Repentance after death


pam
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9 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

Somebody is feeling cranky today☺.  I did not fundamentally misunderstand the scriptures as I am aware of the gospel teaching that goes on in the spirit world. But my statement is true for those who already know the gospel this day is the time for us to prepare to meet God. I'm always happy to discuss things but please don't talk to me in a disrespectful manner.

You are mistaken again. Please carefully read the verses I posted from D&C 138 because they plainly contradict what you believe. The only way one can hold on to your interpretation of Alma 34 is to ignore the plain meaning of D&C 138. Do you believe D&C 138 contradicts  your understanding of Alma 34? If not, why not?

Pointing out when someone is in error is not being disrespectful. I’m very appreciative when someone points out when I’m wrong and can prove it.

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8 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

You are mistaken again. Please carefully read the verses I posted from D&C 138 because they plainly contradict what you believe. The only way one can hold on to your interpretation of Alma 34 is to ignore the plain meaning of D&C 138. Do you believe D&C 138 contradicts  your understanding of Alma 34? If not, why not?

Pointing out when someone is in error is not being disrespectful. I’m very appreciative when someone points out when I’m wrong and can prove it.

I don't believe what I said is contradictory at all. I apologize if no offense was intended, I don't mind if we disagree, you just came off as condescending to me. I understand how the Spirit world works. I know that millions, if not billions, who have died will have the oppportunity to repent. Especially, those who have not heard the gospel. But, I've read the scriptures you posted (many times over the course of my life) and I don't see anything that indicates we should not repent now. We know the truth and while some salvation in a lower kingdom is possible for us if we refuse to change in this life, to me at least, no matter how glorious salvation is in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms, it pales in comparison to the darkness of losing exaltation. I don't know who will have that chance to still be exalted if they die and refuse to repent in this life, and who won't, only God can judge that, but I'm not taking chances with my exaltation. You can wait until you die to repent if you want too, I'm going too now. 

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1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

I don't believe what I said is contradictory at all. I apologize if no offense was intended, I don't mind if we disagree, you just came off as condescending to me. I understand how the Spirit world works. I know that millions, if not billions, who have died will have the oppportunity to repent. Especially, those who have not heard the gospel. But, I've read the scriptures you posted (many times over the course of my life) and I don't see anything that indicates we should not repent now. We know the truth and while some salvation in a lower kingdom is possible for us if we refuse to change in this life, to me at least, no matter how glorious salvation is in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms, it pales in comparison to the darkness of losing exaltation. I don't know who will have that chance to still be exalted if they die and refuse to repent in this life, and who won't, only God can judge that, but I'm not taking chances with my exaltation. You can wait until you die to repent if you want too, I'm going too now. 

So It appears you don’t want to reread and address the specific doctrinal points made in D&C 138, so I’ll have to reiterate those points myself: If those who reject the gospel and the prophets while in the flesh have no chance to obtain exaltation in the celestial kingdom,, why does D&C 138 testify to the following:

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (D&C 138)

If you are correct, why are those spirits who died in their sins because they rejected the gospel message of the prophets of God while in the flesh taught  “faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and all other principles of the gospel necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh?” Joseph Smith taught that baptism pertains only to the celestial kingdom. If this is true, why are those who rejected the prophets and the gospel while in the flesh taught about the absolute need for baptism? Further, why are such spirits taught all of the other necessary gospel principles beyond baptism?

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

So It appears you don’t want to reread and address the specific doctrinal points made in D&C 138, so I’ll have to reiterate those points myself: If those who reject the gospel and the prophets while in the flesh have no chance to obtain exaltation in the celestial kingdom,, why does D&C 138 testify to the following:

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (D&C 138)

If you are correct, why are those spirits who died in their sins because they rejected the gospel message of the prophets of God while in the flesh taught  “faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and all other principles of the gospel necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh?” Joseph Smith taught that baptism pertains only to the celestial kingdom. If this is true, why are those who rejected the prophets and the gospel while in the flesh taught about the absolute need for baptism? Further, why are such spirits taught all of the other necessary gospel principles beyond baptism?

 

 

Uninterested in further discussion, have a lovely day!

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My understanding from extensive study and pondering of Alma, D&C 76, D&C 138, and teachings of modern-day prophets (particularly President Kimbal, President Benson, President Nelson; President Joseph F. Smith; President Joseph Fielding Smith; President Lee.) is thus:

1. The choices we make in mortality (now) have consequences.  If we reject making and keeping covenants that are available in this life our choices and consequences are limited after mortality.  We may progress within a kingdom, but we cannot progress from one kingdom to another.  If we have not had the opportunity to make and keep the exalting ordinances of the Temple in mortality, we will have the opportunity after death.  The Temple ordinances and covenants are for the living and (for the dead who have not had the opportunity.)

2. Someone who has made the exalting covenants cannot receive exaltation unless they are true and faithful to those covenants.  It seems illogical for someone who has made the sacred Temple covenants to then chose to marry outside the Temple or marry a non-member with the idea that one's covenants can save their spouse when they have chosen to marry outside the covenant.  As Paul has counseled, a believing spouse can help save their non-believing spouse; I believe Paul's counsel is directed to a married couple who have not heard of the gospel.  But, it seems counter to the law of agency and logic for a covenant member to chose to marry outside the faith with the "expectation" that they can/will "save" their unbelieving spouse; one cannot serve two masters.

3. Choices have consequences.  Agency equals responsibility.  We are responsible for the "light and knowledge" we receive; it is mocking God to receive light and knowledge then chose not to honor that light and knowledge through obedience - which allows includes repentance.  President Nelson said during his final address of the April 2018 conference: "Eventual exaltation requires our complete fidelity now to covenants we make and ordinances we receive in the house of the Lord."

I appreciate the civil discussion.  

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My understanding from extensive study is that there are two eventual places or states of mankind. Either on the right hand to receive eternal life in one kingdom- the celestial kingdom of God, or on the left to be cast out with the devil and his angels. We do not qualify for celestial glory in this life alone. None of us are or gain the state of being perfect in this life which is required for celestial glory. For this cause our progression continues in the next life. The scriptures teach of only one single path to escape the eternal damnation of hell. Acceptance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel is required for salvation from the eternal hell. It's the same for everyone, living or dead. Acceptance and obedience brings the same blessings eternally. There is no other alternate path- no other way possible that leads one from the eternal hell outside of strict obedience to all gospel principles and ordinances. For this cause there is only one salvation. Christ speaks of saving one fold of sheep, not three. If we are saved it is through the same exact obedience of everyone else who are also saved- no shortcuts, no half trying, no merits by grace alone.

The Savior teaches us, both living and dead, there's only one possible way and it is through obedience to all the covenants in the temple. There is no other way man can have hope for salvation from hell without that strict obedience. 

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Rob,

I agree with your understanding.  I think "salvation" in the scriptures is often interpreted as exaltation or a lesser form of glory.  Only the sons of perdition will not receive some type of "salvation."  To receive exaltation we must accept the Savior completely through obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel; this will take more then this mortal life, but we place ourselves in a position to continue to progress in a kingdom based on what we do in this life with the knowledge we receive.  The ultimate desire and purpose of God the Father and God the Son is for all of us to be "saved"/exalted to live with and be like Them.

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57 minutes ago, pagina said:

Rob,

I agree with your understanding.  I think "salvation" in the scriptures is often interpreted as exaltation or a lesser form of glory.  Only the sons of perdition will not receive some type of "salvation."  To receive exaltation we must accept the Savior completely through obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel; this will take more then this mortal life, but we place ourselves in a position to continue to progress in a kingdom based on what we do in this life with the knowledge we receive.  The ultimate desire and purpose of God the Father and God the Son is for all of us to be "saved"/exalted to live with and be like Them.

Methinks you don't agree with Rob's understanding...

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3 hours ago, pagina said:

Rob,

I agree with your understanding.  I think "salvation" in the scriptures is often interpreted as exaltation or a lesser form of glory.  Only the sons of perdition will not receive some type of "salvation."  To receive exaltation we must accept the Savior completely through obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel; this will take more then this mortal life, but we place ourselves in a position to continue to progress in a kingdom based on what we do in this life with the knowledge we receive.  The ultimate desire and purpose of God the Father and God the Son is for all of us to be "saved"/exalted to live with and be like Them.

Salvation and exaltation mean two different things. Many conflate the two words but that just creates confusion.  Exaltation means to be lifted up or have an increase of power, glory, etc. Salvation is the act of preserving or saving from eternal misery  and destruction. Exaltation, as it pertains to the plan of salvation is the highest state of glory within the Celestial kingdom- it means to become as Gods having an eternal marriage in celestial glory. Salvation is brought upon all but the sons of perdition. That salvation though is only available through complete obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

 

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On 4/6/2018 at 7:30 PM, pam said:

So this is a subject I have a really hard time understanding.  Mainly because I keep seeing so many conflicting opinions on the subject.

So I have always learned that this life is the time to repent and get our lives in order and on the right path.  Yet many say that after death we have the chance to repent so that we can progress.

I understand those that have never had the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ or of the gospel.  I totally get that.  But what of those who didn't do that who did have the opportunity.  Members who chose their own path instead of following the commandments and gospel teachings and principles. 

I guess I just don't get why anyone who chose NOT to repent would get another chance in the next life.  What would be the purpose of our journey and testing in this life?

I realize that this is all between the individual and God but I still get confused over the conflicting opinions.

 

I haven’t read the thirty pages of replies so forgive me if someone has already said this. 

Everyone will be repenting after death. To become like God you have to be perfect and repent of all of your sins. Since nobody is perfect when they die, all will have to repent after this life. However the degree to which we repent in this life the better off we will be in the next life. 

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21 minutes ago, Vort said:

@pagina, @Rob Osborn does not accept the LDS doctrine of the degrees of glory. He believes instead that everyone who is not a son of perdition will eventually be exalted. (I invite correction from Rob if I have misrepresented his position.)

A slight modification of words- God will save all that is possible and bring about their immortality and eternal life.

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Just now, Rob Osborn said:
20 minutes ago, Vort said:

@pagina, @Rob Osborn does not accept the LDS doctrine of the degrees of glory. He believes instead that everyone who is not a son of perdition will eventually be exalted. (I invite correction from Rob if I have misrepresented his position.)

A slight modification of words- God will save all that is possible and bring about their immortality and eternal life.

I don't understand. How is this different from what I wrote?

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3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

A slight modification of words- God will save all that is possible and bring about their immortality and eternal life.

Except for the sons of perdition everyone will be “saved”. That is all will be resurrected and receive a kingdom of glory. In this respect other Christian faiths who claim that all you have to do to be saved is say that you believe in Christ are correct. They will get their salvation. What they won’t get is exaltation. 

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10 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

Uninterested in further discussion, have a lovely day!

In all my comments to you, I have been trying over and over to get you to directly engage with the teachings on the salvation of the dead found in D&C 138, teachings that plainly and clearly contradict your interpretation of Alma 34. Yet it appears you never made the slightest attempt to specifically address the issues found in the verses I cited.. Based on what you wrote above, I presume you’re stumped and have no answers to the seeming contradictions that exist between Alma 34 and D&C 138, and that you are using your stated discomfort with my forthright style of communication as an excuse to not have to answer questions for which you have no answers. If you ever do decide you would like to have the seemingly irreconcilable contradictions that exist between Alma 34 and D&C 138 explained in a way that proves the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are in complete harmony with each other, let me know and I will be glad to explain it all to you. All the best.

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1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

In all my comments to you, I have been trying over and over to get you to directly engage with the teachings on the salvation of the dead found in D&C 138, teachings that plainly and clearly contradict your interpretation of Alma 34. Yet it appears you never made the slightest attempt to specifically address the issues found in the verses I cited.. Based on what you wrote above, I presume you’re stumped and have no answers to the seeming contradictions that exist between Alma 34 and D&C 138, and that you are using your stated discomfort with my forthright style of communication as an excuse to not have to answer questions for which you have no answers. If you ever do decide you would like to have the seemingly irreconcilable contradictions that exist between Alma 34 and D&C 138 explained in a way that proves the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are in complete harmony with each other, let me know and I will be glad to explain it all to you. All the best.

Congratulations on your victory! One that will no doubt be celebrated in song and story! Or perhaps I just don't feel like arguing with you over something you've made up your mind on. I see no contradictions between D an C 138 and Alma, as I explained in my last full post which you obviously did not read either. Seeing how continuing this discussion is literally leading us no where, I see no point in continuing. Have a most excellent day☺

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31 minutes ago, pagina said:

image.png.6fbd30dd70e1b7ebf8db10736dcd78db.png

The writing under the caption First Estate contradicts Abraham 3. Abraham 3 says nothing about eternal intelligence + spirit body = spirit child of Heavenly Parents. 

What Abraham 3 says is

”18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.”

 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

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Rob, you keep beating this drum. Your picture is in direct contradiction with Section 76, but you insist you're right and everyone else is wrong. I see exactly two possibilities:

1. Rob Osborn is wrong. In this case, Rob Osborn is rejecting the revealed truth. Insofar as he does that, he stands condemned before the Lord, and much moreso because he is actively proselytizing his perversion of gospel truth. (It's one thing to have wrong ideas -- we all have those -- and even to think we know better than the teachings of the prophets, but quite another to openly preach our dissension and seek recruits.)

2. Rob Osborn is right and everyone else is wrong. Section 76 is an incomplete understanding that Rob Osborn has successfully filled in through his own brilliance and personal revelation. In this case, Rob Osborn is setting himself up as a prophet to the world, publicly preaching doctrines that were revealed to him alone, that he is under covenant to keep to himself, and that he has no authorization to preach openly. Rob Osborn thus stands condemned as a false prophet and a covenant-breaker.

In either case, it looks like you're on the short end of the stick, Rob. Is there a third possibility I'm missing? I do not think you're a vicious, evil person; quite the contrary. But I think your pride and mule-headed stubbornness are blinding you to a much more important truth than the nature of the degrees of glory.

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5 hours ago, Vort said:

Rob, you keep beating this drum. Your picture is in direct contradiction with Section 76, but you insist you're right and everyone else is wrong. I see exactly two possibilities:

1. Rob Osborn is wrong. In this case, Rob Osborn is rejecting the revealed truth. Insofar as he does that, he stands condemned before the Lord, and much moreso because he is actively proselytizing his perversion of gospel truth. (It's one thing to have wrong ideas -- we all have those -- and even to think we know better than the teachings of the prophets, but quite another to openly preach our dissension and seek recruits.)

2. Rob Osborn is right and everyone else is wrong. Section 76 is an incomplete understanding that Rob Osborn has successfully filled in through his own brilliance and personal revelation. In this case, Rob Osborn is setting himself up as a prophet to the world, publicly preaching doctrines that were revealed to him alone, that he is under covenant to keep to himself, and that he has no authorization to preach openly. Rob Osborn thus stands condemned as a false prophet and a covenant-breaker.

In either case, it looks like you're on the short end of the stick, Rob. Is there a third possibility I'm missing? I do not think you're a vicious, evil person; quite the contrary. But I think your pride and mule-headed stubbornness are blinding you to a much more important truth than the nature of the degrees of glory.

You are way off. I'm just a guy who figures out solutions to paradoxes and problems. I'm no prophet nor do I go around pretending to be. I know our doctrine is incomplete as it has some holes in it. I do believe the temple endowment though is correct. That's what I believe. Anyone who wishes to can put two and two together to realize that the endowment and the current teachings do not coincide together- it's unfinished. I am about filling in those missing or diorganized pieces in my mind to make it work. I'm on the Lord's side.

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

You are way off. I'm just a guy who figures out solutions to paradoxes and problems. I'm no prophet nor do I go around pretending to be. I know our doctrine is incomplete as it has some holes in it. I do believe the temple endowment though is correct. That's what I believe. Anyone who wishes to can put two and two together to realize that the endowment and the current teachings do not coincide together- it's unfinished. I am about filling in those missing or diorganized pieces in my mind to make it work. I'm on the Lord's side.

If you were on the Lord’s side, you wouldn’t be championing ideas that are at variance with the official doctrines and teachings of the Church. There are no General Authorities who would ever teach your ideas as Church doctrine.

By the way, Doctrine and Covenants 88 completely overthrows your mistaken ideas about there being no degrees of glory after the resurrection. I’m wondering if you ever took into consideration the following verses that clearly indicate there are terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory when you were formulating your ideas?

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannote abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. (D&C 88)

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1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

 

 

If you were on the Lord’s side, you wouldn’t be championing ideas that are at variance with the official doctrines and teachings of the Church. There are no General Authorities who would ever teach your ideas as Church doctrine.

By the way, Doctrine and Covenants 88 completely overthrows your mistaken ideas about there being no degrees of glory after the resurrection. I’m wondering if you ever took into consideration the following verses that clearly indicate there are terrestrial and telestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory when you were formulating your ideas?

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannote abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. (D&C 88)

I take section 88 into the overall context of things. I will explain later in more detail. Even though there are different glories, at the end of the millennium there will be only one kingdom the saved all go to- the Celestial kingdom of God.

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