Repentance after death

[lostinwater]

21 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Its seems fruitless to carry on conversation on this. Someone came in and attacked me and hijacked this thread. Im sorry. It wasnt my doing. To get back on topic-

Forgiveness of sins happens only through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. That process is allowed past our mortal lives.

In Rob's defense.  

i feel this one keenly.   People tell me to ask.  "Don't trust us (substitute apostle or prophet), ask!"  Sounds great.  Then, when i get a different answer than they did, they say "Nope - you didn't ask long enough."  i ask again, and get the same answer i did the first time.  They say, "You didn't ask right!".  Again, same answer.  Eventually, they stop asking you to ask, and switch to "You KNOW we're right, but just won't admit it to yourself!".  No, i really didn't get the answer you said i would.  It switches to "Repent!"  Repent of what?  i don't believe what you're saying is right.  i ask God and Jesus in my prayers to them directly and still, feel i am ok.  Just very confusing.

Process continues as long as you allow it to.  

Rob studied something out and didn't come to the same conclusion as others.  i don't agree with a lot that Rob says (this being an exception) - but i respect his diligence and the process he follows in trying to figure things out.

Edited April 10, 2018 by lostinwater

[Rob Osborn]

10 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

In Rob's defense.  

i feel this one keenly.   People tell me to ask.  "Don't trust us (substitute apostle or prophet), ask!"  Sounds great.  Then, when i get a different answer than they did, they say "Nope - you didn't ask long enough."  i ask again, and get the same answer i did the first time.  They say, "You didn't ask right!".  Again, same answer.  Eventually, they stop asking you to ask, and switch to "You KNOW we're right, but just won't admit it to yourself!".  No, i really didn't get the answer you said i would.  It switches to "Repent!"  Repent of what?  i don't believe what you're saying is right.  i ask God and Jesus in my prayers to them directly and still, feel i am ok.  Just very confusing.

Process continues as long as you allow it to.  

Rob studied something out and didn't come to the same conclusion as others.  i don't agree with a lot that Rob says (this being an exception) - but i respect his diligence and the process he follows in trying to figure things out.

Thankyou. I appreciate it.

I would like to add to those reading this that I know a lot of what I have come up with seems contrary to the gospel and people do have the right to question me. Thats fine. I love gospel discussion. But please, do not question my testimony of Jesus Christ or his holy prophets. Through my study I have actually come to have a much greater testimony of Christ and his holy prophets. It has helped me to know how God reveals truth line upon line and that often times God will readily give unto man his mysteries but only to those who are prepared to receive it. God does it though in a way that requires diligent thinking and processing of information. We have so many truths in the gospel yet most of them are shrouded in mystery because we fail to see and hear.

And even though it may appear to some of you as arrogance or pride on my part I see it as the opposite. I see it as my one little area I know something about and in comparison to the prophets I know that  their overall knowledge of mysteries is much greater than my own. Its why I respect them and love them and heed their wise counsel. Man is imperfect, God works through imperfect people. God even works through imperfect gospel perceptions and beliefs. He isnt a god that corrects everything said and taught. He wants us to use our own minds and tgen adk if our conclusiobs are correct. In due time the Lird corrects and reveals through his holy prophets the truth. But it happens line upon line, not all at once. Thus, it is my belief and testimony that many of the perceptions we thought were right will be revealed to be incorrect and that once we truly undrrstand Gods will we will he amazed at truly who all he is able to save and bring back to him.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

In Rob's defense.  

i feel this one keenly.   People tell me to ask.  "Don't trust us (substitute apostle or prophet), ask!"  Sounds great.  Then, when i get a different answer than they did, they say "Nope - you didn't ask long enough."  i ask again, and get the same answer i did the first time.  They say, "You didn't ask right!".  Again, same answer.  Eventually, they stop asking you to ask, and switch to "You KNOW we're right, but just won't admit it to yourself!".  No, i really didn't get the answer you said i would.  It switches to "Repent!"  Repent of what?  i don't believe what you're saying is right.  i ask God and Jesus in my prayers to them directly and still, feel i am ok.  Just very confusing.

Process continues as long as you allow it to.  

Rob studied something out and didn't come to the same conclusion as others.  i don't agree with a lot that Rob says (this being an exception) - but i respect his diligence and the process he follows in trying to figure things out.

A few things.

1) I don't know all the details of what you described above, so I can't really talk to your specific situation.  But Rob has given us PLENTY of details.
2) In the beginning, we respectfully disagreed with Rob.  But it was Rob who started telling everyone else that a) what we believed was false doctrine b) that he had superior intellect and revelatory powers than we. c) That the prophets and apostles themselves were misguided.  d) All our study and revelations were meaningless.

He was the one who enacted the exact behavior that you're criticizing.

3) His tactics are not that of a person willing to have a reasoned discussion in "good faith".  Instead, he has set himself up as a teacher for no reason other than he's got an opinion.  In the end, it isn't the fact that he's got a different opinion.  It is that his tactics are such that it tends to elicit the negative side of people.

********************************************************************

Now, here's the reason why this particular belief is eliciting such resistance.

Every belief system must have a foundation. These are fundamental beliefs that you either accept or reject.  To be truly foundational, there is no real "reason" behind it.  It simply is a truth.  You accept it or you don't.  But Moroni, Alma, and the Lord (D&C and elsewhere) tells us that to change our foundation beliefs, there is a process.  I'm not going to go into it now because my point is actually the next step.

Once a foundation is laid, a building will be built upon it.  The building must fit the foundation.  If it does not fit the foundation, there are problems.

One of the foundational beliefs of LDS theology is how we establish doctrine:

1) We have living prophets who act as oracles of God. 
2) Another apostle must also testify separately that this is also revealed to him.
3) All 15 men who hold the office of apostle agree that this is sound doctrine and have received revelation on the topic.
4) Each of us must gain a testimony of the things that the prophet says. 
5) It stands the test of time.

If these steps are not followed, then any supposed doctrine is deemed personal conjecture only.  We don't really know if that piece of the building actually belongs on this foundation.  While it doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, it simply means that one cannot say it is correct doctrine.  Every modern prophet (and the vast majority of all apostles) has repeated the doctrine of the three degrees of glory as the majority understanding has been.  And it has stood the test of time. 

Now, the big problem with Rob is not that he has a different opinion or interpretation or purported personal revelation.  The problem is this:

Quote

1) Rob has decided that his personal revelation trumps the testimony and teachings of the prophets and apostles. 
2) He has said that the apostles don't understand the doctrine correctly, but he does.   
3) He has said that it is his calling to eventually testify of this to the prophets for correction of Church doctrine.
4) And he has taken over every thread about the afterlife to steer it toward his personal interpretation.  Hindering real discussion about what would otherwise be a very interesting conversation.

I honestly don't care if he believes a different interpretation.  He himself, does not seem to be harmed by it.  By all appearances, he seems to be a righteous man who tries in his own way to accept Christ into his heart and fulfill his priesthood obligations and Church callings.  So, no problem for him to believe this if he wants to (for him specifically).  But it is the tactics that I put in the quote box above that we seem to have a problem with.  And if he does not repent of this pride, it will eventually prove his downfall.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Guest

[Rob Osborn]

40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

A few things.

1) I don't know all the details of what you described above, so I can't really talk to your specific situation.  But Rob has given us PLENTY of details.
2) In the beginning, we respectfully disagreed with Rob.  But it was Rob who started telling everyone else that a) what we believed was false doctrine b) that he had superior intellect and revelatory powers than we. c) That the prophets and apostles themselves were misguided.  d) All our study and revelations were meaningless.

He was the one who enacted the exact behavior that you're criticizing.

3) His tactics are not that of a person willing to have a reasoned discussion in "good faith".  Instead, he has set himself up as a teacher for no reason other than he's got an opinion.  In the end, it isn't the fact that he's got a different opinion.  It is that his tactics are such that it tends to elicit the negative side of people.

********************************************************************

Now, here's the reason why this particular belief is eliciting such resistance.

Every belief system must have a foundation. These are fundamental beliefs that you either accept or reject.  To be truly foundational, there is no real "reason" behind it.  It simply is a truth.  You accept it or you don't.  But Moroni, Alma, and the Lord (D&C and elsewhere) tells us that to change our foundation beliefs, there is a process.  I'm not going to go into it now because my point is actually the next step.

Once a foundation is laid, a building will be built upon it.  The building must fit the foundation.  If it does not fit the foundation, there are problems.

One of the foundational beliefs of LDS theology is how we establish doctrine:

1) We have living prophets who act as oracles of God. 
2) Another apostle must also testify separately that this is also revealed to him.
3) All 15 men who hold the office of apostle agree that this is sound doctrine and have received revelation on the topic.
4) Each of us must gain a testimony of the things that the prophet says. 
5) It stands the test of time.

If these steps are not followed, then any supposed doctrine is deemed personal conjecture only.  We don't really know if that piece of the building actually belongs on this foundation.  While it doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong, it simply means that one cannot say it is correct doctrine.  Every modern prophet (and the vast majority of all apostles) has repeated the doctrine of the three degrees of glory as the majority understanding has been.  And it has stood the test of time. 

Now, the big problem with Rob is not that he has a different opinion or interpretation or purported personal revelation.  The problem is this:

I honestly don't care if he believes a different interpretation.  He himself, does not seem to be harmed by it.  By all appearances, he seems to be a righteous man who tries in his own way to accept Christ into his heart and fulfill his priesthood obligations and Church callings.  So, no problem for him to believe this if he wants to (for him specifically).  But it is the tactics that I put in the quote box above that we seem to have a problem with.  And if he does not repent of this pride, it will eventually prove his downfall.

Carborendum, 

If you want to start a new topic to crucify Rob Osborn then please do so. I came into this thread to discuss and offer insight on the repentance process after death. Others came in and made attacks that had nothing to do with the topic at hand. I have been on the defense ever since. Stop derailing the thread. If you want to start a personal campaign to crucify me thats fine, but please start an actual topic to do so. Some of us would like to discuss the topic at hand.

[The Folk Prophet]

52 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

But please, do not question my testimony ... his holy prophets.

Sorry. I do. And I will as long as you continue to preach false doctrines that are contrary to what they teach, imply you're smarter than them, and refuse to consider that they have been taught and guided by inspiration from the Lord, as compared to your "arm of flesh", "my brain power is best" approach in this matter.

You cannot have it both way. You either believe they are led by inspiration or you do not. You cannot claim they are and then in the same breath continue to state how wrong they are.

55 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

God reveals truth line upon line and that often times God will readily give unto man his mysteries but only to those who are prepared to receive it.

This is true. But you entirely misunderstand what it means to be "prepared". Coming up with your own philosophies and then actively preaching against God's anointed prophets and apostles is not "prepared" to receive greater light and knowledge. It is, in fact, a sure way to wander off into the mists of darkness.

"Prepared" is all about humility. Humility is all about faith and trust -- and not faith and trust in your own brain, but faith that God directs His church through His prophets and apostles, alongside the scriptures and personal revelation, and He does not reveal to the ancient prophets one set of truths and then to modern prophets a different set of truths that contradict the first. You believe firmly in this contradiction, which means you either don't believe the modern prophets and apostles are led by God (which puts a lie to your claim that you have a testimony of them), or you believe God reveals different truths to different people at different times contradicting Himself.

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I see it as my one little area I know something about

You see it as your one little area where you think you are smarter than the prophets, apostles, and everyone else you encounter. Everyone arguing against you accepts what God teaches through His prophets and apostles based on the witnesses they have from the Holy Spirit -- which is humility. You accept what YOU think, what YOU have worked out with YOUR brains, determined that YOUR brain is more competent than others, including men like Dallin H. Oaks...which premise is, frankly, laughable and stinks of pride. And you don't even claim your view has been confirmed by the Spirit.

The "I believe and trust the prophets and apostles are led by God...except where I don't" approach doesn't fly.

No one here believes everything they have ever said is 100% accurate. But you're suggesting that the entire church has been led astray by idiots who have failed to reason properly, failed to turn to the Lord and ask for truth, and failed to listen to or heed the line-upon-line principles they should have. That God is incapable or unwilling to teach the truth, or they're too stupid or stubborn to hear and learn that truth. Then you say you respect them. You have flat out stated that you are flying in the clouds while everyone else wallows in the mud -- and you include the living prophets and apostles in that view! 

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Man is imperfect, God works through imperfect people. God even works through imperfect gospel perceptions and beliefs. He isnt a god that corrects everything said and taught.

That's a great way to justify any old thing anyone wants to justify based on any old philosophy anyone has. It's the same philosophy the feminists are using to argue women will get the priesthood, and the same philosophy gay advocates use to argue that there will be gay marriage in the temple someday, and the same philosophy Snufferites and the like use to justify their apostasy. Yeah. You're in great company there.

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

He wants us to use our own minds and tgen adk if our conclusiobs are correct. 

Something you have self admittedly NOT DONE.

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Thus, it is my belief and testimony 

The only thing you can testify of is what Rob's brain thinks.

I have no faith or trust in Rob's brain. So testify as you will, but don't expect those who DO have a real testimony of the prophets and apostles to cast off that sure witness in favor of Rob's brain on your say so.

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Sorry. I do. And I will as long as you continue to preach false doctrines that are contrary to what they teach, imply you're smarter than them, and refuse to consider that they have been taught and guided by inspiration from the Lord, as compared to your "arm of flesh", "my brain power is best" approach in this matter.

You cannot have it both way. You either believe they are led by inspiration or you do not. You cannot claim they are and then in the same breath continue to state how wrong they are.

This is true. But you entirely misunderstand what it means to be "prepared". Coming up with your own philosophies and then actively preaching against God's anointed prophets and apostles is not "prepared" to receive greater light and knowledge. It is, in fact, a sure way to wander off into the mists of darkness.

"Prepared" is all about humility. Humility is all about faith and trust -- and not faith and trust in your own brain, but faith that God directs His church through His prophets and apostles, alongside the scriptures and personal revelation, and He does not reveal to the ancient prophets one set of truths and then to modern prophets a different set of truths that contradict the first. You believe firmly in this contradiction, which means you either don't believe the modern prophets and apostles are led by God (which puts a lie to your claim that you have a testimony of them), or you believe God reveals different truths to different people at different times contradicting Himself.

You see it as your one little area where you think you are smarter than the prophets, apostles, and everyone else you encounter. Everyone arguing against you accepts what God teaches through His prophets and apostles based on the witnesses they have from the Holy Spirit -- which is humility. You accept what YOU think, what YOU have worked out with YOUR brains, determined that YOUR brain is more competent than others, including men like Dallin H. Oaks...which premise is, frankly, laughable and stinks of pride. And you don't even claim your view has been confirmed by the Spirit.

The "I believe and trust the prophets and apostles are led by God...except where I don't" approach doesn't fly.

No one here believes everything they have ever said is 100% accurate. But you're suggesting that the entire church has been led astray by idiots who have failed to reason properly, failed to turn to the Lord and ask for truth, and failed to listen to or heed the line-upon-line principles they should have. That God is incapable or unwilling to teach the truth, or they're too stupid or stubborn to hear and learn that truth. Then you say you respect them. You have flat out stated that you are flying in the clouds while everyone else wallows in the mud -- and you include the living prophets and apostles in that view! 

That's a great way to justify any old thing anyone wants to justify based on any old philosophy anyone has. It's the same philosophy the feminists are using to argue women will get the priesthood, and the same philosophy gay advocates use to argue that there will be gay marriage in the temple someday, and the same philosophy Snufferites and the like use to justify their apostasy. Yeah. You're in great company there.

Something you have self admittedly NOT DONE.

The only thing you can testify of is what Rob's brain thinks.

I have no faith or trust in Rob's brain. So testify as you will, but don't expect those who DO have a real testimony of the prophets and apostles to cast off that sure witness in favor of Rob's brain on your say so.

Honestly, I didnt even bother to read your post. Join Carborendum in making a new post to crucify Rob Osborn. Im done dialoguing with you in here.

[The Folk Prophet]

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

If you want to start a new topic to crucify Rob Osborn

Crucify?

Is that really where you want to go as you're trying to state you're not arrogant or prideful?

When you come in and preach that the prophets and apostles are wrong this is what you're going to get Rob.

4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Honestly, I didnt even bother to read your post. 

Doesn't bother me. My primary concern is that you don't lead anyone astray with your "arm of flesh is better" approach. It's a highly seductive idea. But it is wrong.

5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im done dialoguing with you in here.

I am not dialogue with you. I have never been dialogue with you. You are preaching that the apostles and prophets are wrong. I am stating you are wrong. Any time you say such a thing I will stand against you.

[wenglund]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, I dont' think it was hyperbole.  By my count, we've just passed "umpteen billion" as of last week.

To some extent, that is my fault. With me, hope springs eternal. Sorry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

He himself, does not seem to be harmed by it. 

...

And if he does not repent of this pride, it will eventually prove his downfall.

Whereas these two statements aren't contradictory by the inclusion of the word "seem", many don't "seem" harmed by many things.

That being said, it is the harm that such ideas might cause to others that strikes me as truly problematic. The concept that there is any level of repentance in the next life for those who blow off repentance here might easily lead to procrastination in repentance. The idea that those who procrastinate repentance in any degree will become sons of perdition is an incredibly hurtful, painful, discouraging idea. So you end up with either God being cruel or God being too easy. Either way fails the fair and just test. God must be perfectly just. God will be perfectly fair. It is not perfectly just that those who knowingly choose not to repent gain the same ultimate reward as those who repented. And it is not just that those who choose not to repent of something minor receive the same cast-into-outer-darkness as those who betray the Holy Ghost, crucifying the Savior afresh, etc. The beauty of the degrees of glory doctrine is that it allows for perfect justice. To those who deserve, so shall it be. The "God will eventually save/exalt everyone except the worst of the worst" philosophy is certainly pleasing to the carnal mind. It sounds nice. It sounded nice to the third of the hosts of heaven when they gleefully follows Satan's very similar philosophy into outer darkness. "Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God." Oh yes. The philosophy sounds very nice to some.

Edited April 10, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

Gifts and rewards may be termed a little different. The command to repent from all sin cannot be annulled. The gift of eternal life which is synonymous with salvation is given to all the repentant who repent from all their sins. This comes to all Christ saves. It is absolutely impossible for Christ to save anyone still in their sins. It is also impossible to repent of every exact sin in this life. So, it creates this issue of providing a means before judgment for man to overcome all their sins or sinful desires. That issue is resolved in knowing that we can repent and progress in the spirit world in both the spirit prison (hell) and paradise and also during the millennium. Thus, the gift of salvation (eternal life) is given to all the repenant as they are saved. Those who refuse to repent by judgment from all their sins are thus not forgiven and remain filthy to be cast out. This is where "rewards" come into play. Those who fail to repent are rewarded with a loss or absense of light and truth in hell. The righteous- those who have been gifted eternal life then receive a reward according to their works and level of light and truth.

[Rob Osborn]

Satans true plans were not/ are not to save anyone in Gods kingdom. His plans were to destroy Gods kingdom and children- to lead them down captive in his chains. His same plan he had before our earth life is the same plan in place today. Nothing has changed. It was Christ who said he would save all that the Father should give him to save. Satan said this same thing only he lied- he had no intention in saving Gods children. This is why he was called a liar from the beginning.

[The Folk Prophet]

So...eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will still let us repent, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

and if it so be that we are guilty, God will still let us repent,

Beat us with a few stripes, TFP! Sheesh. Get it right. Of course it sounds crazy when you put it like that!

[zil]

Did someone say stripes?

[Vort]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

Did someone say stripes?

Beats me.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So...eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will still let us repent, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

You forget the part about the condemnation part and torment in hell until they repent...

Wickedness never was happiness.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Whereas these two statements aren't contradictory by the inclusion of the word "seem", many don't "seem" harmed by many things.

There is the belief vs. the attitude about the belief.  His belief in this binary afterlife is what "seems" to not harm him.  But his attitude about his beliefs trumping the words of the prophets is where the pride comes.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Did someone say stripes?

Now, if only it were green instead of blue.  THAT would be beautiful.

[zil]

16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Now, if only it were green instead of blue.  THAT would be beautiful.

[Guest]

Just now, zil said:

You're awesome. Where can I get one for less than $100?

[SpiritDragon]

8 hours ago, wenglund said:

To some extent, that is my fault. With me, hope springs eternal. Sorry.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's hard to want to give up on a fellow-saint. Your optimism and hope is refreshing.

[Rob Osborn]

Let us also not forget that in the parabke of the laborers in the vineyard that even up until the very last hour the sinners who repent are forgiven and given the same wage which is eternal life.

[wenglund]

On 4/10/2018 at 8:56 AM, Rob Osborn said:

Thankyou. I appreciate it.

But please, do not question my testimony of Jesus Christ or his holy prophets.

I don't.

I don't even question the truth of your binary belief about the after-life.  It is clearly and repeatedly conveyed throughout the scriptures.  And, old light and knowledge isn't made false by new light and knowledge. It is simply understood differently. The truth of old light and knowledge is added upon by more and new truth. The birds-eye view of the truth is  given greater meaning by a close-up or even a microscopic view. The number 1 doesn't stop being true when viewed in terms of fractions.

What I object to is your declaring new light and knowledge to be false, along with its prophetic and apostolic and general membership believers 

Doing so, itself, is what brings your testimony into question.

Doing so dogmatically makes attempting to converse with you not only unpleasant (I am being kind here), but futile, if not counterproductive--which is why not a few highly intelligent and reasonable people have broken off responding to you..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited April 11, 2018 by wenglund

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

I don't.

I don't even question the truth of your binary belief about the after-life.  It is clearly and repeatedly conveyed throughout the scriptures.  And, old light and knowledge isn't made false by new light and knowledge. It is simply understood differently. The truth of old light and knowledge is added upon by more and new truth. The birds-eye view of the truth is  given greater meaning by a close-up or even a microscopic view. The number 1 doesn't stop being true when viewed in terms of fractions.

What I object to is your declaring new light and knowledge to be false, along with its prophetic and apostolic and general membership believers 

Doing so, itself, is what brings your testimony into question.

Doing so dogmatically makes attempting to converse with you not only unpleasant (I am being kind here), but futile, if not counterproductive--which is why not a few highly intelligent and reasonable people have broken off responding to you..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

New light and knowledge and opinions in regards to the "interpretation" of new light and knowledge are two separate things. For instance- a video was shown earlier where a prophet of God is teaching that man can be saved into heaven without obedience to gospel ordinances. That stands as his opinion or perhaps an interpretation in light of new light and knowledge. However, it breakes paramount principles of the gospel so therefore we have to conclude that either the Book of Mormon and New Testament and large parts of the D&C and PoGP are incorrect or his opinion or interpretation is incorrect. As it pertains to this topic, repentance, according to scripture must be accompianed by obedience to laws and ordinances in the gospel. Section 138 is rather emphatic in declaring this truth. Salvation, or being "saved" requires that one is forgiven of their sins. Without obedience to ordinances one cannot be saved from hell. Therefore, the opinion or interpretation given in the video by Dallin H. Oaks (it is not new light and knowledge ) is incorrect, or, the scriptures are incorrect. Its not that both are right. No, one is right and the other is wrong.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[wenglund]

33 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

New light and knowledge and opinions in regards to the "interpretation" of new light and knowledge are two separate things. For instance- a video was shown earlier where a prophet of God is teaching that man can be saved into heaven without obedience to gospel ordinances. That stands as his opinion or perhaps an interpretation in light of new light and knowledge. However, it breakes paramount principles of the gospel so therefore we have to conclude that either the Book of Mormon and New Testament and large parts of the D&C and PoGP are incorrect or his opinion or interpretation is incorrect. As it pertains to this topic, repentance, according to scripture must be accompianed by obedience to laws and ordinances in the gospel. Section 138 is rather emphatic in declaring this truth. Salvation, or being "saved" requires that one is forgiven of their sins. Without obedience to ordinances one cannot be saved from hell. Therefore, the opinion or interpretation given in the video by Dallin H. Oaks (it is not new light and knowledge ) is incorrect, or, the scriptures are incorrect. Its not that both are right. No, one is right and the other is wrong.

{Insightful comment deleted in recognition of futility]

Thanks, -Wade Englund-