When Does Homeschooling Fail?


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5 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I haven't read every post, but why not private school? 

My kids go and they do not get the public school indoctrination, none of the parents are scummy, heck you have to take a test to get in. No social awkwardness because they have social interaction. They do field trips, have sports, all the good stuff of public without any of the crap. The added bonus that the education is great, my daughter constantly tests above her grade level.

And there are drug-infested private schools too.  And there's this super cliquey one in Florida where some Bush descendants go to... ugh.

IT'S NOT THE SCHOOL.  It's the PARENTS.

Edited by anatess2
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Just now, anatess2 said:

You are better than this

I notice you avoided responding to the substance of what I wrote. In any case, you are wrong. I am not better than this. This is who and what I am, and I don't pretend to be anything better.

And it's not cynicism you hear from me; it's first-hand experience. Believe me or don't, or say that my experiences don't generalize. You might be right. But before you get too comfortable, review NT's post and the research it cites.

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7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I haven't read every post, but why not private school? 

My kids go and they do not get the public school indoctrination, none of the parents are scummy, heck you have to take a test to get in. No social awkwardness because they have social interaction. They do field trips, have sports, all the good stuff of public without any of the crap. The added bonus that the education is great, my daughter constantly tests above her grade level.

I've actually heard too many private school horror stories.

But I do support their existence simply because people can shop around for private schools. (Not all require tests or good grades, quite a few are specialized, etc)

What I do hate is parents automatically assuming a school is better simply because they're private.

I don't think I'd ever teach in one simply because the pay generally sucks.

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Just now, Backroads said:

I've actually heard too many private school horror stories.

But I do support their existence simply because people can shop around for private schools. (Not all require tests or good grades, quite a few are specialized, etc)

What I do hate is parents automatically assuming a school is better simply because they're private.

I don't think I'd ever teach in one simply because the pay generally sucks.

I never said that private were better but they are an option, when looking for a school for my kids we school shopped, looked at reviews interviewed the principles etc. You have choices and can be selective.  when you pay you have a little more say.

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30 minutes ago, Vort said:

I notice you avoided responding to the substance of what I wrote. In any case, you are wrong. I am not better than this. This is who and what I am, and I don't pretend to be anything better.

And it's not cynicism you hear from me; it's first-hand experience. Believe me or don't, or say that my experiences don't generalize. You might be right. But before you get too comfortable, review NT's post and the research it cites.

NT's post has no bearing on the matter.   I have not, nor ever have disparaged home schools.  But the metrics he gave for home school does not mean public school is hell. 

I will state this again - it is not the teaching method that fails a student.  IT IS THE PARENT.  NT's post support this fact.  Most home school parents choose home school because they want a better option for their child that is not present in the community.  In other words, they're Good Parents.  You put all these parents in one neighborhood and have them send their kids to a neighborhood Public School in their midst and voila.  You're gonna have a great Public School.

Now, if you're a financially-challenged family in Seattle, where you can't choose the Public School your child attends, then you're screwed.   These scenarios of stuck families contribute to the Public School statistic. That's not the case in School-Choice Florida or in a lot of households where families can move houses to better Public School Systems.  This time, GOOD parents have a wider array of options within the Public School without having to opt for home school or private school.  This is my family.  They look for a great school then they do what it takes to send them there - even if that includes moving houses (my cousin just did this last year in New Jersey).  If they can't find a good school then they find the Catholic School in the area.  If there's none, then they home school.

Guess what else adds to the statistics in Public School that doesn't add as much to the Home School?  BAD parents that has zero interest in their children.  These people are usually found in culture clusters.  Avoid that neighborhood.  They're not just contributors to bad schools that get included in the Public School statistic.  They're contributors to a bad community too.

If you believe that Public School is bad by virtue of it being a public school you need to take a look at South Korea.  If you believe that home schooling is good by virtue of it being a home school, look at the NPA kids in Southern Philippines.

Edited by anatess2
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1 minute ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

I never said that private were better but they are an option, when looking for a school for my kids we school shopped, looked at reviews interviewed the principles etc. You have choices and can be selective.  when you pay you have a little more say.

 

Oh, I didn't mean to accuse you.

Just something I've seen. "I want to go to that school because it's private!" (That's it? That's your only reason? Does it have any particular curriculum or perks you're considering? Why this private school over that private school?) 

Like you say, the good thing on private schools is you can shop around.

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33 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Exception, always the exception....

There will always be an exception because you're looking at one simplistic variable in a multi-variant system.  There is only one control point in that multi-variant system - the parents.

Edited by anatess2
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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

There will always be an exception because you're looking at one simplistic variable in a multi-variant system.  There is only one control point in that multi-variant system - the parents.

You can judge by exception, you can make decisions based on exception, you can't live your life by exception. So if you want to point out an exception your should qualify it.

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1 hour ago, DoctorLemon said:

You are correct - I have never been homeschooled and I don't know what it is like, and maybe I shouldn't be commenting on the matter.  

 I will try to help by summarizing some things I've read and personally experienced.  Wife (and sometimes I) have homeschooled two daughters, an experiment now coming to a close as they get older. 

The definition of "homeschool", basically means, to withdraw your children from public/private school and do something else.  That said, there is wide variety in what that "something else" looks like.    We lived next door to a Catholic homeschooling family, and they kept having more and more kids (up to a dozen now I think), and the two households were very different.  They had a ton of home-based structure and intensive curriculum.  We had some curriculum, a hodge-podge of different homsechool co-ops run by mommies, and several different 1-day-a-week programs offered by a school district interested in attracting homeschooled kids from other districts.   Occasionally a huge wave of giggly neighbor girls would come crashing over into our yard and carry our girls off for adventures. 

I taught one daughter to read.  It was rewarding and bonding.  Her final lesson was "Read this word out loud: Supercallafragileisticexpiallidocious."  She did it.  That's how you know you're done.

In the 15-ish years of homeschooling, my wife tried an LDS-based co-op (she hated it), a secular-themed co-op (they hated her), and finally a co-op run by mommies who mostly attended a local mega-church.  They accepted us mormons and our strange ways, and love bombed the holy crap out of us for 6-7 years.  We let them teach our kids geology and art and music and history, but we did the religious instruction and avoided their creationist science stuff.    Other mommies included homemakers and professionals.  More than one professional teacher homeschooling their kids.  More than one masters degree holding mommy.  Even a biochemist PhD mommy who had quit to raise her kids.  

We ran into many, many, many people, who spoke out of ignorance.  Everything from sentences starting with "I just can't understand why anyone would...", to people recoiling from us in horror as if we were an immediate threat to their children.  We had a bumper sticker on our car for them: "Danger: Unsocialized Homeschoolers on Board!"

 

Whenever we met someone new, and they found out we homeschooled, we got one of three basic reactions:

- Suspicion/mistrust/worry.  Lots of hastilly changed subjects, lots of questions like "aren't you worried about..."
- Positive reaction of some sort.  From "Oh, that's cool", to enthusiastic acceptance.
- Embarrassed envy.  People heard we homeschooled, and they'd look inwardly and judge themselves harshly.  "I wish we could do that, but [reason x]".

 

I have some funny stories to share.

Edited by NeuroTypical
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7 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

You can judge by exception, you can make decisions based on exception, you can't live your life by exception. So if you want to point out an exception your should qualify it.

You only think it's an exception.  It's not an exception.  It is CAUSAL.  If you don't realize what causes a private school to fail, you run the risk of sending your kid to a failing private school.  Tons of them in the Philippines.

If you also don't know why a private school succeeds, then you wouldn't know if sending the kid to a private school is the only good option for him especially when you start bouncing off the decision with the money you have.

Edited by anatess2
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Funny homeschooling story:   I was in my front yard, my daughters and the Catholic neighbor's gazillion giggly girls were all milling about playing.  Both houses know each other, we are good friends with their parents.  These are quite possibly the best neighbors I've ever had.  One of the older girls, about maybe twelve, came running up to me all excited. 

Her: "Mr Typical!  Mr. Typical!  Those flies are copulating!"
Me: "Um... what?"
Her: "Yeah!  See - right there!  I just finished my unit on it!  See - the male fly has sexual organs and he... [proceeds to energetically explain the process in detail, quite fully, using proper terms like "genetic material".  She did quite well in my opinion.]
Me: "Well then.  You seem to know all about it."
Her: [blushing slightly]  "Well, I don't know everything about it..." [runs off]

 

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

You only think it's an exception.  It's not an exception.  It is CAUSAL.  If you don't realize what causes a private school to fail, you run the risk of sending your kid to a failing private school.  Tons of them in the Philippines.

The status of private schools in the philippines is in no way relevant to the current conversation. 

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4 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

The status of private schools in the philippines is in no way relevant to the current conversation. 

Oh really?  You think American private schools are immune from failure by virtue of them being American?

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My view is slanted.  It is biased.  I am a Historian...and I normally would like to say I focus on research (and I do that...a LOT), but I do occasionally need to teach a class or two (especially between the months of September and May).  Most of the kids I associate with, therefore, are university age kids. 

My experience with Home Schooled kids are that most of them excel.  They study hard and work hard.  I have seen FAR more home schooled kids that get into college between the ages of 14-18 than any other.  The ones that I deal with are normally very smart and educated.

Overall I'd prefer children to be raised in a public school.  It exposes them to the brutal realities of life and the temptations that they have to deal with later on.  It prepares them for the wiles of men.  What resisting temptation boils down to is preparation of the child.  If the child knows the way they should go, they will not wander from it, whether they are homeschooled or go to a public school or a private school. 

If their education is lacking from homeschooling, I'd suggest sending them to a public school...IF that public school has a good rating (different schools are rated).  If they are taught to be good, then they will be able to know good and evil at the school and choose to be good kids.  If they have a predilection towards choosing evil...it may be a harder call.  You can protect them while they are at home, but eventually they WILL end up in the wild...aka...the rest of the world.

I'd say at least 80-90% of college kids are engaging in some sort of sin that the LDS church would not approve of.  Your children will have a LOT more fierce and harsh temptation at most Universities (Though perhaps not if they manage to go to LDS private universities and colleges.  I'm speaking of the public University and Colleges in the US).  If your child has a predilection to choose evil, they will eventually be exposed to it.  The question is whether to have them exposed to it while they are still home and hopefully you can guide them, or whether it will be later when you are not around.  Tragedy can (and may often) occur when children go to public schools.  I can't say it will not, it is entirely possible.  The biggest hope is that there are parents there to help them through these obstacles and that the children actually listen and learn from their parents rather than ignore their parents.

Even children that are guided successfully in their younger years occasionally fall to the temptations that abound in adult life beyond the LDS home.  it is a sinful and harsh world out there currently, but it is one we need to be in, but not necessarily of the world. 

I'd say, pray about it and take it up with the Lord.

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34 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

Overall I'd prefer children to be raised in a public school.  It exposes them to the brutal realities of life and the temptations that they have to deal with later on.  It prepares them for the wiles of men.  What resisting temptation boils down to is preparation of the child.

Which is why I always take my six-year-olds to a whorehouse, then to a crackhouse. They need to understand the realities of life.

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51 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

1) It exposes them to the brutal realities of life and the temptations that they have to deal with later on.  It prepares them for the wiles of men. 

2) What resisting temptation boils down to is preparation of the child.  If the child knows the way they should go, they will not wander from it, whether they are homeschooled or go to a public school or a private school. 

Statement 1 contradicts statement 2.

Would you send a raw recruit into the front lines?  No.  You send them through basic training without the enemy bearing down on you.  You teach them what their weapons are.  You train them evasive maneuvers and the art of concealment.  You train them and prepare them.  After a certain point, when they can take care of themselves, THEN they are ready to go into battle.

5 years old, 12 years old, 16 years old?  When are they ready to handle it by themselves?  Depends on the child.  Depends on the parents.  But I'd wager the VAST majority of youth are not ready by 14 or 15 years old.  Yet, we shove our kids into "the real world" at 5 years old?  And, yes, they received indoctrination that early.

How about, protect, nurture, love, and teach our children until they can wear the whole Armor of God before sending them off into battle in the front lines?  Children learn to deal with temptation by first learning the things of God.  Moses was able to discern Satan's deception by first knowing the glory of God.  Having seen the One, he knew to despise the other.  How can we hope for our little children to know the difference if we are throwing them into the fray before they even reach the age of accountability?

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6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You haven't met my family.

No, I haven't.  But you've said enough about them that I feel like I know them.  And you're absolutely right to be proud of them.  That isn't really the issue about home/public school (for me).

6 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Disrespectful public school children with dysfunctional homes is not a failure of the public school method.  It's a failure of the parents.  There are plenty of successful parents in public school.  Just go find the Asians (ok, ok, this is a stereotype).

Socially awkward home school children is not a failure of the home school method.  It's a failure of the parents.  There are plenty of successful parents in home school - yours is a perfect example.  It bugs me when people say - home schooling produces socially unadopted kids.  Hello, Tim Tebow - he's not socially awkward, he just doesn't act like the rest of his football team.

It's not the homeschooling nor the public schooling nor any other type of schooling that fails.  The failure is in the clear establishment of goals and objectives fit for each child's natural abilities.  If your goal was a certain level of academics based on the aptitude of the child and the homeschool did not meet such goal, then the homeschool should have been designed to change to meet that goal even if a tutor is brought in to compensate.  It's the same even if your kid is in public school - if your goal is a certain level of gospel competency (which the public school will never be able to meet) then it is the parents' responsibility to compensate.

You're essentially saying "Just because one homeschools does not mean that they will automatically learn the things of God."  You're right.  I never said otherwise.  Parents need to use this opportunity to teach their children Who God Is.  They need to use that time wisely.  Here's a metaphor to help understand my intent.

Public School:  Raging rivers going downhill.
Home School: Slow moving stream downhill.

Parental guidance: Pulling the oars to take the family Upstream.

The problem I see sometimes is that when comparing home school to public school, we don't compare apples to apples.  If you have a parent who takes their kids out of public school because of the evils there and then does nothing to teach them the ways of the Lord, then they're not doing them much of a favor.  And I also recognize that there are parents who leave their kids in public school and are strong enough that they pull them upstream every day.

But my metaphor here is that the movement of the water is where the public/home school difference is seen.  The remainder is up to the parents.  As you said to Omega, it is multi-variant.  But I would rather work with my children in the quiet stream rather than the raging river.

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