Repentance after death


pam
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44 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Exactly, though from my perspective there is a huge overlap--which I have reiterated often. The disconnect on your end is debilitating to effective communication, and yet you believe you see things clearly, which makes it all the more debilitating.

The good news is that it isn't vital to the welfare of the universe or even our respective personal success that you and I effectively communicate or even communicate at all. That is why I am at peace no longer fruitlessly trying. You are a good and well intending man, and I will  leave it at that. All the best,

Thanks, -Wade Englund- 

I believe our biggest problems to communication is in the very fundamental definitions of words. When I speak of things like "hell" I do so in a traditional sense. When you speak of "hell" it takes on "nuances" as you say and thus you may mean anything from outer darkness to a degree of glory in heaven.

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33 minutes ago, wenglund said:

By "agency" do you mean: "the office or function of one who is authorized to act for or in the place of another," rather than "the ability and privilege God has given us to choose and act for ourselves?"

Thanks, -Wade Englnd-

I see the two and basically the same.  The misuse of agency will result in the loss of agency.  In essence we are never free to act - there are always consiquences.

 

The Traveler

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2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I believe our biggest problems to communication is in the very fundamental definitions of words. When I speak of things like "hell" I do so in a traditional sense. When you speak of "hell" it takes on "nuances" as you say and thus you may mean anything from outer darkness to a degree of glory in heaven.

The Traditional meaning of hell is - Death.

 

The Traveler

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48 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Exactly, though from my perspective there is a huge overlap--which I have reiterated often. The disconnect on your end is debilitating to effective communication, and yet you believe you see things clearly, which makes it all the more debilitating.

Indeed...  Notice how he still has not even gotten any where close to understanding the point you made...  the point @zil tried to clarify,  and that I probably most everyone else here understood.

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5 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I believe our biggest problems to communication is in the very fundamental definitions of words. When I speak of things like "hell" I do so in a traditional sense. When you speak of "hell" it takes on "nuances" as you say and thus you may mean anything from outer darkness to a degree of glory in heaven.

That has certainly presented a challenge. and not just with me. Good luck to you.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

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How is it possible to have a conversation when we can't agree on the meaning of very simple words that really need no explaining? For instance, here is one such scripture-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Normally none of this needs explaining. But, in LDS circles we are in it's inevitable that we will debate these words and terms from that scripture alone as to their meaning-

"Believeth"

"Believeth in me"

"Saved"

"Inherit"

"Kingdom"

"Kingdom of God"

"Believeth not"

"Damned"

Now, it is a fact that we have continued this debate more or less because none of us can come to an agreement on what these words mean. I could be using the word "saved" to mean "saved from the eternal hell where the devil and his angels are" while someone else will be using it to specifically mean "being saved into a particular spot in heaven". Then, when they come to the word "damned" they will be thinking of a person who is still "saved" but not in the same sense as used previously, but yet stopped in their progression. Then, we will debate these semantics endlessly. 

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53 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

How is it possible to have a conversation when we can't agree on the meaning of very simple words that really need no explaining? For instance, here is one such scripture-

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
            34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Normally none of this needs explaining. But, in LDS circles we are in it's inevitable that we will debate these words and terms from that scripture alone as to their meaning-

"Believeth"

"Believeth in me"

"Saved"

"Inherit"

"Kingdom"

"Kingdom of God"

"Believeth not"

"Damned"

Now, it is a fact that we have continued this debate more or less because none of us can come to an agreement on what these words mean. I could be using the word "saved" to mean "saved from the eternal hell where the devil and his angels are" while someone else will be using it to specifically mean "being saved into a particular spot in heaven". Then, when they come to the word "damned" they will be thinking of a person who is still "saved" but not in the same sense as used previously, but yet stopped in their progression. Then, we will debate these semantics endlessly. 

Have you ever taught your no 3 degrees of glory after the resurrection ideas in an official Church setting,, such as in a Sacrament Meeting talk or in a gospel doctrine lesson? If so, how well received were your ideas? Have you ever shared your perspective on the plan salvation with your bishop or stake president?

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Not necessarily. The traditional meaning is the place where the condemned go after death and eternally where the devil and his angels will be.

Source please

 

The Traveler

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5 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Have you ever taught your no 3 degrees of glory after the resurrection ideas in an official Church setting,, such as in a Sacrament Meeting talk or in a gospel doctrine lesson? If so, how well received were your ideas? Have you ever shared your perspective on the plan salvation with your bishop or stake president?

I actually have, but have done so stating it as "my opinion" only. Mixed results honestly.

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5 hours ago, Traveler said:

Source please

 

The Traveler

Hell
        
        
            
                
                    
                        See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
                    
                
            
            Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).
            Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed Him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
            The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness. (Guide to the Scriptures)

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19 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Hell
        
        
            
                
                    
                        See also Damnation; Death, Spiritual; Devil; Sons of Perdition
                    
                
            
            Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).
            Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed Him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
            The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness. (Guide to the Scriptures)

This is not tradtional - it is a post modern defination and exclusively unitue to the LDS interpertation of scripture and modern (not tradtional - at least in the Biblical sense) revelation.  BTW - did you take note of a resurrection to a "degree of glory"?  Are you sure you are quoting form a source with which you agree?

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

This is not tradtional - it is a post modern defination and exclusively unitue to the LDS interpertation of scripture and modern (not tradtional - at least in the Biblical sense) revelation.  BTW - did you take note of a resurrection to a "degree of glory"?  Are you sure you are quoting form a source with which you agree?

 

The Traveler

It actually is traditional. The Webster's 1828 reads as follows for "Hell"

1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matthew 10:28. Luke 12:5.

That is how Joseph Smith would have used the term. And it's the proper way we definitely it today.

 

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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

It actually is traditional. The Webster's 1828 reads as follows for "Hell"

1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matthew 10:28. Luke 12:5.

That is how Joseph Smith would have used the term. And it's the proper way we definitely it today.

 

To clarify: The 1828 dictionary entry for "hell" is much more detailed and expansive.  Joseph would have understood ANY of these definitions.  To choose one over another would involve interpretation or revelation.

Quote

1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matthew 10:28. Luke 12:5.

Sin is hell begun, as religion is heaven anticipated.

2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Psalms 16:10. Jonah 2:2.

3. The pains of hell temporal death, or agonies that dying persons feel, or which bring to the brink of the grave. Psalms 18:5.

4. The gates of hell the power and policy of Satan and his instruments. Matthew 16:18.

5. The infernal powers.

6. The place at a running play to which are carried those who are caught.

7. A place into which a tailor throws his shreds.

8. A dungeon or prison.

While I think it is reasonable to rule out the theatrical and sartorial definitions, the rest are fair game. But it's important to remember that #6 and #7 originated figuratively from the other definitions listed above.

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

To clarify: The 1828 dictionary entry for "hell" is much more detailed and expansive.  Joseph would have understood ANY of these definitions.  To choose one over another would involve interpretation or revelation.

While I think it is reasonable to rule out the theatrical and sartorial definitions, the rest are fair game. But it's important to remember that #6 and #7 originated figuratively from the other definitions listed above.

Traditionally, and in general, "hell" as described in the scriptures in conjunction with the plan of salvation, is a place.

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16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Meaning just that- neverending or endless. Supply the context.

Traditionally, and in general, "eternal" as described in the scriptures in conjunction with divine punishment, meant just that - neverending or endless. Then Joseph Smith received a revelation, and created a new definition. Joseph liked to "corrupt" our language. Stakes are not geographic regions. Wards are geographic, but not ecclesiastic. Your elders are not younger than you. Angels are not dead people. Celestial just means heavenly, terrestrial just means earthy (or earthly). Telestial is just made up.

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1 hour ago, mordorbund said:

Traditionally, and in general, "eternal" as described in the scriptures in conjunction with divine punishment, meant just that - neverending or endless. Then Joseph Smith received a revelation, and created a new definition. Joseph liked to "corrupt" our language. Stakes are not geographic regions. Wards are geographic, but not ecclesiastic. Your elders are not younger than you. Angels are not dead people. Celestial just means heavenly, terrestrial just means earthy (or earthly). Telestial is just made up.

I'm not sure your point.

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13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Traditionally, and in general, "hell" as described in the scriptures in conjunction with the plan of salvation, is a place.

I don't recall agreeing or disagreeing.  I merely pointed out what the dictionary said.

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12 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Traditionally, and in general, "eternal" as described in the scriptures in conjunction with divine punishment, meant just that - neverending or endless. Then Joseph Smith received a revelation, and created a new definition. Joseph liked to "corrupt" our language. Stakes are not geographic regions. Wards are geographic, but not ecclesiastic. Your elders are not younger than you. Angels are not dead people. Celestial just means heavenly, terrestrial just means earthy (or earthly). Telestial is just made up.

Actually, Joseph didn't make up the part about Eternal.  And although it was the word from God, it was basically a clarification, not really revelation. I don't know why Rob didn't look it up since you asked him directly  But to help him out, I'll post it.  Check out the NOUN definition at the bottom.

Quote

ETER'NAL, adjective [Latin oeternus, composed of oevum and ternus, oeviternus, Varro. The origin of the last component part of the word is not obvious. It occurs in diuturnus, and seems to denote continuance.]

1. Without beginning or end of existence.

2. Without beginning of existence.

3. Without end of existence or duration; everlasting; endless; immortal.

4. Perpetual; ceaseless; continued without intermission.

5. Unchangeable; existing at all times without change; as eternal truth.

ETER'NAL, noun An appellation of God.

Looking at the etymology at the top, it comes from two words: Oevum (age, lifetime, eternity) and Ternus (threefold, indicating continuance).

I'm going to make a guess that the "threefold" is based on the number three being symbolic of the Godhead and spiritual leadership.  Leadership of the Church is in groups of three.  Given that it was an appelation of God, it would make sense.

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