Repentance after death

[wenglund]

48 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

The path portion is where we disagree. You see the path of salvation as having exits along the way where only a percentage of obedience is attained and thus many places short of obedience where the saved end up. I see the path as having to reach the end before one is saved which includes obedience to all saving ordinances.

That is a fairly good analogy.

To expand upon it, I not only believe in points of departure along the path (laterally as well as downward, but also points where people may chose to stop climbing up the path and remain where they are, in which case those who depart from or stop along the path will not reach the blessed top of the spiritual mountain, but will nevertheless attain some heights and vistas and thus in no wise lose their reward. 

Whereas you seem to believe in people congregating along the same path solely at the top or the bottom of the spiritual mountain, and nowhere in-between.

As an avid hiker, often in groups, my view of spiritual hiking and physical pathways tends to reflect my perception of spiritual pathways.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Edited May 2, 2018 by wenglund

[Jersey Boy]

16 hours ago, wenglund said:

Excellent question.

Speaking only for myself, I see at least two ways to reasonably reconcile portions of D$C 76 with portions of D&C 138

1. If one views the description of the Terrestrial kingdom in D&C 76 in absolute terms, then those spirits in prison who fit the description,  and yet accept the gospel preached to them in prison, and repent, and receive the vicarious ordinances of baptism--as indicated in D&C 138, while not celestialized thereby,  will be benefited--i.e. they will be redeemed and cleansed from their sins, though still to be judged as terrestrial according to their works. Baptism, then, isn't a requisite for the terrestrial kingdom,  but a blessing therein nevertheless.
2. If one views the description of the Terrestrial kingdom in D&C 76 as a general rule, then D&C 138 may be seen as clarifying the exceptions to that rule--i.e. those who accept the gospel in prison, repent, and receive the vicarious ordinance of baptism, will be celestialized.

There may be other ways to reconcile the two sections, if not also admit to not knowing or having a clue, but I am inclined at this point, and for reasons of my own, to favor the second reconciliation. We'll see.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

The problem is that D&C 138’s rebellious spirits, those who are confined to the spirit prison, who with eyes wide-open rejected the prophets of God and the gospel of Christ,  do not fit the description of D&C 76’s terrestrial beings who were good and honorable people but were kept from the truth because they were blinded by the craftiness of men. The wicked consigned to the spirit prison in D&C 138, even those who are taught the gospel of Christ and the need for its saving ordinances while consigned to the spiritual darkness of hell, are far in status of righteousness from those who were the good and honorable people of the earth.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, wenglund said:

That is a fairly good analogy.

To expand upon it, I not only believe in points of departure along the path (laterally as well as downward, but also points where people may chose to stop climbing up the path and remain where they are, in which case those who depart from or stop along the path will not reach the blessed top of the spiritual mountain, but will nevertheless attain some heights and vistas and thus in no wise lose their reward. 

Whereas you seem to believe in people congregating along the same path solely at the top or the bottom of the spiritual mountain, and nowhere in-between.

As an avid hiker, often in groups, my view of spiritual hiking and physical pathways tends to reflect my perception of spiritual pathways.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

The path of course is shown to us in the endowment. Tell me, is there an exit leading to vistas (rest) anywhere along that path from room to room before one gets into the celestial room?

[estradling75]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

The problem is that D&C 138’s rebellious spirits, those who are confined to the spirit prison, who with eyes wide-open rejected the prophets of God and the gospel of Christ,  do not fit the description of D&C 76’s terrestrial beings who were good and honorable people but were kept from the truth because they were blinded by the craftiness of men. The wicked consigned to the spirit prison in D&C 138, even those who are taught the gospel of Christ and the need for its saving ordinances while consigned to the spiritual darkness of hell, are far in status of righteousness from those who were the good and honorable people of the earth.

You assume it was eyes wide-open rejection...  One reason for the flood (many have speculated) was that the culture got too evil for people to really have a chance.  If so.. since it would not have happened over night there could be people classified as the rebellious in the days of Noah that simply did not have the chance to be any other way.  Thus the missionary work for the dead could still be focused on those who did not get a chance before

[Rob Osborn]

My point being the covenants made in the endowment are all part of the minimum saving ordinances. It is thus why in section 138 that not only must they repent and be baptized but also keep the covenants of the temple endowment.

[Rob Osborn]

4 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You assume it was eyes wide-open rejection...  One reason for the flood (many have speculated) was that the culture got too evil for people to really have a chance.  If so.. since it would not have happened over night there could be people classified as the rebellious in the days of Noah that simply did not have the chance to be any other way.  Thus the missionary work for the dead could still be focused on those who did not get a chance before

Those who went to prison were those who died in the flood because they rejected the gospel. Those who believed were caught up into Zion and were spared. Thus the gospel is preached again to them for them to accept.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Rob Osborn

[Rob Osborn]

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.
            39 And that which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment; (Moses 7:38-39)

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

Also, my comments were supposed to lighthearted--a gentle ribbing rather than a scathing rebuke. Evidently I failed in that effort. I would have thought from all the thumbs ups that I have given your posts over the past while, you would know how much I generally respect and agree with your position.

Which is why it confused me so much when you seemed to turn hostile out of the blue. I never meant to "dismiss" you. I didn't expect that my saying I felt a certain idea was wrong would be taken harshly. I thought you'd simply explain why I either misunderstood or why you felt I was mistaken in my view. Then out of nowhere it seemed to become personal and my communication style is under attack. I am emphatic in the way I express things. I own that. But that is irrelevant to the points being discussed.

But now that this thread seems to be about to go off the rails again, I'm not sure I want to really continue being involved in the overall discussion anyhow. You'll note I did dig into legitimate intellectual discussions, theories, concepts, etc., with you and zil and others, whereas I have little interest in discussion about ideas that straight-up dismiss the plain teachings of the church.

[Jersey Boy]

5 hours ago, estradling75 said:

You assume it was eyes wide-open rejection...  One reason for the flood (many have speculated) was that the culture got too evil for people to really have a chance.  If so.. since it would not have happened over night there could be people classified as the rebellious in the days of Noah that simply did not have the chance to be any other way.  Thus the missionary work for the dead could still be focused on those who did not get a chance before

Your point is beside the point because D&C 138 makes it quite clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ, including the absolute need for each soul to submit to the ordinances baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, is preached to every single human being in the spirit world who has not yet embraced the gospel, including those who sinned against the gospel with their eyes wide open. The language is clear and unambiguous: The gospel of Christ is extended tto EVERYONE without regard to how they responded to the gospel while in the flesh, the only exemption being the the sons of perdition.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

and...

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to ALL the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto ALL who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These (i.e. ALL the spirits of men) were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (D&C 138)

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

The path of course is shown to us in the endowment. Tell me, is there an exit leading to vistas (rest) anywhere along that path from room to room before one gets into the celestial room?

Even though it is not exactly analogous, yes, there are ways to physically depart, but also mentally and spiritually, though given the sacred nature of the topic, I shan't say more than that..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

3 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Your point is beside the point because D&C 138 makes it quite clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ, including the absolute need for each soul to submit to the ordinances baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, is preached to every single human being in the spirit world who has not yet embraced the gospel, including those who sinned against the gospel with their eyes wide open. The language is clear and unambiguous: The gospel of Christ is extended tto EVERYONE without regard to how they responded to the gospel while in the flesh, the only exemption being the the sons of perdition. 

I agree that the gospel will be offered to all the spirits in prison, and not just those fit for the terrestrial kingdom, though not all will accept the gospel. To me, those who repent and receive vicarious baptism and endure to the end, will be, in my humble opinion, the rare exceptions to the rules described in D&C 76, and will be granted celestial glory. I suspect that, of the relative few, those who knowingly rejected the gospel during mortality will be far less likely to accept the gospel in the after life than those who never had the opportunity.  That is why, in part, now is the time fro men to prepare to meet God and not postpone the day of their repentance.

Thus D&C 76 is reconciled with D&C 138 without rendering impotent the urgency  to accept and live the gospel during mortality.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

30 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Even though it is not exactly analogous, yes, there are ways to physically depart, but also mentally and spiritually, though given the sacred nature of the topic, I shan't say more than that..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Hum...not really seeing it. The point of the whole endowment is to receive all of the covenants that enable us to return. They all build up and go hand in hand leading from one step to the next. I have always found it interesting that everything we do in the church and temple is for the sole purpose to enable us to return to our HF. Thats the plan of salvation. Thats a fact!

[wenglund]

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Which is why it confused me so much when you seemed to turn hostile out of the blue. I never meant to "dismiss" you. I didn't expect that my saying I felt a certain idea was wrong would be taken harshly. I thought you'd simply explain why I either misunderstood or why you felt I was mistaken in my view. Then out of nowhere it seemed to become personal and my communication style is under attack. I am emphatic in the way I express things. I own that. But that is irrelevant to the points being discussed.

But now that this thread seems to be about to go off the rails again, I'm not sure I want to really continue being involved in the overall discussion anyhow. You'll note I did dig into legitimate intellectual discussions, theories, concepts, etc., with you and zil and others, whereas I have little interest in discussion about ideas that straight-up dismiss the plain teachings of the church.

I appreciate the clarification, and am sorry for the misunderstanding. It wasn't just the emphatic style, but also the seemingly unyielding manner that gave the evidently false impression of dismissive dogmatism. Going forward I will interpret it instead as a formidable challenge intent on bring out the best, strengthening the good, and clearly separating truth from error. 

I also respect your not wishing to contribute to what you view as dismissive of plain church teaching, though your voice of warning will be missed as some of us meander through the potential ideatioal mine field.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[wenglund]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hum...not really seeing it. The point of the whole endowment is to receive all of the covenants that enable us to return. They all build up and go hand in hand leading from one step to the next. I have always found it interesting that everything we do in the church and temple is for the sole purpose to enable us to return to our HF. Thats the plan of salvation. Thats a fact!

We are in agreement about the intent and purpose of the church, gospel, and temple. Where we obviously differ is in whether, among the myriad of God's children, the intent will be realized in an all or nothing manner or to varying degrees.

I would caution against using movement from room to room in some of the older temples as indicative of an exit-free gospel path since the movement from room to room doesn't involve at least two key aspects of the gospel and temple rituals: baptisms and marriage. , Besides, outside the temple, those of us living in the telestial world go to work and participate in leisure and recreational activities in addition to going to church, which is something that doesn't occur in the first of the rooms in the older temples. We also eat and sleep in the telestial world, and while there may be some sleeping in the first room of the older temples, it is strongly advised against. In other words, the useful metaphor of the rooms ought not be taken too far.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, wenglund said:

but also the seemingly unyielding manner that gave the evidently false impression of dismissive dogmatism.

When I am unyielding one ought to know it because I would not include phrases such as...

"I'm of the opinion"
"I don't think"
"maybe"
"I would contend"
"I consider"
"we may be saying the same thing."
"We don't really know"
"maybe I entirely misunderstood ... It's been known to happen."
"Maybe."

...every one of these being used by me in the last five or six pages of this thread.

Edited May 3, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, wenglund said:

We are in agreement about the intent and purpose of the church, gospel, and temple. Where we obviously differ is in whether, among the myriad of God's children, the intent will be realized in an all or nothing manner or to varying degrees.

I would caution against using movement from room to room in some of the older temples as indicative of an exit-free gospel path since the movement from room to room doesn't involve at least two key aspects of the gospel and temple rituals: baptisms and marriage. , Besides, outside the temple, those of us living in the telestial world go to work and participate in leisure and recreational activities in addition to going to church, which is something that doesn't occur in the first of the rooms in the older temples. We also eat and sleep in the telestial world, and while there may be some sleeping in the first room of the older temples, it is strongly advised against. In other words, the useful metaphor of the rooms ought not be taken too far.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

In the endowment, in each kingdom, we make covenants that are preparatory to receiving higher covenants and law. What would be the purpose to make covenants preparatory to receiving higher law if it were not actually possible?

[Jersey Boy]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

I agree that the gospel will be offered to all the spirits in prison, and not just those fit for the terrestrial kingdom, though not all will accept the gospel. To me, those who repent and receive vicarious baptism and endure to the end, will be, in my humble opinion, the rare exceptions to the rules described in D&C 76, and will be granted celestial glory. I suspect that, of the relative few, those who knowingly rejected the gospel during mortality will be far less likely to accept the gospel in the after life than those who never had the opportunity.  That is why, in part, now is the time fro men to prepare to meet God and not postpone the day of their repentance.

Thus D&C 76 is reconciled with D&C 138 without rendering impotent the urgency  to accept and live the gospel during mortality.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Your idea seems reasonable but is incorrect. In the end, all but the sons of perdition will have to believe and accept the gospel in order to to obtain a salvation in any of the kingdoms of glory. This is why D&C 76 testifies that even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will be required to sincerely bow the knee to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepare. (D&C 76)

D&C Sections 19 and 76 also make it clear that the reason why all but the sons of perdition will eventually accept the gospel before the final judgement is because they will be very powerfully motivated to do so. You see, being thrust into hell to suffer for your own sins, with most exquisite agony and without relief until decision is made to repent , will eventually impel all to accept Christ and his the gospel, the only exception being the eternally hardened sons of perdition who steadfastly refuse to accept Christ and his salvation.

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

The process of being thrust into hell where one suffers for his own sins, until he repents and accepts the salvation of Christ, is called “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” and it is through exposure to this process of divine punishment that all but the sons of perdition will eventually be subdued by Christ, for he is the one who trods the winepress (the wicked in hell are analogous to the grapes that are trod upon by the Savior).

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.(D&C 76)

Even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will be rendered “spotless” through their sincere repentance after the dreadful experience of being thrust into God’s winepress of divine justice.

 

Edited May 3, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[estradling75]

7 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Your point is beside the point because D&C 138 makes it quite clear that the gospel of Jesus Christ, including the absolute need for each soul to submit to the ordinances baptism for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, is preached to every single human being in the spirit world who has not yet embraced the gospel, including those who sinned against the gospel with their eyes wide open. The language is clear and unambiguous: The gospel of Christ is extended tto EVERYONE without regard to how they responded to the gospel while in the flesh, the only exemption being the the sons of perdition.

I have no disagreement with the scripture you quoted... However I strongly disagree with the strongly binary view of what it must mean to be Wicked and Rebellious... Let me give a scriptural example...  Who else does the scriptures call Rebellious and Wicked?

The Lamanites.

Who else had missionaries sent out to reclaim them?

The Lamanites.

Now lets examine how that went.  At first the Nephites were total failures.   The rebellion and wickedness of the Lamanites was very personal.  But then time passed and about the time of the Sons of Mosiah things had changed.  The Lamanites were still wicked and rebellious, but for a group of them (The future Anti-Nephi Lehis) their wickedness and rebellion were because of the traditions of their fathers and lack of Light and Knowledge rather then a personal rejection of the Lord and his Light.

Missionary work among them was wildly successful.  The Book of Mormon also points out that converts were of this class of never having had the light to really rebel against.  Of the large number of converts only one or two were those that had the light before.

In the days of Noah we know there where the rebellious and the wicked who rejected the light.  However demanding that all the wicked and rebellious in the days of Noah were of this sort is very binary and limited thinking.  There is a lot of time at play as the wicked grew before the flood (like the Lamanites grew before the Sons of Mosiah).  In the Days of Noah some of the Rebellious and Wicked could very easily been Rebellious and Wicked because of the traditions of their fathers and because they lacked Light and Knowledge.  This makes them prime candidates for missionary work. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by estradling75

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I have no disagreement with the scripture you quoted... However I strongly disagree with the strongly binary view of what it must mean to be Wicked and Rebellious... Let me give a scriptural example...  Who else does the scriptures call Rebellious and Wicked?

The Lamanites.

Who else had missionaries sent out to reclaim them?

The Lamanites.

Now lets examine how that went.  At first the Nephites were total failures.   The rebellion and wickedness of the Lamanites was very personal.  But then time passed and about the time of the Sons of Mosiah things had changed.  The Lamanites were still wicked and rebellious, but for a group of them (The future Anti-Nephi Lehis) their wickedness and rebellion were because of the traditions of their fathers and lack of Light and Knowledge rather then a personal rejection of the Lord and his Light.

Missionary work among them was wildly successful.  The Book of Mormon also points out that converts were of this class of never having had the light to really rebel against.  Of the large number of converts only one or two were those that had the light before.

In the days of Noah we know there where the rebellious and the wicked who rejected the light.  However demanding that all the wicked and rebellious in the days of Noah were of this sort is very binary and limited thinking.  There is a lot of time at play as the wicked grew before the flood (like the Lamanites grew before the Sons of Mosiah).  In the Days of Noah some of the Rebellious and Wicked could very easily been Rebellious and Wicked because of the traditions of their fathers and because they lacked Light and Knowledge.  This makes them prime candidates for missionary work. 

Im wondering why its hard for LDS to believe that the gospel is being preached to the wicked and rebellious now in spirit prison who did reject the gospel in mortality? Is it that we dont think they are capable of repentance or that their eternal fate is already sealed?

[Jersey Boy]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

I have no disagreement with the scripture you quoted... However I strongly disagree with the strongly binary view of what it must mean to be Wicked and Rebellious... Let me give a scriptural example...  Who else does the scriptures call Rebellious and Wicked?

The Lamanites.

Who else had missionaries sent out to reclaim them?

The Lamanites.

Now lets examine how that went.  At first the Nephites were total failures.   The rebellion and wickedness of the Lamanites was very personal.  But then time passed and about the time of the Sons of Mosiah things had changed.  The Lamanites were still wicked and rebellious, but for a group of them (The future Anti-Nephi Lehis) their wickedness and rebellion were because of the traditions of their fathers and lack of Light and Knowledge rather then a personal rejection of the Lord and his Light.

Missionary work among them was wildly successful.  The Book of Mormon also points out that converts were of this class of never having had the light to really rebel against.  Of the large number of converts only one or two were those that had the light before.

In the days of Noah we know there where the rebellious and the wicked who rejected the light.  However demanding that all the wicked and rebellious in the days of Noah were of this sort is very binary and limited thinking.  There is a lot of time at play as the wicked grew before the flood (like the Lamanites grew before the Sons of Mosiah).  In the Days of Noah some of the Rebellious and Wicked could very easily been Rebellious and Wicked because of the traditions of their fathers and because they lacked Light and Knowledge.  This makes them prime candidates for missionary work. 

Valid point, but it doesn’t at all negate the fact that D&C 138 testifies the gospel and its blessings are extended to every human being who has not yet received it, without regard to how they may or may not have responded to the gospel while in the body. Much confusion arises because most don’t realize that the Book of Mormon’s “day of this life” (fallen mortality) includes the time spent in the spirit world after death and before the resurrection.

[estradling75]

3 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Valid point, but it doesn’t at all negate the fact that D&C 138 testifies the gospel and its blessings are extended to every human being who has not yet received it, without regard to how they may or may not have responded to the gospel while in the body. Much confusion arises because most don’t realize that the Book of Mormon’s “day of this life” (fallen mortality) includes the time spent in the spirit world after death and before the resurrection.

It is very clear in the Book of Mormon that Death does not make a big impact on our personality.  We remain the same person (Evil, good, righteous, wicked etc.) and it warns quite clearly against procrastination.  It also seems to say that Death is a cut off point for that.  Then Modern revelation comes along and talks about work for the Dead. This seems contradictory.  But a faithful and true LDS does not say Modern revelation makes the Book of Mormon a lie, nor do they say the Book of Mormon means modern revelation is false.

Instead they try to Harmonize both...  The scripture are clear that procrastination is bad.  Therefore rejecting the Gospel in mortality expecting to pick it up after death is wrong.  (And is very unlikely to work otherwise why warn against it?)  Work for the dead puts everyone on equal footing to accept the Gospel.  This is what modern Revelation teaches us.  Is it possible that someone can knowingly and willful reject the Gospel in this life and pick it up after we die?  It seems possible when trying to harmonize the two sources but we should not be betting our salvation on it (otherwise we are ignoring the Book of Mormons warnings).  And we should be very careful about declaring such that might encourage others to make such a foolish choice.   

[Rob Osborn]

Wickedness never was happiness. Why do we get stuck in the belief that somehow we think choosing wickedness is fun?

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im curious- if one repents and is baptized it is said they become joint heirs with Christ in the attainment of all the Father has to give. How do you reconcile this?

 

Do you have any experience or direct knowledge of what happens to an estate (all that someone has) when there are "Joint Heirs"?   Especially items that cannot be devided?

 

The Traveler 

[Rob Osborn]

44 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

Do you have any experience or direct knowledge of what happens to an estate (all that someone has) when there are "Joint Heirs"?   Especially items that cannot be devided?

 

The Traveler 

?

[Traveler]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

?

Exactly what I expected.

 

The Traveler