When Does Homeschooling Fail?


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Guest MormonGator
2 minutes ago, Vort said:

The front-page headline and top half of today's Seattle Times

Do you still read a physical paper? I mean, I knew you were old, but wow. 

(Kidding @Vort.  I read the Sunday New York Times cover to cover.)

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2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

OP basically described his wife as someone who was math deficient and couldn’t spell. I wouldn’t want her teaching my children, and can only feel sorry for hers.

He may have mentioned such things in his description, but I don't think that's a correct overall characterization of what he wrote. And I don't feel sorry for the children; I think they're lucky. I have met numerous public school teachers in various capacities over the years, and to be blunt, they are not a cross-section of our best and brightest. Some are, of course, but on the whole, public school teachers are most decidedly average in their mental agility (and teaching ability).

My father, a truly gifted math teacher, used to teach a college class especially for public school teachers. The class's purpose was to convince the teachers that math wasn't hard and evil. Most of his students were -- you guessed it -- math teachers. They would leave his class raving about how wonderful of a teacher he was and how they never knew that math could be understandable, much less fun.

Those are the people teaching your children how to do math, people who hate math and suck at it. Even when we allowed (and allow) our children to attend certain public school classes, we refuse to let them take a math class. We teach them at home. Why? Because we want them to know how to do math.

You don't have to be an expert at everything to successfully homeschool. You need only to be humble, open to learning, reasonably intelligent, and able to show your children how to search out information all around them.

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Do you still read a physical paper? I mean, I knew you were old, but wow. 

(Kidding @Vort.  I read the Sunday New York Times cover to cover.)

We quit subscribing to that vile rag about a year ago, but Sister Vort finally weakened enough to resubscribe for Sundays only. She felt like the ads and coupons more than paid us back for the price of the paper. For their part, the Times was happy to cut us a great deal so that we could have the privilege of them pumping their sewage into our living room on a weekly basis.

As for the NYT, I can only suggest that you give the WSJ a try. The writing is better, and the politics less vomitously NYTimes-ish.

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Guest MormonGator
1 minute ago, Vort said:

As for the NYT, I can only suggest that you give the WSJ a try.

:: snickers :: 

Son, I've been reading that paper since before you were born. Since I was a freshmen in college actually. It's the only paper I read daily.

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2 hours ago, askandanswer said:
On 4/8/2018 at 8:17 AM, Vort said:

I know that's a popular saying, but I know of no such scriptural injunction.

This is just an observation/comment here, and not a criticism, but I couldn't help noting how similar the above phrase is to one of Rob's favourite questions. 

 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I quite honestly don't know what question you're talking about.

Apparently, my attempt at winking humor failed.

I was thinking of "Where does it say that in the scriptures?" Just a comment, and not a critique.

  @MormonGator  knows how bad I am at internet humour

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

We quit subscribing to that vile rag about a year ago, but Sister Vort finally weakened enough to resubscribe for Sundays only. She felt like the ads and coupons more than paid us back for the price of the paper.

If you can find the most convenient dumpster to the end of a delivery route, the carriers generally don't take their leftovers back to the office.  Turned out that was a block down from one apartment I lived in in Dallas, and with a little practice, I could strip a dozen papers of their coupon sections, one Sunday comic section and one local events guide in about a minute.

We'd clip as many of the coupons as we were pretty sure we could use before they expired, then drop the rest of the stack in the laundry room of the apartment complex, where it would quickly dwindle to a few $0.10 off >$5 product ones.

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I was home schooled from 6th grade on up through 12th. I scored higher than average on the ACT and SAT exams although I am far from a brain. My older brother was also home schooled and went on to become a physics professor at a university although he did just leave that job for Ratheon Corp. doing missile modeling or something along those lines. There were 8 kids in the family. Two I would call somewhat socially inept. Everyone else is perfectly normal including of course yours truly. (:  There were a lot of things I missed out on by not attending public school such as sports and shop classes and such that I would have enjoyed. I did rodeo, for one because I enjoyed it and would have done it anyway, but also because there was no other sport I could play! At that time home schoolers were scorned in our area of southwestern Idaho and were not allowed to participate in sports. My home ward was divided on the issue and it got to the point where the stake president got up at the beginning of sacrament meeting and chastised the anti home schooler's and told them to cool it. I had a lot of friends I did stuff with. One thing I did like about being home schooled is I could work hard and get my school work done and go hunting all the time or to a roping or wherever while everyone else was still in school. That was nice. Would I home school my kids? No. Why? Because neither my wife nor I have the mindset or whatever you want to call it to do it. And we have good schools were we are so the pressure perhaps isn't as great. Homeschooling works better for some than others, that is all there is to it.

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17 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

OP basically described his wife as someone who was math deficient and couldn’t spell. I wouldn’t want her teaching my children, and can only feel sorry for hers.

15 hours ago, Vort said:

He may have mentioned such things in his description, but I don't think that's a correct overall characterization of what he wrote.

To set the record straight:

1) She really does have terrible spelling skills.  I said they were the worst I've ever seen.  But I just realized that Traveler's skills are worse.  And I don't think anyone here would call him an ignoramus.

2) She has had bad math skills.  But she's been improving.  Today she's at a level that is fairly average for a high school graduate.  It's just that I was in advanced classes since 4th grade.  So, my math skills are that much more beyond hers.  

3) Her strength is mainly that she's read A  LOT.  She's read all kinds of classics.  She's also highly well read in politics, economics, sociology, history, etc.  In my mind, this makes her terribly well informed on a LOT of topics.  And her judgment is sound in almost everything she chooses.

4) She's also quite the biologist.  That's what she specialized in.  She has weaknesses in chemistry and physics.  But guess who she knows that is quite well versed in chemistry and physics?

5) In spite of all these weaknesses, she spent her junior and senior year of high school in public school.  She graduated with straight A's.  So, I'm not sure if her failings in academics is a good argument to choose public schooling as a "better" academic environment.

When I was on the other side of the argument, one of my primary misgivings on the subject was that I didn't think she was qualified to teach our children.  And I fully understand others not accepting that situation either.  But that's not the whole story.  My wife may not have the best spelling skills.  But because she knows this about herself, she does not trust herself to check spelling.  So, she uses the dictionary and spelling lists published by reliable sources.

The effect has been to encourage the children to look things up rather than depend on their mother for all knowledge.  My oldest son has taken to reading the dictionary for leisure.   Don't ask how that happened.  I don't know.  When they ask me questions nowadays, my first question is,"Did you look it up?  And what did it say?"  Then I only get involved if they have already looked it up, but the explanation has some incongruity in it.

So, there is actually a benefit in her not being quite as well educated.  It teaches the children how to look up information and how to determine if a source is reliable or not.

The danger is if you do what my parents did.  If they didn't know, they just made something up.  I'm still repeating things my parents told me only to find out that they were wrong all this time.

NOTE: Up until 3rd grade, I was in remedial education.  Yeah.  That's right.  Remedial.  And for some reason, in 4th grade I magically went into advanced education.  Whaddup?  I'm still not sure what the deal was.  I had thought it was because of my language skills.  But my family and friends all told me that I spoke like any other American child my age.

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On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, Vort said:

I know that's a popular saying, but I know of no such scriptural injunction. I do know of scriptures that say "come ye out from Babylon" and "be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord".

I got busy this weekend, but the thread went onwards a great deal.   I thought I'd answer this remark though.  I believe it comes from John 17, which is normally the verse utilized when making the remark...in the world, but not of the world.

Quote

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

And also John 15:19 where in is stated

Quote

19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Now, one may say this does not say the exact phrase of "in the world but not of the world" so with that in mind, for the strict scriptorian, we'd have to turn to modern prophets in regards to this phrase.  Now this is just a CURRENT thing and these are modern articles.  The LDS church could change these (though some of them I imagine they will not, but some they might).

How can I be in the world but not of the world (Youth Article)

Being in the world not of the World (Youth Article)

To Be in the World but not Of the World - James Cullimore 1973 Oct Conference

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph F. Smith ch. 19 In the World but not Of the World

I could go on, but somehow when I hit enter it posted this prematurely, even before I had the chance to review.  I think the general idea is posted of where we might get the idea of "Being in the World, but not of the World" in the LDS church.  Some could source it to the scriptures (New Testament) while others would probably link it to LDS tradition drawn from certain scriptures and Teachings of our Lord.

 

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1 minute ago, JohnsonJones said:

I got busy this weekend, but the thread went onwards a great deal.   I thought I'd answer this remark though.  I believe it comes from John 17, which is normally the verse utilized when making the remark...in the world, but not of the world.

And also John 15:19 where in is stated

Now, one may say this does not say the exact phrase of "in the world but not of the world" so with that in mind, for the strict scriptorian, we'd have to turn to modern prophets in regards to this phrase.  Now this is just a CURRENT thing and these are modern articles.  The LDS church could change these (though some of them I imagine they will not, but some they might).

How can I be in the world but not of the world (Youth Article)

Your scriptural examples from John tend to support my interpretation that the Lord calls us to spiritually come out of the filthy world, or not to be a part of the world, rather than the interpretation that suggests we have a divine mandate to mingle with the world and be a part of it.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Your scriptural examples from John tend to support my interpretation that the Lord calls us to spiritually come out of the filthy world, or not to be a part of the world, rather than the interpretation that suggests we have a divine mandate to mingle with the world and be a part of it.

Sorry I didn't get to write the full response I was working on (then again, maybe it is for the best as I tend to get long winded and it was already long) as I was trying to post links and hit enter on one of them, the forum posted what I typed before I got to finish it.  We could relate it to the topic, but I think the verse goes far more than just that...

Quote

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Looking at the above portion of John 17, to me it seems to be talking about the Lord and those who follow him.  His point of reference for his own life where he was in the world seems to me to be when he was actively among the Jews teaching them in his mortal ministry.  He then points out that even as he was among the Jews and teaching them, he was hated because, even though he was among the Jews and with them, he did not act as they did and did not teach them as they wished. 

I think that applies to the LDS, and as former General Authorities have remarked, we are a peculiar people.  We go to work and participate in our day to day lives with those in the world, but we do things that are peculiar to us, or in otherwords, we follow the commandments of the Lord even when others do not.  We stand out for not drinking coffee or tea or alcohol and for not smoking.  We try to refrain from foul language (or many of us) and we go to three hours of church on Sunday (and with meetings...some of us a LOT more).  We do not believe in breaking the law of chastity, and in fact hold it up as a particularly important thing to keep in our day and age.  We follow the ten commandments, and even more, try to follow the Higher law established in the Beatitudes.

Thus I see this as we are actively among the other children of our Father, but we do not act as the world would have us act, but as our Lord has commanded and shown us by his example.

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21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

To set the record straight:

1) She really does have terrible spelling skills.  I said they were the worst I've ever seen.  But I just realized that Traveler's skills are worse.  And I don't think anyone here would call him an ignoramus.

2) She has had bad math skills.  But she's been improving.  Today she's at a level that is fairly average for a high school graduate.  It's just that I was in advanced classes since 4th grade.  So, my math skills are that much more beyond hers.  

3) Her strength is mainly that she's read A  LOT.  She's read all kinds of classics.  She's also highly well read in politics, economics, sociology, history, etc.  In my mind, this makes her terribly well informed on a LOT of topics.  And her judgment is sound in almost everything she chooses.

4) She's also quite the biologist.  That's what she specialized in.  She has weaknesses in chemistry and physics.  But guess who she knows that is quite well versed in chemistry and physics?

5) In spite of all these weaknesses, she spent her junior and senior year of high school in public school.  She graduated with straight A's.  So, I'm not sure if her failings in academics is a good argument to choose public schooling as a "better" academic environment.

When I was on the other side of the argument, one of my primary misgivings on the subject was that I didn't think she was qualified to teach our children.  And I fully understand others not accepting that situation either.  But that's not the whole story.  My wife may not have the best spelling skills.  But because she knows this about herself, she does not trust herself to check spelling.  So, she uses the dictionary and spelling lists published by reliable sources.

The effect has been to encourage the children to look things up rather than depend on their mother for all knowledge.  My oldest son has taken to reading the dictionary for leisure.   Don't ask how that happened.  I don't know.  When they ask me questions nowadays, my first question is,"Did you look it up?  And what did it say?"  Then I only get involved if they have already looked it up, but the explanation has some incongruity in it.

So, there is actually a benefit in her not being quite as well educated.  It teaches the children how to look up information and how to determine if a source is reliable or not.

The danger is if you do what my parents did.  If they didn't know, they just made something up.  I'm still repeating things my parents told me only to find out that they were wrong all this time.

NOTE: Up until 3rd grade, I was in remedial education.  Yeah.  That's right.  Remedial.  And for some reason, in 4th grade I magically went into advanced education.  Whaddup?  I'm still not sure what the deal was.  I had thought it was because of my language skills.  But my family and friends all told me that I spoke like any other American child my age.

Carb, I'm not sure if this is related to your situation with your wife.  I'm gonna share it to see if maybe this rings some bells.

My husband has terrible math skills.  I'm an Engineering grad.  My oldest kid has an easy time with math.  My 2nd kid had a terrible time with math.  So my husband said, oh, he takes after me.  I refused to accept that.  So I went on an intense focus on trying to understand why my kid is having trouble with math.  He was in the Public School where my oldest kid has an easy time with math in school, getting straight A's all the time.  But I was not satisfied with their Math teaching method (they only taught one way and it was aligned with Common Core).  So, I supplemented his math instruction at home to round up his math skills.  My 2nd kid had a terrible time at school with math and I tried to help him at home but we were just not connecting.  He just doesn't get what I'm trying to get from him.  But, to tell you the truth, I just got lucky because my 2nd kid went to a Montessori pre-K (he was 17 days shy of age-qualifying for Kindergarten).  So when he started failing in the Public School, I pulled him out and moved him back to the Montessori.  And his math problems disappeared!  I realized what the issue was - he just had a completely different way of seeing numbers.  He doesn't see number as an abstract number count.  Rather, he sees a number as an actual item in his head.  For example - when I ask my oldest kid, if you have 8 slices of pizza and you hand them out evenly to 4 boys how many slices does each boy get?  My kid sees this, like I do, as numbers - 8 divided by 4 = 2.  My other kid doesn't see this as  numbers, he sees this in his head as actual pizzas flying to 4 kids hands.  So he knows the answer is 2 but he can't tell you how he got the answer.   So when the standard Public School gives him a test of 30 math equations (e.g. 2+8, 3-1, 2x4, 4/2, etc.) he gets either 0 or very low scores.  It took him a long time to associate those things with real life.  The Montessori had the option of using counting beads.  So you can represent your answers with beads, so he got perfect scores.  Anyway, now that I understand how his brain worked, I can now try to work with it to teach him abstract things, like algebra - and it was awesome that all his Middle School teachers - he went to a Science and Technology Public School - knew how to handle the way his brain functioned.

And then, I realized... this may be why my husband also has problems with Math!  His dad was in the military so he was moving a lot and never really got a stable school environment where people are interested in figuring out why he was failing math.  His mom was just satisfied as long as he gets on to the next grade level.  So I talked to him about it and sure enough, it's the same issue.  So, at least in my statistical sample of 1, the way they "saw math" was genetic.

And here's another thing I noticed.  Both my kids can read like the wind.  Very fast readers.  I think this has to do with their fondness for group gaming and how they have to read the conversation scrolling fast on the side screen while playing the game.  But, after much discussion about it, we realized that they read very differently from each other.  My oldest son reads letters and words and phrases.  He can read very fast because he skips words.  He just picks out the main words in a sentence and just gets the gist of what the paragraph is saying.  My other son doesn't do that.  He sees words like he sees a picture.  They are not individual letters to him.  It's like a picture.  So his brain captures the sentence very fast.  So, if you ask him how to spell something, he has to first write it down, then he can tell you how it is spelled!

Anyway, I'm thinking maybe your wife is the same - her brain simply processes information very differently from the majority of kids and her teachers/parents just didn't know to figure out how or what is the best teaching method that fits the way her brain functions.

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18 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I think the Utah Valley is a great place to live and raise a family. IMO, none better. I lived there myself for a time.  And I have near family in the area as well.  But I do know that living there is far different than most other areas in the US. And that colors perceptions of other places and societal norms. Most people in urban areas of this nation have two earner households to both have a lifestyle and afford housing. Daycare is very rampant and I suspect the family size differs as well.  These facts alone obviate home school as an option for the vast majority of families.  In my neighborhood we are nodding acquaintances at best with our neighbors. My wife is the only female home during working hours. When our children were being raised, they had no peers close enough to play with on a daily basis. 

So unless TFP has lived in other areas for extended periods I think his ideas of socialite are colored by his life experience in his current area. 

 

OP basically described his wife as someone who was math deficient and couldn’t spell. I wouldn’t want her teaching my children, and can only feel sorry for hers.

You may be surprised.  Utah Valley is a very good place to raise a family, but many of the same difficulties are in Utah Valley and Utah itself as any other place in the US.  There are areas of abject poverty in Utah and especially Utah Valley.  Around the colleges and University, there are even starving students still, just like anywhere else.  There are many homes where both parents work, and daycare is a booming business in Utah. 

The thing that makes Utah Valley and Utah itself a great place though, and different (so I agree, there are differences, but I'd also say that people in Utah can understand the world and what goes on with it) is that there is a HUGE amount of the population that is dedicated to following the commandments of the Lord.  Their influence can help encourage each other to stay firm in the faith as well as staying true to the Lord. 

There is sin, and there are those that advocate for it.  Salt Lake City is the center of a large number of wonderful Mormons.  At the same time, it has been known for years as one of the centers of the LGBT movement, and a great deal of temptation and advocates of sin reside in the major metropolises. 

There are many Mormons who have served missions, and most of them were in areas of the World (and the United States) where the LDS church is not strong.  They spent two years with those who thought and acted differently.  We also have MANY families that have been in the rest of the world and experienced it personally.  Some of these people moved to Utah because they find strength in solidarity where there are enough LDS members that you can see their influence at schools and work and experience a more unifying experience where it is safe to express your beliefs.

I have family that is not from Utah and not from Utah and I go to see them as often as possible.  I also have at least three kids that live in Utah currently and I'd say they have a good knowledge of what goes on in the rest of the world.  I have family ranging from San Francisco, California to Dusseldorf, Germany.  I know many Utahns (and also Idahoans for that matter) that go to many different portions of the world regularly and spend a lot of time there. 

My PERSONAL thoughts are that just because one is from Saratoga Springs (or Sandy, Utah, or Midvale, Utah, or Rexburg Idaho or anywhere else where many Mormons may reside) does not discount their personal experiences and knowledge of the world.

These are my personal thoughts on the matter, which may not coincide with others.

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37 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Carb, I'm not sure if this is related to your situation with your wife.  I'm gonna share it to see if maybe this rings some bells.

My wife's math difficulties are a combination of many factors.  Some of it due to her mother's teaching style.  Some of it her own phobias which wouldn't be any different if she went to public school.  And some of it was the teaching style of her public school teachers and many other influences.

One example was that when we were starting multiplication tables, I took a piece of lego that was 4x8 and indicated that 4x8=32.  So, this board has 32 pips on it.  Now if I rotate it, the board is 8x4.  But the number of pips doesn't change just because I rotated the board.  When my wife was listening in, she began to cry.

This was the first time anyone had explained multiplication to her in such a way as to understand what the 4 and the 8 were and why it didn't matter which order the multiplication was.  It still ended up as 32.  She asked,"Why didn't anyone ever tell me that before?"  I thought, either you didn't ask, or they didn't really know either.  They just accepted it and therefore, couldn't explain it.  (That was both public and home school).

My other daughter was confused by the different methods of showing division.  There's the horizontal bar with a dot above and below.  There's the division radical.  And there's the fraction bar.  Why three different methods?  This bothered her so much that she never really understood division.  She also didn't get the idea of f(x).  No one in public or home school had ever explained it.  

I simply gave her an analogy with cooking.  Then she lit up.

Another thing is that there is a difference between a "regular" person who learns math by rote, and a "math genius".  I'm not talking about a savant.  That's a different animal.  But there is a way math geniuses see numbers and the relationship of numbers with other numbers and the fluidity of the operators and the morphing of numbers and figures before their eyes.  When I really got to working with my daughter side by side, I realized she was a math genius.  She made all kinds of mistakes.  But they were the mistakes of a genius.  A "normal" person would not make these types of mistakes.  She did.  So, I'm guiding her.  If she went to public school she'd get no more benefit in math than by learning from my wife.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

To set the record straight:

1) She really does have terrible spelling skills.  I said they were the worst I've ever seen.  But I just realized that Traveler's skills are worse.  And I don't think anyone here would call him an ignoramus.

2) She has had bad math skills.  But she's been improving.  Today she's at a level that is fairly average for a high school graduate.  It's just that I was in advanced classes since 4th grade.  So, my math skills are that much more beyond hers.  

3) Her strength is mainly that she's read A  LOT.  She's read all kinds of classics.  She's also highly well read in politics, economics, sociology, history, etc.  In my mind, this makes her terribly well informed on a LOT of topics.  And her judgment is sound in almost everything she chooses.

4) She's also quite the biologist.  That's what she specialized in.  She has weaknesses in chemistry and physics.  But guess who she knows that is quite well versed in chemistry and physics?

5) In spite of all these weaknesses, she spent her junior and senior year of high school in public school.  She graduated with straight A's.  So, I'm not sure if her failings in academics is a good argument to choose public schooling as a "better" academic environment.

When I was on the other side of the argument, one of my primary misgivings on the subject was that I didn't think she was qualified to teach our children.  And I fully understand others not accepting that situation either.  But that's not the whole story.  My wife may not have the best spelling skills.  But because she knows this about herself, she does not trust herself to check spelling.  So, she uses the dictionary and spelling lists published by reliable sources.

The effect has been to encourage the children to look things up rather than depend on their mother for all knowledge.  My oldest son has taken to reading the dictionary for leisure.   Don't ask how that happened.  I don't know.  When they ask me questions nowadays, my first question is,"Did you look it up?  And what did it say?"  Then I only get involved if they have already looked it up, but the explanation has some incongruity in it.

So, there is actually a benefit in her not being quite as well educated.  It teaches the children how to look up information and how to determine if a source is reliable or not.

The danger is if you do what my parents did.  If they didn't know, they just made something up.  I'm still repeating things my parents told me only to find out that they were wrong all this time.

NOTE: Up until 3rd grade, I was in remedial education.  Yeah.  That's right.  Remedial.  And for some reason, in 4th grade I magically went into advanced education.  Whaddup?  I'm still not sure what the deal was.  I had thought it was because of my language skills.  But my family and friends all told me that I spoke like any other American child my age.

Seriously. Have these people never heard of the internet? Or word processors?

Spelling?!

Dictionaries?

:D

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Seriously. Have these people never heard of the internet? Or word processors?

Spelling?!

Dictionaries?

:D

Quote

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a quay and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
It's rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
It's letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

 

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24 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

My PERSONAL thoughts are that just because one is from Saratoga Springs (or Sandy, Utah, or Midvale, Utah, or Rexburg Idaho or anywhere else where many Mormons may reside) does not discount their personal experiences and knowledge of the world.

More importantly...let's just say I had never left Utah Valley and had no personal experience with how the rest of the world lived. Would that really have any bearing on the logic of whether to home school or not?

@mrmarklin is simply attempting to condescend in order to dismiss things he does not agree with. It falls wildly flat on both the count that it is a logical fallacy and on the fact that where I currently live is irrelevant to what my life experience and understanding may be.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

My wife's math difficulties are a combination of many factors.  Some of it due to her mother's teaching style.  Some of it her own phobias which wouldn't be any different if she went to public school.  And some of it was the teaching style of her public school teachers and many other influences.

One example was that when we were starting multiplication tables, I took a piece of lego that was 4x8 and indicated that 4x8=32.  So, this board has 32 pips on it.  Now if I rotate it, the board is 8x4.  But the number of pips doesn't change just because I rotated the board.  When my wife was listening in, she began to cry.

This was the first time anyone had explained multiplication to her in such a way as to understand what the 4 and the 8 were and why it didn't matter which order the multiplication was.  It still ended up as 32.  She asked,"Why didn't anyone ever tell me that before?"  I thought, either you didn't ask, or they didn't really know either.  They just accepted it and therefore, couldn't explain it.  (That was both public and home school).

My other daughter was confused by the different methods of showing division.  There's the horizontal bar with a dot above and below.  There's the division radical.  And there's the fraction bar.  Why three different methods?  This bothered her so much that she never really understood division.  She also didn't get the idea of f(x).  No one in public or home school had ever explained it.  

I simply gave her an analogy with cooking.  Then she lit up.

Another thing is that there is a difference between a "regular" person who learns math by rote, and a "math genius".  I'm not talking about a savant.  That's a different animal.  But there is a way math geniuses see numbers and the relationship of numbers with other numbers and the fluidity of the operators and the morphing of numbers and figures before their eyes.  When I really got to working with my daughter side by side, I realized she was a math genius.  She made all kinds of mistakes.  But they were the mistakes of a genius.  A "normal" person would not make these types of mistakes.  She did.  So, I'm guiding her.  If she went to public school she'd get no more benefit in math than by learning from my wife.

Regardless of the teaching method - public school, private school, homeschool, etc. etc. - if Math (or anything for that matter) is taught by teaching to a certain way that benefits the majority of students, it always will leave behind the subset of students whose brain functions differently.  I grew up learning different methods of math - that was just the way it was taught at my school.  I learned the "classic math" in math class and what is known these days as "common core math" among other methods (including invented ones - I still remember how to do finger multiplication) in a subject called numerical methods (another math class).  But that teaching wasn't designed for different brain types, rather, it was designed for different math applications.  For example - doing pen-and-paper math is totally different than doing mental math.  Doing mental math using pen-and-paper method is highly inefficient while at the same time, doing pen-and-paper math using mental math method is also highly inefficient.  You really see how this applies during Math Meets - when there are times that mental math is efficient and there are times when you break out your pen and paper and the objective is just to get that answer out in the fastest time possible in whatever method you find suitable to win that gold medal. 

But, like learning the piano, you always start with Baroque and progress to Classical and Romantic, etc... math also always start with the "classic math" methods then you progress to numerical methods - different ways of tackling the same problem in different applications.  That's what was missing with the "current mandated curriculum" handed down from on high in the Public School my kid went to.  As the standard Public School only taught Common Core at the time (they finally got rid of that this year), I supplemented that instruction with classic math and other numerical methods at home.  I knew to do this because I learned this in school.  But, if I didn't know this, regardless of whether I homeschool or sent kids to public school, this would still be a deficiency in my children's math instruction unless they learn them for themselves on their own.  I see all these common core complaints on Facebook all the time and the parents complain because they think it's stupid.  And I'm like... uhm, it's not stupid, it's just another way to do math.  It doesn't eradicate the need for the child to learn other methods, and if classic math is taught and not the methods taught with common core, then you still have to supplement your child's learning.   The Public School Montessori did not follow the standard curriculum.  They simply had to get a good rating on the State Assessments (which is not a Montessori method, but it's a good compromise).  So the Montessori taught math through self-discovery which is adaptable to each individual student's learning style.  And this is in a Public School setting.

And that's where Montessori method is superior - applicable to public or home school or other types of schools - it is completely geared towards self-discovery so it is not impeded by a teaching method that does not align with the child's learning style or its practical application.  So, your child being a math genius in Montessori would more likely learn math the way her brain "sees math" and that learning would change and get added upon as she starts facing different real world problems requiring solutions.  The Montessori facilitator (and the Montessori classroom) simply places all kinds of problems or games or interesting things and tools and resources within reach of the student.  The student figures out how to solve the problem or game and learns everything there is to know about the interesting things through self-discovery.  The mentor (older kids in the classroom) shows them how they solved the problem - but the child is not tied to that method, they can figure it out a different way as long as their method is sound and arrive at the correct answer.  The teacher is a facilitator - she doesn't teach in the traditional teacher/student interaction as the learning happens by self-discovery.  The teacher can act as a mentor in the absence of older kids in the classroom but the teacher's main job is simply to make sure children are engaged in good activities and resources and tools for learning are available - the Public School has the twist of teachers making sure that children place the state assessment topics in their learning list and then grades their achievements in said topics.  So the teacher doesn't have to know different methods each child in her class uses to arrive at solutions.  And she doesn't even have to really know much of anything as long as she can pique the child's interest in learning.

Anyway, I can wax on and on about Montessori.  It was a really awesome experience for both my child and I - as I also learned what Montessori was all about.  By the way, not all Montessori schools are created equal... some private Montessori schools are purists.  They send your kid home if they wear superhero tshirts or bring disney princess lunchboxes and the like - "this is not fantasy land".  The cool thing about it though is that it is super easily incorporated into home schools.

Edited by anatess2
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23 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

So, mrmarklin, has any of the data I produced, or any of the personal anecdotes we've shared, had any impact in your view of homeschooling?

I think I’ve stated I’m somewhat agnostic on the subject. 

If I lived in an area with crap schools and no acceptable private ones, I’d certainly consider the home school option. 

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Can I say that I know very little about private (or charter) schools and have therefore been conscientious about not saying anything about them because they are outside the dichotomy.  .  The reputation is pretty good.  But I've never seen any statistics.

One of the most well educated and just plain smartest peeople I've ever met was a man who was raised in a Catholic school.  Also, my high school English teacher whom I rave about so often was also trained in a Catholic school.

Pretty good anecdotal evidence.

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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

More importantly...let's just say I had never left Utah Valley and had no personal experience with how the rest of the world lived. Would that really have any bearing on the logic of whether to home school or not?

@mrmarklin is simply attempting to condescend in order to dismiss things he does not agree with. It falls wildly flat on both the count that it is a logical fallacy and on the fact that where I currently live is irrelevant to what my life experience and understanding may be.

I went on a tour of Israel in 2015 with a group whose members were largely from Utah Valley. Without getting into specifics, these people, while being quite admirable, and knowledgeable, were as different from this California born and raised and still living there person, as chalk and cheese.  

Many missionaries that are from Utah here in SF Bay Area consider that they are almost on a foreign mission.   Their words, not mine  

The world is very different outside the Utah Valley  

 

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24 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I went on a tour of Israel in 2015 with a group whose members were largely from Utah Valley. Without getting into specifics, these people, while being quite admirable, and knowledgeable, were as different from this California born and raised and still living there person, as chalk and cheese.  

Many missionaries that are from Utah here in SF Bay Area consider that they are almost on a foreign mission.   Their words, not mine  

The world is very different outside the Utah Valley  

 

Okay. Thanks for sharing that information. It was very useful-less.

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8 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Just to be clear, my "thanks" was the best way I know of giving you a trophy.

To be perfectly clear - that was NOT my poem.  It's one I've seen floating around the internet for years, perhaps more than a decade.

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