Repentance after death

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I don't recall agreeing or disagreeing.  I merely pointed out what the dictionary said.

Yes, but, for instance- I we are discussing being saved from hell it helps if we are all on the same page as to the meaning of "hell". I say this because in Wade's belief he sees "hell" as incorporation portions of heaven (lower glories) It makes things really confusing. We could both be talking about entirely different things and not realize each other's point.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, Joseph didn't make up the part about Eternal.  And although it was the word from God, it was basically a clarification, not really revelation. I don't know why Rob didn't look it up since you asked him directly  But to help him out, I'll post it.  Check out the NOUN definition at the bottom.

Looking at the etymology at the top, it comes from two words: Oevum (age, lifetime, eternity) and Ternus (threefold, indicating continuance).

I'm going to make a guess that the "threefold" is based on the number three being symbolic of the Godhead and spiritual leadership.  Leadership of the Church is in groups of three.  Given that it was an appelation of God, it would make sense.

I did reply in needing context as the words can and do have different meanings.

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I do believe we can have meaningful conversation but it's going to require we all agree to understanding and agreeing upon a standard definition of very simple words and terms.

That might help, but I don't see it happening for good reason--our LDS beliefs, particularly the nuanced aspects,  don't always fit, or can't be confined to standard definitions..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

32 minutes ago, wenglund said:

That might help, but I don't see it happening for good reason--our LDS beliefs, particularly the nuanced aspects,  don't always fit, or can't be confined to standard definitions..

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

That's kind of like saying we can never understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ or explain it because there are too many nuances and everyone will always be on a different page. That's very weak. I tend to believe the plan of salvation is the most simple doctrine that exists but yet coming in here and discussing it and suddenly it's an impossible task. I don't think Christ wanted his Gospel to be so nuanced with confusing definitions.

[wenglund]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

That's kind of like saying we can never understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ or explain it because there are too many nuances and everyone will always be on a different page. That's very weak. I tend to believe the plan of salvation is the most simple doctrine that exists but yet coming in here and discussing it and suddenly it's an impossible task. I don't think Christ wanted his Gospel to be so nuanced with confusing definitions.

That isn't anywhere close to, let alone "kind of like" what I am saying. But, I can respect that is how you view it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, wenglund said:

That isn't anywhere close to, let alone "kind of like" what I am saying. But, I can respect that is how you view it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

We can't agree on what "hell" is. That's kind of a deal breaker in attempting to discuss the plan of salvation.

[wenglund]

19 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

We can't agree on what "hell" is. That's kind of a deal breaker in attempting to discuss the plan of salvation.

Yes, it is a challenge to fruitfully discussing that topic.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[Rob Osborn]

I found this little gem in TPJS-

"Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is
a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the
kingdom of God, “for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the Kingdom
of God,” said the Savior. It is a sign and a commandment which God has set for man to enter into
His kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; for God will not receive
them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted, for they have not obeyed the
ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him
for, and give him a title to, a celestial glory; and God had decreed that all who will not obey His
voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that
society who have not obeyed His commands." (TPJS pg. 198)

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I found this little gem in TPJS-

"Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is
a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the
kingdom of God, “for except ye are born of water and of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the Kingdom
of God,” said the Savior. It is a sign and a commandment which God has set for man to enter into
His kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; for God will not receive
them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted, for they have not obeyed the
ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him
for, and give him a title to, a celestial glory; and God had decreed that all who will not obey His
voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that
society who have not obeyed His commands." (TPJS pg. 198)

That may have been posted earlier on this or another thread, and it is a statement I think we can all agree upon, though perhaps taking its meaning somewhat differently.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I was reminded today that nuanced thinking can take place even in black and white:

Thanks, Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

In light of our earlier discussion of section 84, Mark Hamstead wrote an illuminating article, published by the Interpreter Foundation, titled: "On Being the Sons of Moses and Aaron: Another Look at Interpreting the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood."

This article will likely not be all that welcomed by those prone to interpreting the scriptures in narrow and rigid terms with only one layer of meaning.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, wenglund said:

In light of our earlier discussion of section 84, Mark Hamstead wrote an illuminating article, published by the Interpreter Foundation, titled: "On Being the Sons of Moses and Aaron: Another Look at Interpreting the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood."

This article will likely not be all that welcomed by those prone to interpreting the scriptures in narrow and rigid terms with only one layer of meaning.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

His article bolsters everything I have been saying- accept the Gospel and repent and be baptized which is the gate then the temple and the priesthood covenants are the path leading to salvation. Failure to comply: damnation in hell.

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, RemnantofJoseph said:

These are God's words to the Nephites:

"And it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings he said unto his disciples: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it; but wide is the gate, and broad the way which leads to death, and many there be that travel therein, until the night (death) cometh, wherein no man can work." (3 Nephi 27:33) 

There are only three scenarios:

1) Those who don't have the law cannot repent and have no need of baptism - This according to Mormon, who lived 400 years after Christ.  The atonement of Jesus Christ is sufficient for these individuals.

2) Those who have the law have need to repent, be baptized and turn to Christ.

3) Those who have the law and choose wickedness and die without repentance are sealed up to the devil.

That's it.

What does it mean to repent?  It means "turn to Christ."  It doesn't mean being sinless.  It doesn't mean sitting in the bishop's office and laying our your peccadillos.  It means "stop what you were doing and turn to Christ."  It's that simple!

As King Benjamin correctly taught his people:

"And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them." (Mosiah 4:29)

No matter what we do we fall short.   This is why we need the Mercies of the Holy One of Israel.  His grace and mercy is sufficient if we sincerely strive to follow Him.

There is an example (there are several, actually) in the holy scriptures where righteous individuals lost all desire to sin.  Those individuals were the Order of Melchizedek:

"Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God." (Entering into the Lord's rest is coming into the Presence of God during one's mortal probation.  Moroni 7 also supports this view).

There are many things to discover in Alma 13 for those who care to prayerfully study it and allow the Holy Spirit to inform them.

The only church I aspire to is the church Our Lord defined:

"Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church."  (D&C 10:67-68, April 1829, a full year before the official organization)

Godspeed.
 

 

 

At the great last day of judgment if we want saved we must be sinless- spotless and pure. Because none of us attain that at death there must be a provision in the next life but before judgment to fully repent from all sin and desire to sin.

[DennisTate]

On 4/6/2018 at 10:30 PM, pam said:

So this is a subject I have a really hard time understanding.  Mainly because I keep seeing so many conflicting opinions on the subject.

So I have always learned that this life is the time to repent and get our lives in order and on the right path.  Yet many say that after death we have the chance to repent so that we can progress.

I understand those that have never had the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ or of the gospel.  I totally get that.  But what of those who didn't do that who did have the opportunity.  Members who chose their own path instead of following the commandments and gospel teachings and principles. 

I guess I just don't get why anyone who chose NOT to repent would get another chance in the next life.  What would be the purpose of our journey and testing in this life?

I realize that this is all between the individual and God but I still get confused over the conflicting opinions.

 

Good question..........

some modern Theoretical Physicist are discussing a variation on Multiverse Theory that could help us to understand Ezekiel chapter 37 better.  

 

If...... G-d wants to replicate a moment in the past..... and then double the amount of the Holy Spirit that is poured out in that moment in time.......

then the future from that moment could be radically altered..... for example......

If G-d were to replicate a moment in 1939.... the Holocaust on the Jewish people could be largely prevented.......

The people who did not repent in the past..... did not repent partly due to the amount of the Holy Spirit that was poured out in

what we think of as the past...... but G-d can easily replicate all human beings who ever lived..... in any moment of time in which they lived.... and G-d does not even have to inform that they have received the Ezekiel 37 resurrection........

 

This is only one possible variation on repentance after death.  

 

This could all fit with II Corinthians 12:2-4. 

[DennisTate]

On 5/6/2018 at 3:29 PM, Rob Osborn said:

Yes, but, for instance- I we are discussing being saved from hell it helps if we are all on the same page as to the meaning of "hell". I say this because in Wade's belief he sees "hell" as incorporation portions of heaven (lower glories) It makes things really confusing. We could both be talking about entirely different things and not realize each other's point.

Excellent point.......

lower levels of glory... could be thought of as being something like hell..... in comparison to the higher levels of glory.  

[zil]

1 hour ago, DennisTate said:

If G-d were to replicate a moment in 1939.... the Holocaust on the Jewish people could be largely prevented.......

We're gonna need time-travel cleanup on Aisle Six!

/threadjack

[DennisTate]

3 minutes ago, zil said:

We're gonna need time-travel cleanup on Aisle Six!

/threadjack

Truly..... I think that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has saved the best wine.... for these latter days.........

 

John 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

[zil]

It was a joke, dude.  Follow the link, read the story.

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, DennisTate said:

Truly..... I think that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has saved the best wine.... for these latter days.........

 

John 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 

I find your post intriguing.  However, last year I visited Israel and was amazed of the many misconceptions I have acquired from the culture I grew up and live in.  One of my opportunities was to visit an ancient winery.  There are 3 products produced at such a winery.  They are wine, best wine or new wine (I did not realize that these were the same) and the final product is bitter wine or what we call vinegar.   The process is what defines the type of wine.  In scripture we find symbolic reference to all three – especially in what we call “Passover” and reference in the suffering of Gethsemane.

Your reference that the Messiah is saving the best or new wine for the last days carries some symbolism I would question – Why best wine and not vinegar?  Do you understand the difference in producing best wine and vinegar and the troubles prophesied to take place in the “Last Days”.  Could you elaborate on your choice of symbolism? Especially why you think the process will favor or is best represented by the production of the best wine?

 

Thanks

The Traveler

Edited July 5, 2018 by Traveler

[DennisTate]

6 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

I find your post intriguing.  However, last year I visited Israel and was amazed of the many misconceptions I have acquired from the culture I grew up and live in.  One of my opportunities was to visit an ancient winery.  There are 3 products produced at such a winery.  They are wine, best wine or new wine (I did not realize that these were the same) and the final product is bitter wine or what we call vinegar.   The process is what defines the type of wine.  In scripture we find symbolic reference to all three – especially in what we call “Passover” and reference in the suffering of Gethsemane.

Your reference that the Messiah is saving the best or new wine for the last days carries some symbolism I would question – Why best wine and not vinegar?  Do you understand the difference in producing best wine and vinegar and the troubles prophesied to take place in the “Last Days”.  Could you elaborate on your choice of symbolism? Especially why you think the process will favor or is best represented by the production of the best wine?

 

Thanks

The Traveler

I am of the belief that a massive Awakening is beginning that will be greater than what began in Acts chapter 2......

I also believe that there may be a connection with these near death experience accounts in which Christians........

or even Atheists for that matter such as Howard Storm Ph. D.... .meet Messiah Yeshua -Jesus and he reviews their lives with them.......

and sends them back on a mission.  

 

I am wondering if the Jewish and Christian Bibles and the book of Mormon would be like old wine...... and 

modern NDE accounts some what like new wine???

 

Because the Latter Day Saints recognize NDE accounts as being in line with II Corinthians 12:2-4 it seems to me that you are in a 

position to lead in this Awakening.......

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

You also have a massive advantage over other churches because you recognize that we truly can repent even after death.......

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.
1Kings 18:21

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Edited July 5, 2018 by DennisTate

[DennisTate]

But I know that many Christians struggle with these accounts..... partly because they are offended that people are shown going to heaven who have not "accepted Yeshua - Jesus" in quite the same manner that they did?!?!

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.htmlHoward Storm:
 

Quote

 

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
... 
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

 

It seems to me that what Howard Storm Ph. D. was shown about events behind the scenes during the Holocaust......

is the kind of new wine that can bring in a massive harvest at this time.  

[Bill "Papa" Lee]

On April 6, 2018 at 9:30 PM, pam said:

So this is a subject I have a really hard time understanding.  Mainly because I keep seeing so many conflicting opinions on the subject.

So I have always learned that this life is the time to repent and get our lives in order and on the right path.  Yet many say that after death we have the chance to repent so that we can progress.

I understand those that have never had the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ or of the gospel.  I totally get that.  But what of those who didn't do that who did have the opportunity.  Members who chose their own path instead of following the commandments and gospel teachings and principles. 

I guess I just don't get why anyone who chose NOT to repent would get another chance in the next life.  What would be the purpose of our journey and testing in this life?

I realize that this is all between the individual and God but I still get confused over the conflicting opinions.

 

IMO, because life did not begin here, nor does it end here, we need God as much as always. The sins in and of the flesh that we commit, require all our efforts to repent of them while we are in the flesh. However, there is no way "anyone" could remember every sin, which is why we need the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Sins are most easily repented of when we do so quickly, much the same as caring for an open wound. The confusion I think is when we discuss those who have rejected Jesus Christ their entire lives, and with every action, these have no hope of afterlife repentance. The real question is this, are those we think of rejecting Jesus Christ, or the teachings that others have concerning him? God only knows the truth, and we should have faith in his judgement. Because unlike the judgements and teachings of men, his judgements and his teachings are righteous. 

[Traveler]

8 hours ago, DennisTate said:

I am of the belief that a massive Awakening is beginning that will be greater than what began in Acts chapter 2......

I also believe that there may be a connection with these near death experience accounts in which Christians........

or even Atheists for that matter such as Howard Storm Ph. D.... .meet Messiah Yeshua -Jesus and he reviews their lives with them.......

and sends them back on a mission.  

 

I am wondering if the Jewish and Christian Bibles and the book of Mormon would be like old wine...... and 

modern NDE accounts some what like new wine???

 

Because the Latter Day Saints recognize NDE accounts as being in line with II Corinthians 12:2-4 it seems to me that you are in a 

position to lead in this Awakening.......

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

You also have a massive advantage over other churches because you recognize that we truly can repent even after death.......

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.
1Kings 18:21

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

The question I asked was if you understood what is anciently meant by new or best wine as opposed to wine and vinegar?  Perhaps once this is understood we can begin to consider why these terms are symbolically used in sacred scripture.

On another note - since you are talking about Baal - do you have any idea who Baal was or why this particular Pagan character as opposed to countless other pagan symbols was such a constant problem in Israel?  I will give you a little hint - Baal was not actually a g-d - at least not in the usual sense that we define gods.

 

The Traveler

[DennisTate]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

The question I asked was if you understood what is anciently meant by new or best wine as opposed to wine and vinegar?  Perhaps once this is understood we can begin to consider why these terms are symbolically used in sacred scripture.

On another note - since you are talking about Baal - do you have any idea who Baal was or why this particular Pagan character as opposed to countless other pagan symbols was such a constant problem in Israel?  I will give you a little hint - Baal was not actually a g-d - at least not in the usual sense that we define gods.

 

The Traveler

Interesting....... by this do you mean that Baal was actually

one of the fallen Watchers, sons of G-d.... .who fell because of the daughters of men

in the time of the Patriarch Enoch?

 

Yes..... I know very little about the difference between old wine, new wine and vinegar......

but I know that when Messiah Yeshua - Jesus made the statement that he would not drink wine again

until the time that he would drink it in his Kingdom..... could mean that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus began the Nazarite vow

near the time of his death????????

But I could be in error on that.....

but at least we know that he also refused to drink even wine vinegar.... which could indicate having taken the Nazarite vow.  

 

Mat 27:34

They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Edited July 6, 2018 by DennisTate
add a scripture

[Traveler]

5 hours ago, DennisTate said:

Interesting....... by this do you mean that Baal was actually

one of the fallen Watchers, sons of G-d.... .who fell because of the daughters of men

in the time of the Patriarch Enoch?

 

Yes..... I know very little about the difference between old wine, new wine and vinegar......

but I know that when Messiah Yeshua - Jesus made the statement that he would not drink wine again

until the time that he would drink it in his Kingdom..... could mean that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus began the Nazarite vow

near the time of his death????????

But I could be in error on that.....

but at least we know that he also refused to drink even wine vinegar.... which could indicate having taken the Nazarite vow.  

 

Mat 27:34

They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

 

A little background on Baal.  He was a demigod, the son of the supreme G-d El and a virgin female mortal.  El was a name for G-d recognized in ancient Hebrew scripture.  Baal was a Messianic character that arose in ancient Mesopotamia that became a popular worship in Egypt at the time of Moses.   There are many parallels to Jesus – like a new star in the heavens at his birth.  He had control over the weather and fought against Mot and Yamen to deliver the souls of human from death.  Interestingly the most popular means of worshiping Baal in ancient Egypt involved a golden calf – which is similar to the Hebrew Red Heifer sacrifice (of Messianic origins).

This is rather condensed but in essence Baal was a Messianic Gentile.  Ifind it interesting that you use this title to define your religious experience.

Now concerning wine.  Anciently in Israel, grapes were brought in bunches and placed in a large stone basin.  The grapes were walked on barefoot – this is because the human foot is padded and will gently press the best or new wine from the grapes.  When this process has removed the best wine then what is left is gathered into loose woven baskets which were stacked and pressed with weights removing most of the remaining juice which is wine but not the best or new wine.  What remains in the baskets is the skins, seeds and stems of the original grapes.  This is then placed in another donut shaped stone basin.  A large stone is rolled around the stone base (usually powered by a donkey) which crushes every last bit of liquid from the grape remains.  This final liquid is called bitter wine or vinegar.   The stone press that creates this bitter liquid is called gethsemane.

 

The Traveler