about, then don't just broadcast your stereotyped ignorance. Listen. There are reasons people decide to homeschool, and there are reasons people keep on homeschooling after they start, even when it's hard. Figure out what those reasons are.

[anatess2]

23 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

No kidding!  I don't know how homeschooled children do it - spending all day every day with their parents and siblings, spending ten hours a day in the confines of their house, rarely associating with members of the opposite sex at school (and by "associating" I mean trying to flirt, and failing miserably, as was my experience). . . I used to HATE summer break, because I felt so isolated during those summer months.  I think homeschooling would have driven me absolutely crazy!  (and although I was never very good at socializing in high school, just being around lots of people was important - I felt pretty lost in the couple of months after graduation).

 

Don't you guys have NEIGHBORS?  How about the park?  None of those?  No soccer field?  Basketball teams?  No?  Don't they play when they're done hitting the books?  Ride their bikes around?  Catch snakes and frogs?  No?

Home Schooled kids are just like Public School kids, you know... they go out to play after school.  Even better if they live close to their cousins.  Then they learn to gang up on other kids in the community pool - I mean, if you think that's a good thing for home-schooled kids to learn to do.

Edited April 6, 2018 by anatess2

[Fether]

17 minutes ago, Vort said:

you shouldn't comment on homeschooling at all any more in any circumstance. Expressing an opinion on a topic about which you know nothing is much worse than simply keeping quiet and, when asked, admitting you don't know anything except the caricatures in your head.

Is this not a forum?? Aren’t we suppose to share ideas and views?? No?  If you could offer up a definition of what it really means that would be great.

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Public schools are a reasonable reproduction of hell. Those who have experience only in hell naturally think that's how things should be, and find fault with everything else. Indeed, there is fault to be found with homeschooling and homeschoolers. But the ridiculous stereotype of the socially pathetic homeschooled kid is not it.

 

If you're going to cast judgment on public schooling, do it in an informed way. If you (generic) don't know what you're talking about (the specific public school child's experience and not just some general Seattle version of it), then don't just broadcast your stereotyped ignorance. Listen. There are reasons people decide to public school, and there are reasons people keep on public schooling after they start, even when it's hard. Figure out what those reasons are. 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by anatess2

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Sorry for offending. That wasn't my intent. Please forgive me: I'm a product of the public schools, so my social skills aren't the sharpest.

My point was that people have strong prejudices about homeschooling, and generally these prejudices are poorly based. People recycle the same tired (and false) arguments: Homeschoolers are isolated! Homeschoolers spend all day every day surfing the web! Homeschoolers are pasty white-complected homebodies who panic if someone talks to them!

Public schools are a reasonable reproduction of hell. Those who have experience only in hell naturally think that's how things should be, and find fault with everything else. Indeed, there is fault to be found with homeschooling and homeschoolers. But the ridiculous stereotype of the socially pathetic homeschooled kid is not it.

My point is: If you're going to cast judgment on homeschooling, do it in an informed way. If you (generic) don't know what you're talking about, then don't just broadcast your stereotyped ignorance. Listen. There are reasons people decide to homeschool, and there are reasons people keep on homeschooling after they start, even when it's hard. Figure out what those reasons are.

No offense taken.  The problem with these forums is the written word is tone neutral, so I can't always tell if you are discussing, making a joking comment, or exploding in rage!  Clearly I took your comments far more severely than you intended.

You are correct - I have never been homeschooled and I don't know what it is like, and maybe I shouldn't be commenting on the matter.  

Edited April 6, 2018 by DoctorLemon

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, DoctorLemon said:

You are correct - I have never been homeschooled and I don't know what it is like, and maybe I shouldn't be commenting on the matter.  

That is not the point.  The point is - don't repeat stupid stereotypes as if they're fact especially if you have no experience - firsthand or otherwise.  Rather, comment on "this is what people say"  or "this is what I've noticed with home schooled kids" and allow for learning on the matter.

[zil]

55 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I tried telling her that those things were vastly overrated, but she  never believed me.

 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

I personally would have HATED it. 

34 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

My thoughts as well. I would have hated it too, and I'm 100% confident my parents would have hated it as well. 

24 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

On a related note, this is also why I don't get the phenomenon of singles ward-aged people continuing to go to church with their parents!  

Why would ANYONE choose to go with their parents when they can go to a ward on their own, socialize away from their parents, etc?

I just don't get it.  Maybe this says something about me and my relationship with my parents more than anything, but I preferred keeping my parents at arms length on, well, just about everything, even though I was not doing anything wrong as a teenager!  

Let me try to explain it to you.  For those who have not been paying attention to anything I've said in the past four years -- I really don't like my family.  I really don't like my parents.  And it isn't just a social thing.  They are toxic.  So, if I had to spend all day every day with them, I'd have been even more messed up than I already am.

I had a wonderful public school experience.  I had some wonderful teachers who taught me that I could succeed academically.  So, at least I had that to cling to even if I didn't know how to cleave to the Lord.

So, given my situation, I DEFINITELY was happy to have been in public school.  

But consider this:  My family was truly toxic.  That is why it would have been better for me.  But if you're simply talking about "getting bored" or "not getting out into the world" or you may not have "gotten along" as well as you would have liked, you don't know what you're talking about. 

Maybe you would have hated it as a child.  But as an adult, you would look back and see what benefits you had.  And you'd be thankful.  Just look at the example of my brother-in-law.

28 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

No kidding!  I don't know how homeschooled children do it - spending all day every day with their parents and siblings, spending ten hours a day in the confines of their house, rarely associating with members of the opposite sex at school (and by "associating" I mean trying to flirt, and failing miserably, as was my experience). . . I used to HATE summer break, because I felt so isolated during those summer months.  I think homeschooling would have driven me absolutely crazy!  (and although I was never very good at socializing in high school, just being around lots of people was important - I felt pretty lost in the couple of months after graduation).

And this is all part of the social lie that people buy into.  But this is a fundamental difference of opinion that I don't think we'll be able to discuss without insulting each other.  So, i'll stop there.

[Vort]

14 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

If you're going to cast judgment on public schooling, do it in an informed way. If you (generic) don't know what you're talking about (the specific public school child's experience and not just some general Seattle version of it), then don't just broadcast your stereotyped ignorance. Listen. There are reasons people decide to public school, and there are reasons people keep on public schooling after they start, even when it's hard. Figure out what those reasons are. 

 

I have extensive experience in public schooling, both as a student and as the child of a public school administrator. And I had nothing to do with the Seattle public schools; I was spared from the lower rings of hell.

[Backroads]

25 minutes ago, Vort said:

Public schools are a reasonable reproduction of hell.

To go ahead and make this all about me:

Let me describe my past year of hell. Yes, it was technically at a charter school, but I do consider charter schools to be public schools at least in my area. So, yeah, we are going with the public school description. (Disclaimer: As a supporter of school choice I of course support public school--just pointing out where it can go very, very badly.)

I was physically attacked by students on multiple occasions. I found myself having to teach extremely basic social and life skills to more than a few students. I was given ever-changing expectations, held to expectations that were never given. I was kept at bay from recommending students in severe need of being tested. for learning disabilities. I had more students in my classroom than the parents were promised. I had an unusually high concentration of behavior problems that stemmed both from unfortunate biological reasons as well as kids who came from icky home lives. I had students woefully underprepared for the second grade that were just brought up with no real plan for fixing the matter. My school has recently had a huge influx of special needs and behavior problems and doesn't really know how to handle the high numbers. (Disclaimer: I do not cast disdain upon those with special needs or behavior problems and do support thoughtful inclusion, but all too often no one is prepared to properly handle it and high concentrations of needs are problematic. I have students with home lives out of nightmares. I have seen mind games and mean-girl/guy games played in the ranks of administration, bullying and incapability beyond compare.

This is not to say homeschooling is perfect (there are plenty of horror stories we could all bring up) or that public school is essentially a horrible idea. This is not to say homeschoolers are immune from special needs and behavior problems (I know that some people use homeschooling as a way to help with these issues).

But when public schools become a dumping ground with no good long-term plans, there is a problem.

At least with homeschooling, there's a higher chance parents are semi-functional. (Not to say this is the case with public schools.)

Call my lawyer (I'm putting the forum resident lawyers on retainer without any actual pay, sorry) if you have any further questions regarding my disclaimers.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Backroads

[anatess2]

48 minutes ago, Fether said:

No public school student I have ever met has said “I wish I did home schooling”, of the few homeschooled students I have met, half of them have wished they had been in public school.

 

Bull-hokey.

Tim Tebow did not like public school.  He did not like it so much that he worked to change the Florida School Systems so that a homeschooler can join the sports team of his neighborhood public school because that's the only reason he had to go to public school (in order to get "seen" by College Football recruiters).  This, among other reasons, caused many public school children in Florida (especially in the inner cities), tp remove themselves from the Public School to opt for home schooling.  Florida School System realized they were losing money from all these kids, so they added Home Schooling Option to the Public School System - the Home School has to meet the standards of the Public School and the Public School System provides the school materials for free.  They even have a Virtual School set up for Home Schoolers - so they can have the added help of Public School teachers through an online one-on-one tutoring system.  They then get to have a certificate of completion certified by the Florida Public School System just like they would get at the Public School.

I have a neighbor who flip-flop between home school and public school depending on how long they want to vacation in Japan.  There's also those who have tons of medical absences in public school that decide to go to home school instead.  There's also somebody in our ward who left public school for home school because she did not like the art program at the Public School.  Etc. etc.  That's what happens when you are given equal opportunity choices... you exercise them.

Edited April 6, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I have extensive experience in public schooling, both as a student and as the child of a public school administrator. And I had nothing to do with the Seattle public schools; I was spared from the lower rings of hell.

Your experience.  Not mine.  Just like your home schooling experience is yours.  Not somebody else's.  Stop generalizing public school if you don't want people generalizing home school.  There are tons of failed home schools that we can lob at you.

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Bull-hokey.

Tim Tebow did not like public school.  He did not like it so much that he worked to change the Florida School Systems so that a homeschooler can join the sports team of his neighborhood public school because that's the only reason he had to go to public school.  Because of this, many public school children in our county (especially in the inner cities), removed themselves from the Public School to opt for home schooling.  Florida School System realized they were losing money from all these kids, so they added Home Schooling Option to the Public School System - the Home School has to meet the standards of the Public School and the Public School System provides the school materials for free.  They even have a Virtual School set up for Home Schoolers - so they can have the added help of Public School teachers through an online one-on-one tutoring system.

My little brother does homeschool because he has severe social anxiety (and also because he gets bored at school, he is stinking smart). I believe whole heartedly that homeschool can be successful and offers some advantages that public school does not. but I don’t think for a second that it is better than public school. There will always be exceptions where one is better than the other, but I feel public school offers far more benefits that home school cannot.

Granted I grew up in a nice community in Utah so my view may be different than others.

[Vort]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Your experience.  Not mine.  Just like your home schooling experience is yours.  Not somebody else's.  Stop generalizing public school if you don't want people generalizing home school.  There are tons of failed home schools that we can lob at you.

Generalizations per se aren't the problem. Accurate generalizations are useful, while inaccurate generalizations are harmful. I have provided no references for my "public school is hell" charge other than my own experiences, but I'd lay good odds that my claim is statistically borne out far more than the "homeschoolers are homedroolers" stereotypes I hear so often in forums such as this.

Furthermore, my experiences with public school are real. They actually happened. Others' gossip about homeschooling nerds are just that: gossip. When your statistical pool size N=1, your conclusions have an unusably high variance. My public school experiences do all filter through one lens -- my own -- but they comprise many thousands of hours, not a couple of interactions here and there.

[lostinwater]

22 minutes ago, DoctorLemon said:

You are correct - I have never been homeschooled and I don't know what it is like, and maybe I shouldn't be commenting on the matter.  

i really appreciate your perspective here in all this.  i have a sister who homeschools all of her kids, and i know she really thought over a lot of the points you make - and is actually constantly re-evaluating them.  Her decision to homeschool i think was a function of the temperaments of her children - very much along the lines of what you talked about.

[NeuroTypical]

There's a universal axiom out there - no matter how thick a person's skin, no matter how little they take offense, we're all sensitive about how we choose to parent our kids.  

With that in mind, data is more important than anecdotes.  Have some data:  https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/

Quote

ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE
* The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests. (The public school average is the 50th percentile; scores range from 1 to 99.) A 2015 study found Black homeschool students to be scoring 23 to 42 percentile points above Black public school students (Ray, 2015).

* Homeschool students score above average on achievement tests regardless of their parents’ level of formal education or their family’s household income.

* Whether homeschool parents were ever certified teachers is not related to their children’s academic achievement.

* Degree of state control and regulation of homeschooling is not related to academic achievement.

* Home-educated students typically score above average on the SAT and ACT tests that colleges consider for admissions.

* Homeschool students are increasingly being actively recruited by colleges.

SOCIAL, EMOTIONAL, AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT (SOCIALIZATION)
* The home-educated are doing well, typically above average, on measures of social, emotional, and psychological development. Research measures include peer interaction, self-concept, leadership skills, family cohesion, participation in community service, and self-esteem.

* Homeschool students are regularly engaged in social and educational activities outside their homes and with people other than their nuclear-family members. They are commonly involved in activities such as field trips, scouting, 4-H, political drives, church ministry, sports teams, and community volunteer work.

* Adults who were home educated are more politically tolerant than the public schooled in the limited research done so far.

SUCCESS IN THE “REAL WORLD” OF ADULTHOOD
The research base on adults who were home educated is growing; thus far it indicates that they:
* participate in local community service more frequently than does the general population,
* vote and attend public meetings more frequently than the general population
* go to and succeed at college at an equal or higher rate than the general population
* by adulthood, internalize the values and beliefs of their parents at a high rate

What does this mean?  It does NOT mean that all homeschooled kids are doing better than public school counterparts.  It does mean that when you put all the homeschooled kids in a group, and all the public school kids in a group, the homeschooled kids tend to do better. 

Yes, you can still find ignorance, poor performance, socially awkward homeschooled kids.  But you can find them in greater percentages in the public schooled group.

Edited April 6, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[omegaseamaster75]

I haven't read every post, but why not private school? 

My kids go and they do not get the public school indoctrination, none of the parents are scummy, heck you have to take a test to get in. No social awkwardness because they have social interaction. They do field trips, have sports, all the good stuff of public without any of the crap. The added bonus that the education is great, my daughter constantly tests above her grade level.

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

Generalizations per se aren't the problem. Accurate generalizations are useful, while inaccurate generalizations are harmful. I have provided no references for my "public school is hell" charge other than my own experiences, but I'd lay good odds that my claim is statistically borne out far more than the "homeschoolers are homedroolers" stereotypes I hear so often in forums such as this.

Furthermore, my experiences with public school are real. They actually happened. Others' gossip about homeschooling nerds are just that: gossip. When your statistical pool size N=1, your conclusions have an unusably high variance. My public school experiences do all filter through one lens -- my own -- but they comprise many thousands of hours, not a couple of interactions here and there.

Well, keep at your cynicism of public school.  We who have TONS of family who graduated out of it and still maintained great children in strong families will keep our statistics to ourselves.  My brother, my sister, a lot of my cousins splattered all over the US -  have kids who are in Public School or graduated from public school.  I can list their achievements - academic, gospel, social, intact families that are assets to their communities.   But yeah, you just keep on calling Public School hell and telling us we don't know what "not hell" is.  You are better than this but you can disappoint me.  It's just the internet.

Edited April 6, 2018 by anatess2