Repentance after death


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6 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

A little background on Baal.  He was a demigod, the son of the supreme G-d El and a virgin female mortal.  El was a name for G-d recognized in ancient Hebrew scripture.  Baal was a Messianic character that arose in ancient Mesopotamia that became a popular worship in Egypt at the time of Moses.   There are many parallels to Jesus – like a new star in the heavens at his birth.  He had control over the weather and fought against Mot and Yamen to deliver the souls of human from death.  Interestingly the most popular means of worshiping Baal in ancient Egypt involved a golden calf – which is similar to the Hebrew Red Heifer sacrifice (of Messianic origins).

This is rather condensed but in essence Baal was a Messianic Gentile.  Ifind it interesting that you use this title to define your religious experience.

Now concerning wine.  Anciently in Israel, grapes were brought in bunches and placed in a large stone basin.  The grapes were walked on barefoot – this is because the human foot is padded and will gently press the best or new wine from the grapes.  When this process has removed the best wine then what is left is gathered into loose woven baskets which were stacked and pressed with weights removing most of the remaining juice which is wine but not the best or new wine.  What remains in the baskets is the skins, seeds and stems of the original grapes.  This is then placed in another donut shaped stone basin.  A large stone is rolled around the stone base (usually powered by a donkey) which crushes every last bit of liquid from the grape remains.  This final liquid is called bitter wine or vinegar.   The stone press that creates this bitter liquid is called gethsemane.

 

The Traveler

Fascinating!

Thank you immensely for this clarification!

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This has been very interesting and enlightening to hear others' understandings.

I understand:

1. Agency and accountability.  We cannot have choice without consequences.  Opposition in all things.

2. This life matters.  Today is the time to decide.  If it really does not matter when we decide why does mortal time exist, and why are we commanded to sacrifice and consecrate today to build and make and keep crucial covenants?!!!  This would defeat all the purpose of this second estate.

3. The Lord will be our final judge of what kingdom we merit (through our faith in His atonement).

4. I believe I have read from the prophets that we will be able to progress within the kingdom we merit.

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A few things to consider here-

1. The vast majority of souls who have ever walked this earth never truly heard the gospel to accept.

2. No one is perfect in mortality of which is required for the celestial glory.

3. No person can be saved from the eternal hell without repentance from "all sin". This means a change of heart from sin into righteousness.

4. We continue our March towards obedience and perfection in the next life.

Thus, I think it is best to understand that we still do not understand very much about progression and glory and how the saved all attain perfection.

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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

A few things to consider here-

1. The vast majority of souls who have ever walked this earth never truly heard the gospel to accept.

2. No one is perfect in mortality of which is required for the celestial glory.

3. No person can be saved from the eternal hell without repentance from "all sin". This means a change of heart from sin into righteousness.

4. We continue our March towards obedience and perfection in the next life.

Thus, I think it is best to understand that we still do not understand very much about progression and glory and how the saved all attain perfection.

It does seem that the only two things that one (everyone) must accomplish in this second estate (mortality) is:

#1. To obtain a physical body.

#2. To die.

Anything and everything else that actually matters, it would seem, can be accomplished outside the parameters of this second estate (mortality).  Why then should anything else be taught? or believed - assuming that it really does not matter?  At least in this mortal life.

 

The Traveler

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4 hours ago, pagina said:

This has been very interesting and enlightening to hear others' understandings.

I understand:

1. Agency and accountability.  We cannot have choice without consequences.  Opposition in all things.

2. This life matters.  Today is the time to decide.  If it really does not matter when we decide why does mortal time exist, and why are we commanded to sacrifice and consecrate today to build and make and keep crucial covenants?!!!  This would defeat all the purpose of this second estate.

3. The Lord will be our final judge of what kingdom we merit (through our faith in His atonement).

4. I believe I have read from the prophets that we will be able to progress within the kingdom we merit.

 

Just as a matter of principle - I know that #3 is often spoken of but I think there is a misunderstanding.  I believe that we are the first, middle and final judge that will determine what kingdom we merit or have accomplished.  I believe that the L-rd will do little more (beyond the atonement) than help us understand our agency and choice of the kingdom we have spend an eternity preparing for and working to obtain.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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God is God because He obeys Divine/Eternal Laws.  (I have heard the opinion expressed that the Lord and/or ourselves will choose which kingdom we receive).  Based on my gospel study, I believe, that we will merit the kingdom we receive based on our obedience; the first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord (and His atonement) -- that through our best efforts to obey Divine Law and accept His grace/mercy (through making and keeping covenants) we will receive our just reward. 

Each child will receive equal opportunity to enter into crucial covenants with the Lord; but we are repeatedly taught that we should never delay coming unto Christ because each choice good or bad comes with a consequence and we will be held accountable to the light and knowledge we receive.  Ultimately, I believe, our Father in Heaven wants each one of His children to return and live like Him, but ultimately, it is our choice whether we will follow the same Divine Laws that He is following.  I believe Sections 76 and 138 and the teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith shed great light on this topic.

Thank you for sharing your insights; it is good to learn from others.

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

It does seem that the only two things that one (everyone) must accomplish in this second estate (mortality) is:

#1. To obtain a physical body.

#2. To die.

Anything and everything else that actually matters, it would seem, can be accomplished outside the parameters of this second estate (mortality).  Why then should anything else be taught? or believed - assuming that it really does not matter?  At least in this mortal life.

 

The Traveler

It's all part of a journey of where we will end up going towards. Best to get on the path or keep on the path now

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25 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's all part of a journey of where we will end up going towards. Best to get on the path or keep on the path now

If we are having a discussion about what is necessary - one may notice that what is necessary has nothing to do with any choices in this life.  We are born (gain a physical body) and die regardless of what ever we think can choose.  If agency is true then in order for this life to be a choice of agency we would have to have made the choice before we were born.  In Christianity we LDS are the only ones that seem to understand this most important point.

Now we wonder if being on the path is all that important.  Actually I agree that it is but perhaps not for the same reason that many are thinking.  I like probing you - but your answers - I am not sure - at least not without more explanation.

 

The Traveler

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This is a topic I have studied intensely (everyday) for 1.5 years.  I believe from study and faith that we can know the mind and will of the Lord through witnesses (modern-day prophets and the Standard Works and personal revelation).  The Holy Ghost confirms the truth - but to know we are not being deceived we need to obey all three.

As the Handbook instructs I have had this doctrinal understanding confirmed by my Bishop and my stake president.

Thank you for your inquiry.

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

If we are having a discussion about what is necessary - one may notice that what is necessary has nothing to do with any choices in this life.  We are born (gain a physical body) and die regardless of what ever we think can choose.  If agency is true then in order for this life to be a choice of agency we would have to have made the choice before we were born.  In Christianity we LDS are the only ones that seem to understand this most important point.

Now we wonder if being on the path is all that important.  Actually I agree that it is but perhaps not for the same reason that many are thinking.  I like probing you - but your answers - I am not sure - at least not without more explanation.

 

The Traveler

One path leading to one place. The Nephites understood it very well. The dilemma for us is the false belief of multiple paths and multiple destinations for the faithful.

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10 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

One path leading to one place. The Nephites understood it very well. The dilemma for us is the false belief of multiple paths and multiple destinations for the faithful.

Which then, is the one path you speak of?  The path of obedience (older son) or the path of repentance (prodigal son)?

 

The Traveler

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5 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Which then, is the one path you speak of?  The path of obedience (older son) or the path of repentance (prodigal son)?

 

The Traveler

The vision of the tree of life Lehi saw is the one path. It's obedience to the gospel and holding fast to the iron rod leading to the tree of life. There is no other path leading to salvation. All other paths lead into perdition.

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5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The vision of the tree of life Lehi saw is the one path. It's obedience to the gospel and holding fast to the iron rod leading to the tree of life. There is no other path leading to salvation. All other paths lead into perdition.

Why then is repentance, when there has been disobedience, or another path allowed?  And taught?

 

The Traveler

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45 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Why then is repentance, when there has been disobedience, or another path allowed?  And taught?

 

The Traveler

There's only one path. Think of it like a freeway- there are entrances and exits. When we start life we are on the freeway traveling towards our destination. When we start to get older and sin it's like watching the billboards along the way distracting us and enticing us to exit. And so we exit, no longer traveling towards our destination, perhaps even getting lost. The gospel of repentance and baptism is like signs directing us back towards the freeway entrances. the entrances themselves along the way are like ordinances and covenants that allow us to get back on track on the freeway towards our destination. 

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On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:29 AM, Rob Osborn said:

There's only one path. Think of it like a freeway- there are entrances and exits. When we start life we are on the freeway traveling towards our destination. When we start to get older and sin it's like watching the billboards along the way distracting us and enticing us to exit. And so we exit, no longer traveling towards our destination, perhaps even getting lost. The gospel of repentance and baptism is like signs directing us back towards the freeway entrances. the entrances themselves along the way are like ordinances and covenants that allow us to get back on track on the freeway towards our destination. 

 

I can agree in part because I can tell you have studied.  However, I think there are elements missing from the paradigm you have created from you interpretation of scripture.  I agree obedience is an element of the way or path – so also is repentance but they are not the way or the path.

Someday – if you are interested we may deal with such things but for now, from your responses you seem quite happy with your understanding.  Not that I am the expert – but my view and understanding of “the way” (the iron rod) is somewhat different.

 

The Traveler

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14 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I can agree in part because I can tell you have studied.  However, I think there are elements missing from the paradigm you have created from you interpretation of scripture.  I agree obedience is an element of the way or path – so also is repentance but they are not the way or the path.

Someday – if you are interested we may deal with such things but for now, from your responses you seem quite happy with your understanding.  Not that I am the expert – but my view and understanding of “the way” (the iron rod) is somewhat different.

 

The Traveler

It's really quite simple- we are either followers and belivers of Christ and on the path or we are not.

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/6/2018 at 2:06 PM, Traveler said:

 

A little background on Baal.  He was a demigod, the son of the supreme G-d El and a virgin female mortal.  El was a name for G-d recognized in ancient Hebrew scripture.  Baal was a Messianic character that arose in ancient Mesopotamia that became a popular worship in Egypt at the time of Moses.   There are many parallels to Jesus – like a new star in the heavens at his birth.  He had control over the weather and fought against Mot and Yamen to deliver the souls of human from death.  Interestingly the most popular means of worshiping Baal in ancient Egypt involved a golden calf – which is similar to the Hebrew Red Heifer sacrifice (of Messianic origins).

This is rather condensed but in essence Baal was a Messianic Gentile.  Ifind it interesting that you use this title to define your religious experience.

Now concerning wine.  Anciently in Israel, grapes were brought in bunches and placed in a large stone basin.  The grapes were walked on barefoot – this is because the human foot is padded and will gently press the best or new wine from the grapes.  When this process has removed the best wine then what is left is gathered into loose woven baskets which were stacked and pressed with weights removing most of the remaining juice which is wine but not the best or new wine.  What remains in the baskets is the skins, seeds and stems of the original grapes.  This is then placed in another donut shaped stone basin.  A large stone is rolled around the stone base (usually powered by a donkey) which crushes every last bit of liquid from the grape remains.  This final liquid is called bitter wine or vinegar.   The stone press that creates this bitter liquid is called gethsemane.

 

The Traveler

Very interesting indeed.......

I have a rather different angle on who he may have been and I will try to get into my theory shortly...... but hint.... "Leda and the Swan!"

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On 4/6/2018 at 11:37 PM, Midwest LDS said:

Christ is merciful beyond our ability to comprehend. Even the vilest sinners in this life may, through His Grace and obedience to His commandments, be cleansed and made into a new man or woman. But the scriptures and prophets are clear, we must change in this life. Alma 34:32

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors."

Continuing on Alma explains exactly how important it is for us to repent now, and not wait, by illustrating the sad consequences of those who do wait. Alma 34:33-36.

            "33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
            34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
            35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

Now there are certainly things to be done in the Spirit World, see Wilford Woodruff's vision of Joseph Smith, and I'm sure we will continue to grow and progress there, but that description of "the night of darkness wherein no labor can be performed" in Alma 32:33 both terrifies and motivates me. It scares me to think of ending up in that eternal darkness, but at the same time it motivates me to put my trust in Christ now rather than trying to enjoy wickedness for a season, and hoping I will decide to repent later. 

 

Because you fundamentally misunderstand the meaning of the Book of Mormon expression “the day of this life,” your statement above is completely erroneous. Read the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 138, taking speacial note of the portions I place in bold, and then explain how to harmonize the prophet Joseph F Smith’s inspired words concerning the salvation of the dead with Alma’s words in Alma 34:33-36? Please note that Alma and President Joseph F Smith are both correct in their assertions, so your job is to find a way to harmonize the teachings of both prophets so they don’t appear to be diametrically opposed to each other. If you are unable to find a way to harmonize the teachings of both prophets, then I will explain it all to you in a way that proves Alma and President Smith are in perfect harmony with each other. I’ll give you a hint by letting you know the answer is found in D&C 138 verse 34.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138)

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I met a widow who had converted to the church several years back, her whole family did. The husband struggled with the word of wisdom and they never made it to the temple to be sealed. He would relapse and go on drinking binges. On one of those binges he accidentally drank too much and poisoned himself; he died. His wife, a faithful temple goer, was distraught. She wanted her family to be eternal. She continued serving in the church and going to the temple. After some time after her husband's death she asked the brethren if it was possible to sealed to her husband. They took her request and ran it through the appropriate authority. It was approved and the brethren sealed the couple for time and all eternity (through Proxy) The temple President even told her he felt the presence of her husband. How you may ask:  Why?  I thought the scriptures were clear?  They are. The Lord knows EVERYONE individually. He takes into account ALL things. Temple sealings are a safety net and you better believe that your righteousness DOES affect those around you. Especially your spouse.

Learn to have mercy and don't feel hurt like the righteous son in the parable of the prodigal son. He was ever faithful to his father and did the hard thing. He worked and toiled all the long days. He was wise and prudent with his inheritance. We remember what happened when the prodigal son came home and the righteous son found out.

25  Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26  And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27  And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28  And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.

29  And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30  But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31  And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32  It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found

If I could hug you all that have always been faithful I would. Don't feel robbed but rejoice in the joy or our Father. For His child was surely lost but now is found through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Plucked from the torment of hell because they chose to turn from their wickedness.  I have always felt bad for this righteous son. Being myself a sinner/repenter I have always felt my soul ache for this character in this parable. How even as he walked in from working the house was buzzing with music and celebration. I can imagine him after receiving the news from the servant looking down at his clothes and hands, worn with work. Smelling his own stench of the days sweat, in the moment of hurt that through his hard work a party was never thrown for him. Lift up your eyes and rejoice. For as the father in this parable came to the hurt son and assured him of his inheritance so does our Father do with the righteous. 

YOU WILL inherit ALL that our Father has for you and you will be prized throughout eternity by your posterity.  You will be loved and celebrated by those who are closest to you; your spouse and your children. 

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5 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Because you fundamentally misunderstand the meaning of the Book of Mormon expression “the day of this life,” your statement above is completely erroneous. Read the following verses from Doctrine and Covenants 138, taking speacial note of the portions I place in bold, and then explain how to harmonize the prophet Joseph F Smith’s inspired words concerning the salvation of the dead with Alma’s words in Alma 34:33-36? Please note that Alma and President Joseph F Smith are both correct in their assertions, so your job is to find a way to harmonize the teachings of both prophets so they don’t appear to be diametrically opposed to each other. If you are unable to find a way to harmonize the teachings of both prophets, then I will explain it all to you in a way that proves Alma and President Smith are in perfect harmony with each other. I’ll give you a hint by letting you know the answer is found in D&C 138 verse 34.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross. (D&C 138)

Somebody is feeling cranky today☺.  I did not fundamentally misunderstand the scriptures as I am aware of the gospel teaching that goes on in the spirit world. But my statement is true for those who already know the gospel this day is the time for us to prepare to meet God. I'm always happy to discuss things but please don't talk to me in a disrespectful manner.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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I think CS Lewis explained this conundrum of people choosing Hell when he wrote in his book The Great Divorce:

”In the end there will only be two types of people: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and to those whom God says, ‘Thy will be done.’ All who are in Hell have chosen it and without that same self choice there would be no Hell.”  

It is pride. The setting up of self as God. Pride is why Satan and his followers threw away glory because he wanted to be first. 

Sadly, many would prefer to, “reign in Hell” than to serve and be joyful in heaven.

Edited by warnerfranklin
Grammer
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I think Section 76 offers perspective on repentance after death:

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.

80 And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit.

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