Repentance after death

[oklds]

On 4/6/2018 at 8:53 PM, bytebear said:

Why do people live unhealthy lifestyles, even though they know what to do to be healthy?

Because root beer floats taste better with cheeseburgers and fries than just plain root beer.

[The Folk Prophet]

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens." Joseph Smith

[Vort]

1 hour ago, oklds said:

Because root beer floats taste better with cheeseburgers and fries than just plain root beer.

Interesting. I must confess I've never tried that before. I always make my root beer floats with ice cream.

[Traveler]

32 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens." Joseph Smith

 

Is it possible that regardless of what blessing or maledictions (heaven or even hell) anyone receives beyond death and the resurrection (or of light or darkness for those that will never be resurrected) – that they will still remain subject to the rules, laws, justice and authority of G-d?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

38 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

“‘But,’ says one, ‘I believe in one universal heaven and hell, where all go, and are all alike, and equally miserable or equally happy.’

“What! where all are huddled together—the honorable, virtuous, and murderers, and whoremongers, when it is written that they shall be judged according to the deeds done in the body? But St. Paul informs us of three glories and three heavens." Joseph Smith

So, do you think there are whoremongers in heaven?

[The Folk Prophet]

50 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Is it possible that regardless of what blessing or maledictions (heaven or even hell) anyone receives beyond death and the resurrection (or of light or darkness for those that will never be resurrected) – that they will still remain subject to the rules, laws, justice and authority of G-d?

 

The Traveler

I expect so.

[Rob Osborn]

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor uncleanperson, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:5)

[Traveler]

49 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor uncleanperson, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:5)

 

How do you personally interpret this scripture you are quoting?   Do you believe that whoremongers, unclean persons or covetous individuals after the resurrection and final judgment are no longer subject to any of the rules, laws, justice or authority of G-d?

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

How do you personally interpret this scripture you are quoting?   Do you believe that whoremongers, unclean persons or covetous individuals after the resurrection and final judgment are no longer subject to any of the rules, laws, justice or authority of G-d?

 

The Traveler

I am interpreting this scripture exactly like it reads. No unclean person can be saved. Thats why I brought it up- was Joseph Smiths words in reference to the idea that whoremongers would be in heaven somewhere?

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I am interpreting this scripture exactly like it reads. No unclean person can be saved. Thats why I brought it up- was Joseph Smiths words in reference to the idea that whoremongers would be in heaven somewhere?

 

I would point out that you are not interperting this scripture exactly like it reads.  For example: niether the word "saved" nor "heaven" were exactly included.  I also assume that since you are quoting in English that you do not understand the original text but rely on (non-ordained) scribes not called as was Aaron to supply your English text (as I do).  I would ask this because you seem to be critical of those (thought well studied) that make efforts to give their opinions.

My question is if you believe that any, once spiritual child of G-d, will at any time (especially after the final judgment) not be subject to rules, laws, justice or authority of G-d?  If you do not understand the question - please feel free to ask me for further clarificiation - since I am the one that asked it.

 

The Traveler

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would point out that you are not interperting this scripture exactly like it reads.  For example: niether the word "saved" nor "heaven" were exactly included.  I also assume that since you are quoting in English that you do not understand the original text but rely on (non-ordained) scribes not called as was Aaron to supply your English text (as I do).  I would ask this because you seem to be critical of those (thought well studied) that make efforts to give their opinions.

My question is if you believe that any, once spiritual child of G-d, will at any time (especially after the final judgment) not be subject to rules, laws, justice or authority of G-d?  If you do not understand the question - please feel free to ask me for further clarificiation - since I am the one that asked it.

 

The Traveler

You are going to have to clarify. It appears we are talkibg about two different things.

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, do you think there are whoremongers in heaven?

So you still refuse to believe that individuals spoken of in D&C 76 verse 106, (those whose sufferings for sin eventually come to an end with the arrival of the “the fulness of times”) are not the same individuals spoken of in verse 103? Let’s us see...

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 76)

I have 2 very reasonable and logical questions for you:

1) Since the above four quoted verses repeat the phrase “these are they” four consecutive times, where is the break in the repeating narrative between verse 103 and verse 106 that lets us know the individuals spoken of in verse 106 are not the same individuals spoken of in verse 103?

2) If the individuals spoken of in verse 106 are not the same individuals spoken of in verse 103, then who are they?

 

 

[Vort]

@Jersey Boy is right in that Section 76 very clearly teaches that the telestial kingdom -- a kingdom of glory -- is the abode of those who were liars, whoremongers, adulterers, etc. during their mortal probation. @Rob Osborn is right in the sense that those wicked sinners will not be sinners any more when they receive their inheritance, having repented and been washed clean through the blood of the Lamb. But they will not inherit eternal life, the greatest of God's gifts, because they will not be able (or even willing) to live in such a state.

[Rob Osborn]

44 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Jersey Boy is right in that Section 76 very clearly teaches that the telestial kingdom -- a kingdom of glory -- is the abode of those who were liars, whoremongers, adulterers, etc. during their mortal probation. @Rob Osborn is right in the sense that those wicked sinners will not be sinners any more when they receive their inheritance, having repented and been washed clean through the blood of the Lamb. But they will not inherit eternal life, the greatest of God's gifts, because they will not be able (or even willing) to live in such a state.

Well, except that all those saved from hell actually receive eternal life. This is the crux of the argument. 

If they "were" the whoremongers, etc, then why are they referred to in a present tense?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

So you still refuse to believe that individuals spoken of in D&C 76 verse 106, (those whose sufferings for sin eventually come to an end with the arrival of the “the fulness of times”) are not the same individuals spoken of in verse 103? Let’s us see...

103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.

105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; (D&C 76)

I have 2 very reasonable and logical questions for you:

1) Since the above four quoted verses repeat the phrase “these are they” four consecutive times, where is the break in the repeating narrative between verse 103 and verse 106 that lets us know the individuals spoken of in verse 106 are not the same individuals spoken of in verse 103?

2) If the individuals spoken of in verse 106 are not the same individuals spoken of in verse 103, then who are they?

 

 

Im not seeing how in verse 106 they repent.

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not seeing how in verse 106 they repent.

Because the context is those who inherit the kingdom of glory known as the telestial kingdom.

[Jersey Boy]

19 minutes ago, Vort said:

@Jersey Boy is right in that Section 76 very clearly teaches that the telestial kingdom -- a kingdom of glory -- is the abode of those who were liars, whoremongers, adulterers, etc. during their mortal probation. @Rob Osborn is right in the sense that those wicked sinners will not be sinners any more when they receive their inheritance, having repented and been washed clean through the blood of the Lamb. But they will not inherit eternal life, the greatest of God's gifts, because they will not be able (or even willing) to live in such a state.

Correct. I’ll now discuss just one of the areas where Rob has made a doctrinal error: Rob misreads D&C 76, verse 103, mistakenly believing the liars and whoremongers spoken of in that verse are going to end up as sons of perdition in outer darkness forever, and he makes this mistake because he fails to realize that the succeeding verses explain that the wicked individuals spoken of in verse 103 are exposed to a divine redemptive process — I.e. the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God — designed by the God of love to eventually bring such rebellious people down into the depths of humility and to eventual sincere repentance.

By suffering the wrath of God on earth, and thereafter being thrust into hell (the spirit prison) where the wicked individuals of verse 103 suffer for their own sins without mitigation, they learn mercy cannot quench divine justice without coming unto God. The agonizing experience of suffering for their own sins will continue until it’s deemed that the time is right for them to be taught the gospel of Christ by authorized and empowered missionaries who are sent from paradise carrying the message of God’s love and mercy. The acute spiritual and emotional suffering endured in the spirit prison will eventually cause the vast majority these formerly  wicked and rebellious souls to feel real remorse and deep regret for their ungodliness, which manifestations of godly sorrow are calculated to cause the hard-to-reach  to realize they desperately need the Savior and the blessings his infinite and eternal atonement if they are to ever going to have a hope of obtaining relief suffering, peace of conscience and genuine happiness.

After these formerly wicked and rebellious souls accept Christ and receive his salvation, they are blessed to enter the Telestial Kingdom of post-resurrection glory, and they are thus relegated because they were unwise and had to be compelled to be humble before they were able to develop an active moral conscience and thereby sincerely repent.

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit. (D&C 19)

[Jersey Boy]

54 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im not seeing how in verse 106 they repent.

So now you acknowledge verse 106 is speaking of those in verse 103. Good, now we’re getting somewhere! 

The reason why we know they repent is because while the suffering of the sons of perdition never comes to an end, those in verses 103 through verse 106 suffer only  “UNTIL” the arrival at that point in time known as... 

“the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.”

The reason why the sufferings of those in verses 103 to 106 continue for only a limited period of time is because they are numbered among those who have been “subdued” by the salvative work of Christ while they were consigned to the spirit prison. While in the spirit prison, these formerly wicked and rebellious souls finally awake from the sleep of death.

Remember, nowhere in the standard works does it say that the sons of perdition will suffer only for a limited period of time. Meanwhile, verse 106 says those spoken of in verses 103 to 106 will only have to suffer “UNTIL” the arrival of “the fulness of times.” Look up the word “until” in the dictionary and see what you find?

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

So now you acknowledge verse 106 is speaking of those in verse 103. Good, now we’re getting somewhere! 

The reason why we know they repent is because while the suffering of the sons of perdition never comes to an end, those in verses 103 through verse 106 suffer only  “UNTIL” the arrival at that point in time known as... 

“the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work.”

The reason why the sufferings of those in verses 103 to 106 continue for only a limited period of time is because they are numbered among those who have been “subdued” by the salvative work of Christ while they were consigned to the spirit prison. While in the spirit prison, these formerly wicked and rebellious souls finally awake from the sleep of death.

Remember, nowhere in the standard works does it say that the sons of perdition will suffer only for a limited period of time. Meanwhile, verse 106 says those spoken of in verses 103 to 106 will only have to suffer “UNTIL” the arrival of “the fulness of times.” Look up the word “until” in the dictionary and see what you find?

They suffer until they are resurrected and brought before God in judgment. Then, if they are found guilty they are cast out and die again to things of righteousness. I believe that this scripture deals with this-

12 Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.
            13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death.
            14 And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still. (Mormon 9:12-14)

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Correct. I’ll now discuss just one of the areas where Rob has made a doctrinal error: Rob misreads D&C 76, verse 103, mistakenly believing the liars and whoremongers spoken of in that verse are going to end up as sons of perdition in outer darkness forever, and he makes this mistake because he fails to realize that the succeeding verses explain that the wicked individuals spoken of in verse 103 are exposed to a divine redemptive process — I.e. the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God — designed by the God of love to eventually bring such rebellious people down into the depths of humility and to eventual sincere repentance.

By suffering the wrath of God on earth, and thereafter being thrust into hell (the spirit prison) where the wicked individuals of verse 103 suffer for their own sins without mitigation, they learn mercy cannot quench divine justice without coming unto God. The agonizing experience of suffering for their own sins will continue until it’s deemed that the time is right for them to be taught the gospel of Christ by authorized and empowered missionaries who are sent from paradise carrying the message of God’s love and mercy. The acute spiritual and emotional suffering endured in the spirit prison will eventually cause the vast majority these formerly  wicked and rebellious souls to feel real remorse and deep regret for their ungodliness, which manifestations of godly sorrow are calculated to cause the hard-to-reach  to realize they desperately need the Savior and the blessings his infinite and eternal atonement if they are to ever going to have a hope of obtaining relief suffering, peace of conscience and genuine happiness.

After these formerly wicked and rebellious souls accept Christ and receive his salvation, they are blessed to enter the Telestial Kingdom of post-resurrection glory, and they are thus relegated because they were unwise and had to be compelled to be humble before they were able to develop an active moral conscience and thereby sincerely repent.

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit. (D&C 19)

I find it interesting that in verse 103 of section 76 that it speaks of them as if in their present state or the state they shall be called at that day. We know that a repentant whoremonger can make it to the celestial kingdom. So then, why arent some of the celestial called whoremongers? Its because they repent. Thus, these spoken of in verse 103 obviously do not repent. If they did it would have used the word "were". It would have read like this-

"103 These are they who were liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

But no, it doesnt use that language. And because we know even the celestial can have repentant whoremongers, liars, etc, this doesnt mean "all" who "were" classified as such in part or all of their mortal lives. Thus we can determine rather factually that verse 103 is making a statement of their current status in the telestial kingdom or state they will be called at judgment. Thus they are unrepentant at judgment having not accepted the gospel in spirit prison. Thus they come forth in the resurrection of damnation/ resurrection of the unjust, and remain "filthy still" not being justified through Christ unto the cleansing of their souls. It is precisely according to this principle they cannot be saved and, like the scriptures state, must go into the second death. This is why the scriptures state the whoremongers, liars, etc, have their part in the second death. The second death comes only after resurrection and judgment and comes only to the sons of perdition.

The bottom line here is that those spoken of in verse 103 are definitly not repentant at judgment. It is why, when Joseph and Sidney are shown the vision of the inhabitants of the telestial world, that the angel says that this particular group are they who "are" whoremongers, liars, etc. Otherwise the angel would have said they "were".

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Because the context is those who inherit the kingdom of glory known as the telestial kingdom.

I believe the church doctrine on this is quite fuzzy. I havent ever found any official church teaching that states the telestial repent and are baptized which is the only process whereby man can be forgiven his sins and cleansed.

[The Folk Prophet]

Every man lives for himself. Adam was made to open the way of the world, and for dressing the garden. Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood; and the Son of God came into the world to redeem it from the fall. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This eternal truth settles the question of all men's religion. A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. He may receive a glory like unto the moon, [i.e., of which the light of the moon is typical], or a star, [i.e., of which the light of the stars is typical], but he can never come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, unless he becomes as a little child, and is taught by the Spirit of God. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.12) 

The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws.

Each kingdom, of course, is governed by laws. We have nothing to do with the laws of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, so far as the preaching of the gospel is concerned. Our mission is to preach the salvation of the kingdom of God, where he and Christ dwell, which is the celestial kingdom. And all of the principles of the gospel which have been given unto us pertain to the celestial kingdom. (Joseph Fielding Smith - Doctrines of Salvation, 2:25-26) 

[The Folk Prophet]

More from Joseph Fielding Smith

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

More from Joseph Fielding Smith

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: "We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

Not to sound like a broken record but...How then are they cleansed from all their sins?

[Rob Osborn]

Besides that, section 138 is pretty doggone clear that repentance and vicarious baptism is the method whereby the wicked in spirit prison are cleansed.