Repentance after death

[zil]

Damnation

Quote

As used in the KJV this word has a wider meaning than is at once apparent from modern usage. Damnation is the opposite of salvation and exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges and hence be damned to that extent. See Matt. 23:14, 33; Mark 3:29; 16:16; John 5:29; Rom. 13:2; 1 Cor. 11:29; 2 Ne. 9:24; 3 Ne. 18:28–29; D&C 58:26–29; 84:74; 112:29; 132:4, 6, 27.

To be damned sounds like being in hell to me.  Thus, two kingdoms (and perhaps even 2/3s of one) constitute both salvation and damnation at the same time.  One kingdom is all damnation and one is all exaltation.  David the poet likely used all kinds of figurative language in expressing his thoughts - "lowest hell" might simply have been poetic.  But it might also be his way of saying that he was saved from spirit prison and/or perdition.

I'm certain I've heard prophets / apostles express the bolded idea, but I'm not in a place to do an easy search right now, nor do I feel the need as the idea is already accepted or rejected, regardless of who says what.

[Rob Osborn]

42 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Perhaps if I ask a different question - When the spirit testifies concerning a matter; is it 100% accurate?  Always?  And does accurate include complete?

 

The Traveler

The spirit always testifues of truth. Our perception or ability to comprehend it or interpret it may not always be accurate.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Damnation

To be damned sounds like being in hell to me.  Thus, two kingdoms (and perhaps even 2/3s of one) constitute both salvation and damnation at the same time.  One kingdom is all damnation and one is all exaltation.  David the poet likely used all kinds of figurative language in expressing his thoughts - "lowest hell" might simply have been poetic.  But it might also be his way of saying that he was saved from spirit prison and/or perdition.

I'm certain I've heard prophets / apostles express the bolded idea, but I'm not in a place to do an easy search right now, nor do I feel the need as the idea is already accepted or rejected, regardless of who says what.

I particularly liked the Mt. 23:14 citation since it speaks of a "greater damnation," which shifts from a binary perspective to a range or spectrum, without negating the truth of the binary. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

Edited April 23, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I particularly liked the Mt. 23:14 citation since it speaks of a "greater damnation," which shifts from a binary perspective to a range or spectrum, without negating the truth of the binary. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

It doesnt shift at all. Damnation is still damnation. Its the same as going to prison- even though two inmates may be locked in the same cell in the same prison, one may have a longer sentence, and thus the greater judgment, than the other with a lighter sentence. This is what the scripture means- the duration of time one will be condemned to spirit prison to pay the penalty placed upon them will be longer than another. This is what Christ means when he says ye sinners stay until I call again.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, zil said:

To be damned sounds like being in hell to me

Yes, yes, yes. Correct, correct, correct. Ding, ding, ding! Damnation always means to be condemned to hell.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

I do believe in the old light dichotomy of damned and saved, though not in a strict sense, since that would deny new light and knowledge.

There is no luck needed in grasping the dichotomous separation between left and right hands in elevated ways along a spectrum.  Life is full of such things--at least to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. For example, here is a group of people on Christs left and right: One can imagine the population of the earth similarly arrayed beneath his feet.

Yes, as well as the vengeance of the eternal fires and wrath of the almighty God (vs 105-106), each "according to his own works, his own dominion [note the implication of range or spectrum] , in the mansions [note the non-binary plurality] which are prepared." (D&C 76:111)

I don't doubt it seems that way to the interpretive rigid and dogmatically binary mind.  However, to the nuanced-capable and those benefited by new light and knowledge, the hoops are non-existent and the paradigm work a gentle and comforting breeze--in Hebrew it is called ruwach, which is used in reference to the Holy Spirit..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Now, if I could just get you to understand that the second death only comes to the sons of perdition we may make some headway...

[wenglund]

4 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I particularly liked the Mt. 23:14 citation since it speaks of a "greater damnation," which shifts from a binary perspective to a range or spectrum, without negating the truth of the binary. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

It is reasonable to conclude that the "lower hell" of Ps 8613 consists of "greater damnation" mentioned in Mt. 23:14 , and thus a higher hell consists of lesser damnation., and vice versa when it comes to heaven. Hence, D&C76 illuminating Jn 5:29.

But, this will make the rigid binary mind explode.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

12 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It doesnt shift at all. Damnation is still damnation. 

Yes, and red is still red, even when mixed with varying degrees of white.

Which, to the comprehending mind, is a shift from this:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Now, if I could just get you to understand that the second death only comes to the sons of perdition we may make some headway...

Everyone already understands that, Rob. The second death is permanent spiritual banishment from God. The telestial kingdom is a kingdom of glory, meaning a kingdom of God. It is not spiritual death. But it is also not the habitation of heirs of eternal life, which is reserved for those worthy of a far more, and exceeding, and eternal weight of glory.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Everyone already understands that, Rob. The second death is permanent spiritual banishment from God. The telestial kingdom is a kingdom of glory, meaning a kingdom of God. It is not spiritual death. But it is also not the habitation of heirs of eternal life, which is reserved for those worthy of a far more, and exceeding, and eternal weight of glory.

So, are the telestial and terrestrial found on the left hand of God at judgment then?

[Rob Osborn]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes, and red is still red, even when mixed with varying degrees of white

This is just your way of saying God will save filthy sinners in heaven (actually thats evolved to mean "hell" now apparently) even though the scriptures speak otherwise.

[wenglund]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

This is just your way of saying God will save filthy sinners in heaven (actually thats evolved to mean "hell" now apparently) even though the scriptures speak otherwise.

It isn't my way of say that. I am simply echoing the words of the prophets in the scriptures (contrary to your errant assertion), like Mormon, who declared that all mankind will be saved (i.e. redeemed) from the grave, some to be filthy still, and others to be happy. (Morm. 9:11-14) And, given the other scriptures I quoted above, we (or at least those of us not nuance-challenged) can reasonably conclude that mankind will be saved to varying degrees of filthiness or cleanliness and happiness dependent upon their works.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Edited April 23, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

17 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

So, are the telestial and terrestrial found on the left hand of God at judgment then?

As illustrated above, yes, to varying degrees. And, to varying degrees they are also on his right. It is the extremes (Sons of Perdition vs Celestial Beings) that are strictly on his left or right, as D&C 76 makes clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[zil]

A perfect dog is still a dog.  A perfect tree is still a tree.  A perfect telestial being is still a telestial being.  There will be no flaw in them, but they will have discovered for themselves what God already knew - that they cannot handle (do not want) any glory beyond the telestial.  They will be as flawless as is necessary to be immortal (this is a necessary part of resurrection - nothing which is flawed can be immortal for the flaw will destroy it eventually), but they will not be exalted.  The means by which they obtain salvation and telestial glory is still Jesus Christ.  Only those who go away into perdition will receive nothing of Christ's atoning power - by their own choice.  That many choose to endure much suffering before they will turn to Christ does not mean they won't eventually have to bend the knee and confess.  That one eventually chooses to bend the knee and confess does not automatically make them worthy of exaltation.

Quote

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

It isn't my way of say that. I am simply echoing the words of the prophets in the scriptures (contrary to your errant assertion), like Mormon, who declared that all mankind will be saved (i.e. redeemed) from the grave, some to be filthy still, and others to be happy. (Morm. 9:11-14) And, given the other scriptures I quoted above, we (or at least those of us not nuance-challenged) can reasonably conclude that mankind will be saved to varying degrees of filthiness or cleanliness and happiness dependent upon their works.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Completely unscriptural. How can God possibly save someone who is still filthy? Even section 76 states that Christ cleanses all those he saves (everyone minus sons of perdition) from "all unrighteousness". Here-

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
            42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
            
            43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

As illustrated above, yes, to varying degrees. And, to varying degrees they are also on his right. It is the extremes (Sons of Perdition vs Celestial Beings) that are strictly on his left or right, as D&C 76 makes clear to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Again, completely unscriptural. Its very specific that there are only two groups. Those on the left are defined as the devil and his angels. They all go into the eternal hell- the lake of fire and brimstone ehich is the second death. Those on the right are the "righteous" who Christ saves- those he makes spotless and cleanses from all unrighteousness (to be cleansed from all unrighteousness means to become "righteous"). This group all go into etetnal life. There isnt any other group according to scripture. You are inventing other arms Christ somehow has where people get saved. You are inventing doctrine.

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The spirit always testifues of truth. Our perception or ability to comprehend it or interpret it may not always be accurate.

 

For the record - I do not believe this is an accurate statement concerning either the Power of the Holy Ghost or the influence the Holy Ghost has when testifying of things that are true.  I would agree with what you are saying concerning any other possible communication (including a testimony from either the Father or The Son) - the Holy Ghost is the exception and this is why denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin for which there is no repentance ever. 

 

The Traveler

Edited April 24, 2018 by Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

"We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c." https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/11/saturday-morning-session/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

The temple actually teaches that we now live in "the telestial kingdom" (exact wording).

I should have used the more accurate and generally used term “telestial earth” rather than the somewhat ambiguous term telestial world.

“This earth is to be renewed and brought back to the condition in which it was before it was cursed through the fall of Adam. When Adam passed out of the Garden of Eden, then the earth became a telestial world, and it is of that order today. I do not mean a telestial glory such as will be found in telestial worlds after their resurrection, but a telestial condition which has been from the days of Adam until now and will continue until Christ comes.” (Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation, 1:85)

There is a great difference between the fallen telestial earth and the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of heavenly glory. 

 

 

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

For the record - I do not believe this is an accurate statement concerning either the Power of the Holy Ghost or the influence the Holy Ghost has when testifying of things that are true.  I would agree with what you are saying concerning any other possible communication (including a testimony from either the Father or The Son) - the Holy Ghost is the exception and this is why denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin for which there is no repentance ever. 

 

The Traveler

I dont even know where you are going with this...

[Jersey Boy]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

"We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c." https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/11/saturday-morning-session/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

The temple actually teaches that we now live in "the telestial kingdom" (exact wording).

There is no way that you can square your idea that this fallen world is the same order and kind of telestial kingdom as the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants. In the following verses from D&C 88, the word “quickened” refers to the resurrection, and the context very clearly indicates that in the resurrection there will be three degrees of resurrected bodily glory and three distinct kingdoms of post-resurrection heavenly glory.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain (the sons of perdition) shall also be quickened (resurrected); nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. (D&C 88)

Please do note that in the resurrection there is not just one celestial glory given to all of who are saved. Rather, there are three degrees of glorious bodily resurrection and three degrees of glory in the post-resurrection heavenly mansions. 

Once again, I have demonstrated how the supposed contradictions that exist between the Book of Mormon’s and the Doctrine and Covenants’ presentations of the plan of salvation can be wonderfully reconciled and resolved without having to contradict the teachings of the modern prophets and apostles.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

46 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

I should have used the more accurate and generally used term “telestial earth” rather than the somewhat ambiguous term telestial world.

“This earth is to be renewed and brought back to the condition in which it was before it was cursed through the fall of Adam. When Adam passed out of the Garden of Eden, then the earth became a telestial world, and it is of that order today. I do not mean a telestial glory such as will be found in telestial worlds after their resurrection, but a telestial condition which has been from the days of Adam until now and will continue until Christ comes.” (Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation, 1:85)

There is a great difference between the fallen telestial earth and the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of heavenly glory. 

 

 

Im not so sure. We enjoy glory now. That is the glory of the Holy Ghost. During the Millennium it will increase in Glory to include the glory of the resurrected Jesus Christ.

[Rob Osborn]

6 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

There is no way that you can square your idea that this fallen world is the same order and kind of telestial kingdom as the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory spoken of in the Doctrine and Covenants. In the following verses from D&C 88, the word “quickened” refers to the resurrection, and the context very clearly indicates that in the resurrection there will be three degrees of resurrected bodily glory and three distinct kingdoms of post-resurrection heavenly glory.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain (the sons of perdition) shall also be quickened (resurrected); nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. (D&C 88)

Please do note that in the resurrection there is not just one celestial glory given to all of who are saved. Rather, there are three degrees of glorious bodily resurrection and three degrees of glory in the post-resurrection heavenly mansions. 

Once again, I have demonstrated how the supposed contradictions that exist between the Book of Mormon’s and the Doctrine and Covenants’ presentations of the plan of salvation can be wonderfully reconciled and resolved without having to contradict the teachings of the modern prophets and apostles.

 

 

Those spirits who have been resurrected to this point have done so with a telestisl glory as that is the glory of our earth now. Those resurrected at the beginning of the millennium will be resurrected with terrestrial glory. Those who were resurrected before will be quickened to terrestrial glory. Then at the end of the millennium all the righteous will be quickened/ resurrected to celestial glory.

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Completely unscriptural.

False. I cited the scripture. You obviously didn't read it, or found it incomprehensible. 

I get that you are incapable of seeing other than black and white. Thus, scriptural rainbows will invariable appear to you only as black and white. This is why it is a waste of time attempting to converse with you about new light and knowledge.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 24, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

37 minutes ago, wenglund said:

False. I cited the scripture. You obviously didn't read it, or found it incomprehensible. 

I get that you are incapable of seeing other than black and white. Thus, scriptural rainbows will invariable appear to you only as black and white. This is why it is a waste of time attempting to converse with you about new light and knowledge.

To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

But the scriptures you post are very black and white. You have to contrive these different shades in that dont exist. Its like the sheep and the goats analogy Christ uses. He sets his sheep on his right hand and states-

34" Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"

And to the sheep on his left he states-

41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:34,41)

 

For your paradigm to work there has to be some other animal, something besides a sheep or a goat. And, there has to be more than two hands. The three glories dont even figure into this as this is a foundational principle of Christs gospel. Therefore, it must be correct. You either have to admit that everyone is part of that group called the "sheep" who Christ calls "ye blessed of my Father" or the "goats" who Christ commands to depart which are the devil and his angels. I give you a hint- there arent any wicked heirs to salvation. Heirs of salvation all are accounted as "righteous" and receive eternal life. The "wicked" are all cast out into outer darkness. There is no scripture whatsoever that states Christ saves a wicked, or half wicked half righteous person from hell.

[Jersey Boy]

10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Those spirits who have been resurrected to this point have done so with a telestisl glory as that is the glory of our earth now. Those resurrected at the beginning of the millennium will be resurrected with terrestrial glory. Those who were resurrected before will be quickened to terrestrial glory. Then at the end of the millennium all the righteous will be quickened/ resurrected to celestial glory.

That’s not what these passages say and it’s not at all the way the apostles and prophets have always explained these verses. The word ‘quickened’ in these verses is referring the resurrection of the body into 3 degrees of glory and another state of resurrection of no glory.

You have been on this “everyone receives the celestial glory” hobby horse for years (about 5 or 6 years ago, I encountered you on another discussion board zealously propagating the same ideas) and you seem to love your “all the saved will obtain the same degree of post-resurrection glory” so much that it seems to have become an obsession. 

In some ways you can’t be blamed because you came to correctly realize that no one can be saved without coming unto Christ and receiving a remission of their sins though the atonement (you also correctly realize that no one can be considered to be saved and forgiven and at the same time be eternally consigned to a sort of hell). The problem is that you have gone one or two steps to far by insisting that God’s every mansion of post-resurrection salvation possesses the same degree of heavenly glory and spiritual capacitation — they do not...

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. (D&C 76)

Just because all the saved will be forgiven and bow the knee to the Father and confess that Jesus Christ is their Savior doesn’t mean that all will the saved receive the same degree of glory.

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. (D&C 132)

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Jersey Boy