Missionary Numbers - stats, ugh.


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29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This thread is depressing.

Haha it does. I was sharing this with my wife and we discussed how the wicked are becoming more wicked, the fence sitters are following the moral code of the world more. But the righteous are becoming more righteous.

The church is, without a doubt, stronger now than ever before :)

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

Haha it does. I was sharing this with my wife and we discussed how the wicked are becoming more wicked, the fence sitters are following the moral code of the world more. But the righteous are becoming more righteous.

The church is, without a doubt, stronger now than ever before :)

We have very nice and hardworking leadership!

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2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I think some of the reason is higher standards for conduct and closer monitoring of missionaries. If you talk to some older lds women you may hear some interesting stories about the things that they got up to with missionaries, nothing shocking by worldly standards! For example, one woman who is about 60 told me about hanging out alone with a pair of missionaries in a local graveyard. A man of about 70 here went to France on his mission. He treated his mission as a partial holiday and boasts that he was largely unsupervised. My guess is that currently, unlike previously, missionaries who do not obey rules are sent home. 

I feel like this is so true!

i had a leader that said he had a companion that would regularly smoke in the car. He would also, as a zone leader and assistant,  often have to go out after dark to local parties and drag missionaries out of them.

A lot of things have tightened up. I remember hearing stories and reading talks from old general authorities absolutely throwing down on missionaries. Rebuking then and telling them they need to baptize more and how they aren’t bold enough. He would then go forward and tell a personal mission story where he would go knock on a door and , within a couple hours of teaching and testifying, would take them out back, dam up the stream and baptize them... ya we aren’t allowed to do that anymore x) if it were I would have baptized hundereds in my mission x)

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36 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

This thread is depressing.

Sorry brother. Despite the ups and downs, as you well know, the Lord is still in charge and on our side.

Quote
Be still, my soul: The waves and winds still know
His voice who ruled them while he dwelt below.

 

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3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I think some of the reason is higher standards for conduct and closer monitoring of missionaries. If you talk to some older lds women you may hear some interesting stories about the things that they got up to with missionaries, nothing shocking by worldly standards! For example, one woman who is about 60 told me about hanging out alone with a pair of missionaries in a local graveyard. A man of about 70 here went to France on his mission. He treated his mission as a partial holiday and boasts that he was largely unsupervised. My guess is that currently, unlike previously, missionaries who do not obey rules are sent home. 

There is much closer monitoring of the missionaries today than there was 22 years ago when I went.  I think that it is repressive in a way, and stifles the individual missionaries ability to think for themselves.  Now we have a army of drones who live and die by the rules in many cases to the detriment of the people they are serving.

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5 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Strikes me as a simple unwillingness to repent.

There's a lot of truth in this ^^ statement. A missionary who has grievously broken the law of chastity and sincerely repented is just as worthy to serve a mission as a mission who has not broken the law of chastity. We once had a missionary from our stake who, as an Aaronic Priesthood holder, had sex with his girlfriend. About 3 years later he was on a mission. The bishop of that ward worked with him for maybe a year, helping him repent. I believe that as a result of his sin, his application process took longer than usual although I'm not sure about that. I've heard that, probably as a result of his repentance, he now has quite a powerful testimony of the Atonement. Whether or not a young man decides to serve a mission seems to be at least partially on how much time the bishop is willing to spend working with them to help them repent and prepare. 

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4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

There is much closer monitoring of the missionaries today than there was 22 years ago when I went.  I think that it is repressive in a way, and stifles the individual missionaries ability to think for themselves.  Now we have a army of drones who live and die by the rules in many cases to the detriment of the people they are serving.

I never felt it to be repressive. 

The only time being closely monitored got in the way was when we weren’t doing what we were suppose to be doing. And the people monitored the most were the people that broke the rules on a daily basis.

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6 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

There is much closer monitoring of the missionaries today than there was 22 years ago when I went.  I think that it is repressive in a way, and stifles the individual missionaries ability to think for themselves.  Now we have a army of drones who live and die by the rules in many cases to the detriment of the people they are serving.

On the other hand, in the area where it really matters - teaching - with Preach My Gospel, the missionaries have much more freedom and choice than they did 20 years ago.

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2 hours ago, Fether said:

I never felt it to be repressive. 

The only time being closely monitored got in the way was when we weren’t doing what we were suppose to be doing. And the people monitored the most were the people that broke the rules on a daily basis.

One example, the 5pm dinner rule.  This has to be the single most nonsensical rule I have ever heard of, they have since backed off of it for good reason. How are missionaries supposed to build relationships of trust with the members if the only contact they have with them is through meal appointments and they have to be held at a ridiculous hour? The single greatest resource for referrals is from the members but leadership basicly blocked that with this rule. I may also add the 1 hour for dinner rule that they seem to have. I get it if the missionaries have book ended appointments, but if they have no appointments where are they going to better spend their time? knocking on doors at 6pm-7pm when normal people eat dinner? yeah I am sure that will get them in a lot of doors.

 

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- re stats, dwindling numbers etc, When has this been a game of numbers? Do we want quality converts who know what they are getting into or do we just want to baptize as  many as possible in the hopes we retain a few?...asking for a friend

- why don't kids go on missions? Well since I didn't go I feel kinda qualified to answer that at least as it applied to me. This was mid '80s and not in Utah btw.

First off- I never planned on a mission- went military so there's that. That issue aside, I associated with LDS friends in HS who ranged from 16 to 19 ish. Our group of LDS kids were quite into the party scene. I'm talking everyone there was involved with something having to do with beer, cigs, pot, coke, sex, gambling etc.... Some just dabbled and there were a few others who went all the way in more ways than one. Not all the kids in my ward and surrounding wards were into that, but there were a few dozen. There were two ( I was one of them)in my cohort who did not go on a mission. Here are some observations and my thoughts at the time....at the time being relevant because we want to know why kids are not going on missions.

So there is this party scene. When you are in that you know what everyone else is up to. When they all of a sudden are leaving on a mission and you were partying with them a couple weeks prior one sometimes wonders how that is even possible. That said, I always gave them crap about going on a mission after doing whatever and how they pulled that off...two answers I was given. They either lied their way through the process or they confessed and were then able to go. I'm not one to tattle so their secret was safe with me.

What I didn't understand was how someone could allegedly confess and get sent off just a couple weeks later....for drug use and fornication! And the others who lied...well I guess no one knew any better.

So here I am thinking, "ok this process is supposed to be inspired. Many of these guys are no way even close to being worthy to go on a mission and thru the temple, yet they are. So either it is inspired or not." Beats me because we have guys who lie to go do it and others who confess and allegedly get all repented and all in a matter of a few weeks and then go. At that point I was like ok well definitely not an inspired process because they are letting anyone with a heartbeat go and some of these guys made me look like peter priesthood. Frankly I had no business going. The difference between me and them was I was at least honest about not being worthy and others were not, yet I and my friend were treated like trash because we didn't go.

So nowadays the bar has been raised. What is interesting is just from the knowledge of my own little social experiment which is very unscientific, I would venture to say there are at least a few bishops out there who in their day wouldn't have cut it, yet here they are vetting a kid for a standard they (at the time) never met. Interesting.

Another aspect to look at- where I grew up the parents had some money, not tons and many of the kids were promised cars and paid for college when they got back. If they didn't go, they didn't get it. I was also presented with that option. I didn't go and had to pay for everything on my own. Fair deal.

...bottom line- at the time I felt that if you could lie your way into a mission, then it wasn't true anyway. Even if it was I wasn't going because I had another plan so it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

-Coming home from missions early. In my own ward and stake we have had tons leave and come right back (within 6 mos). I have no idea why other than in a couple cases and that was one unresolved sin and the others were they just hated it and came home (my son was the source of that feedback). I'm not going to pretend to know how hard it is to be away from home that long doing mission stuff so I am not going to criticize anyone for coming back early.  I think that they are because it has been made easy to do so and maybe even acceptable.

When I went to boot camp, I can tell you that for a couple weeks I probably would have left and so would many others if we were allowed to. Problem was you would get tossed in the clink and then prosecuted for AWOL before being dishonorable discharged. The reason I may have taken off was the first two weeks of constant harassment, no sleep, crappy food, incessant name calling and berating your mother, your religion, your race or anything else they could find to humiliate you and berate you. Not to mention the constant grass drills and never ending physical punishment. It literally was a painful experience to even move much less breathe. It was just a tad uncomfortable and after a few weeks once everyone decided they would act as a team it was ok. I say this because it was not really a problem and even enjoyable after a while to put up with their crap because I wanted to be there. When you are motivated, it is easier to do difficult things. When you are not, it can be a prison sentence.

I feel many of these kids don't even want to go and given the very regimented environment they are in, they just bail out when the drama exceeds their willingness to tolerate it...whatever that drama may be. So if they are motivated and actually wanted to go then their odds of staying are much higher than someone who's arm got twisted or their parents bribed them. How many kids fall into either category is unknown. 

I always told my kids if they wanted to go, then go because you want to go and it is the right thing to do. If you do go- do a good job and finish it. I'll never even try and persuade you to go and I never bugged them about it. They decided according to their motivations and convictions not mine.

Edited by paracaidista508
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@paracaidista508 Hi there! Thanks for your insights! As a church, we have some thorny issues to work through and we won’t solve them without facing up to some of the hard truths that you mention here.

I personally had a very hard time with this one:

here I am thinking, "ok this process is supposed to be inspired. Many of these guys are no way even close to being worthy to go on a mission and thru the temple, yet they are. So either it is inspired or not."

I converted as a teenager but left at age 21. I could feel Heavenly Father calling me home decades later. I was reluctant to resume membership although I did try to help out when people needed me. I knew the ‘backstage’ of many lds families because I babysat, helped on service projects and generally filled in as needed. Holy Smokes! Some of those Mormons! I am amazed that their families did not kill them! I had some difficulty believing that the church was true despite the whispering of the spirit. How could such awful people have the gospel? Well, we know the truth of a lot of things and sadly it does not change our behaviour. We know ‘Too much food = too fat.’ We are still fat!

The thing is that the most holy amongst us, bearing the Savior, have our good and bad parts. (Although I think the Brethern have managed to squash most of the bad out!) Still even Paul had enough of a bad side to split up with his companion. In brief, yes you can fool a bishop. The poor overworked sod is frequently doing his best but he has his off days and, poor sod, sometimes off months and maybe an off year. It’s a high standard and one, I could not meet.

Here’s a funny story for you. I had a date with a handsome lds man. I arrived with my ‘For The Strength Of Youth’ pamphlet ready to discuss how we would conduct ourselves on this date. He threw the pamphlet across the room and explained that, THAT thing did not apply to us. Not long later, that man was a branch president. No doubt he had some interesting interviews over the contents of that pamphlet! Anyway, he seemed to be doing a good job! So sometimes, a sudden shock to the system may be what people need.

Remember the story from the early church of the man who heard that he was called on a mission who spit out the tobacco and went to pack? Sometimes we rise to the occasion! 

Edited by Sunday21
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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

 I knew the ‘backstage’ of many lds families because I babysat, helped on service projects and generally filled in as needed. Holy Smokes! Some of those Mormons! I am amazed that their families did not kill them! I had some difficulty believing that the church was true despite the whispering of the spirit. How could such awful people have the gospel?

My family is/was hardcore LDS. One could very easily call them total hardliners, but they were not abusive or evil. They probably would have given me anything i asked if I promised to go on a mission...I am sure of that. Anything to get me to go. It was very humiliating to them for me to not go. Long lineage in the church...pioneers on both sides and the whole bit. They freaked out when I acted on my decision. That said, they cooled off and treated me well. My leadership in the ward , not so much. I think most LDS families don't wig out too much over kids not serving a mission. What do you do tell them they are evil and kick them out of the family???If that was the normal practice, then the religion itself may need examining. 

One can also find this same behavior in some families with a long history of males serving in the military (or a number of other things). I had a Platoon Leader who went to VMI, ranger school and then onto the infantry because his whole family did and he was too. He openly despised and talked poorly of the us army. He eventually went away because of it. We hated having the leader who wasn't into the game. 

Well, we know the truth of a lot of things and sadly it does not change our behavior. We know ‘Too much food = too fat.’ We are still fat! Yep...too much donuts for me

 

 

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12 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

There is much closer monitoring of the missionaries today than there was 22 years ago when I went.  I think that it is repressive in a way, and stifles the individual missionaries ability to think for themselves.  Now we have a army of drones who live and die by the rules in many cases to the detriment of the people they are serving.

So... obedient missionaries hurts missionary work? 

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2 hours ago, paracaidista508 said:

- re stats, dwindling numbers etc, When has this been a game of numbers? Do we want quality converts who know what they are getting into or do we just want to baptize as  many as possible in the hopes we retain a few?...asking for a friend

- why don't kids go on missions? Well since I didn't go I feel kinda qualified to answer that at least as it applied to me. This was mid '80s and not in Utah btw.

First off- I never planned on a mission- went military so there's that. That issue aside, I associated with LDS friends in HS who ranged from 16 to 19 ish. Our group of LDS kids were quite into the party scene. I'm talking everyone there was involved with something having to do with beer, cigs, pot, coke, sex, gambling etc.... Some just dabbled and there were a few others who went all the way in more ways than one. Not all the kids in my ward and surrounding wards were into that, but there were a few dozen. There were two ( I was one of them)in my cohort who did not go on a mission. Here are some observations and my thoughts at the time....at the time being relevant because we want to know why kids are not going on missions.

So there is this party scene. When you are in that you know what everyone else is up to. When they all of a sudden are leaving on a mission and you were partying with them a couple weeks prior one sometimes wonders how that is even possible. That said, I always gave them crap about going on a mission after doing whatever and how they pulled that off...two answers I was given. They either lied their way through the process or they confessed and were then able to go. I'm not one to tattle so their secret was safe with me.

What I didn't understand was how someone could allegedly confess and get sent off just a couple weeks later....for drug use and fornication! And the others who lied...well I guess no one knew any better.

So here I am thinking, "ok this process is supposed to be inspired. Many of these guys are no way even close to being worthy to go on a mission and thru the temple, yet they are. So either it is inspired or not." Beats me because we have guys who lie to go do it and others who confess and allegedly get all repented and all in a matter of a few weeks and then go. At that point I was like ok well definitely not an inspired process because they are letting anyone with a heartbeat go and some of these guys made me look like peter priesthood. Frankly I had no business going. The difference between me and them was I was at least honest about not being worthy and others were not, yet I and my friend were treated like trash because we didn't go.

So nowadays the bar has been raised. What is interesting is just from the knowledge of my own little social experiment which is very unscientific, I would venture to say there are at least a few bishops out there who in their day wouldn't have cut it, yet here they are vetting a kid for a standard they (at the time) never met. Interesting.

Another aspect to look at- where I grew up the parents had some money, not tons and many of the kids were promised cars and paid for college when they got back. If they didn't go, they didn't get it. I was also presented with that option. I didn't go and had to pay for everything on my own. Fair deal.

...bottom line- at the time I felt that if you could lie your way into a mission, then it wasn't true anyway. Even if it was I wasn't going because I had another plan so it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

-Coming home from missions early. In my own ward and stake we have had tons leave and come right back (within 6 mos). I have no idea why other than in a couple cases and that was one unresolved sin and the others were they just hated it and came home (my son was the source of that feedback). I'm not going to pretend to know how hard it is to be away from home that long doing mission stuff so I am not going to criticize anyone for coming back early.  I think that they are because it has been made easy to do so and maybe even acceptable.

When I went to boot camp, I can tell you that for a couple weeks I probably would have left and so would many others if we were allowed to. Problem was you would get tossed in the clink and then prosecuted for AWOL before being dishonorable discharged. The reason I may have taken off was the first two weeks of constant harassment, no sleep, crappy food, incessant name calling and berating your mother, your religion, your race or anything else they could find to humiliate you and berate you. Not to mention the constant grass drills and never ending physical punishment. It literally was a painful experience to even move much less breathe. It was just a tad uncomfortable and after a few weeks once everyone decided they would act as a team it was ok. I say this because it was not really a problem and even enjoyable after a while to put up with their crap because I wanted to be there. When you are motivated, it is easier to do difficult things. When you are not, it can be a prison sentence.

I feel many of these kids don't even want to go and given the very regimented environment they are in, they just bail out when the drama exceeds their willingness to tolerate it...whatever that drama may be. So if they are motivated and actually wanted to go then their odds of staying are much higher than someone who's arm got twisted or their parents bribed them. How many kids fall into either category is unknown. 

I always told my kids if they wanted to go, then go because you want to go and it is the right thing to do. If you do go- do a good job and finish it. I'll never even try and persuade you to go and I never bugged them about it. They decided according to their motivations and convictions not mine.

 So... this boils down to... People don't go on missions because they don't want to or don't qualify. 

Well... yeah. 

The question is why don't they want to? Why are they unwilling to prepare and qualify themselves?

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Well, we know the truth of a lot of things and sadly it does not change our behaviour. We know ‘Too much food = too fat.’ We are still fat!

It boils down to preference. Does one prefer donuts to thinness?

Welcome to agency. Right?

Enticed by two things, one on the one hand, the other on the other. Choose.  

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51 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 So... this boils down to... People don't go on missions because they don't want to or don't qualify. 

Well... yeah. 

The question is why don't they want to? Why are they unwilling to prepare and qualify themselves?

Perhaps their limited experience growing up makes them not want to. 

Maybe their older brother is an rm and tells them his mission sucked,,,,worst two years ever. Or a friend who writes and tells them that.

Maybe they dont have a testimony.

Maybe they are tired of their hardliner parents banging their fist on the kitchen table ordering them to do......insert standard momon task of any type....

Perhaps they have a girlfriend and won't leave her

Maybe they just flat out don't feel like it

Maybe these days they feel they can actually make their own decision as opposed to being forced to go by their parents.

Perhaps they don't actually believe they are a bad person for not going

Maybe they found out  that many lds girls will marry a non rm contrary to what others may say

Maybe they are not going because it really isn't mandatory despite many who will claim it is. Make it mandatory and ex comm anyone who doesn't go.

Right or wrong, everyone who doesn't go has their own reasons. I feel today's youth stand up for themselves a bit more than in the past.....and some have parents like me who actually let them make their own decision as opposed to just telling them what to do.

Take your pick....collectively many are not too excited to go so I guess Houston has a problem. 

 

I have an idea...let's start compulsory military service in this country and the only exception being serving your particular church for 2 years full time. We all know how many lds consider the military to be a rather poor choice of vocations....watch them flock to the mtc.

 

Edited by paracaidista508
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50 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 So... this boils down to... People don't go on missions because they don't want to or don't qualify. 

Well... yeah. 

The question is why don't they want to? Why are they unwilling to prepare and qualify themselves?

Another thing to consider....They are kids. We can't even get our adult membership in the church to always do the right thing. Good luck with the kids. Unless we send them when they are 8, this will always be a problem.

Edited by paracaidista508
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7 hours ago, paracaidista508 said:

 We all know how many lds consider the military to be a rather poor choice of vocations....watch them flock to the mtc.

(not trying to derail)
I've never heard that sentiment, rather the exact opposite.

I grew up my whole life in an active Mormon military family, father is a retired colonel. Every base, every Ward had many military families. Our current Bishop just retired from the Air Force. We have 10 active duty military families currently in a our Ward right now (7 Air Force, 2 Army & 1 Navy - joint forces base real close to us). Apart from active duty we have about another 5 retired. I can't speak for the Army, but the Air Force is full of Mormons.

(okay, back to the missionaries;))

Edited by NeedleinA
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8 hours ago, paracaidista508 said:

Perhaps their limited experience growing up makes them not want to. 

Maybe their older brother is an rm and tells them his mission sucked,,,,worst two years ever. Or a friend who writes and tells them that.

Maybe they dont have a testimony.

Maybe they are tired of their hardliner parents banging their fist on the kitchen table ordering them to do......insert standard momon task of any type....

Perhaps they have a girlfriend and won't leave her

Maybe they just flat out don't feel like it

Maybe these days they feel they can actually make their own decision as opposed to being forced to go by their parents.

Perhaps they don't actually believe they are a bad person for not going

Maybe they found out  that many lds girls will marry a non rm contrary to what others may say

Maybe they are not going because it really isn't mandatory despite many who will claim it is. Make it mandatory and ex comm anyone who doesn't go.

Right or wrong, everyone who doesn't go has their own reasons. I feel today's youth stand up for themselves a bit more than in the past.....and some have parents like me who actually let them make their own decision as opposed to just telling them what to do.

Take your pick....collectively many are not too excited to go so I guess Houston has a problem. 

 

I have an idea...let's start compulsory military service in this country and the only exception being serving your particular church for 2 years full time. We all know how many lds consider the military to be a rather poor choice of vocations....watch them flock to the mtc.

 

Yes, yes. Maybe and maybe and maybe.

But the thing I would think is interesting to consider is what might be more of the root cause of the increase/decrease in willingness. Where is the core failing? Is it just society at large being driven towards carnality and more youth are buying into that? Is is parenting? Is it public schooling? Etc.

You're discussing, even here still, the nature(s) of the individual(s) -- which are going to be individual...and quite varied. I'm interested in the larger sociological issues.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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2 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

(not trying to derail)
I've never heard that sentiment, rather the exact opposite.

I grew up my whole life in an active Mormon military family, father is a retired colonel. Every base, every Ward had many military families. Our current Bishop just retired from the Air Force. We have 10 active duty military families currently in a our Ward right now (7 Air Force, 2 Army & 1 Navy - joint forces base real close to us). Apart from active duty we have about another 5 retired. I can't speak for the Army, but the Air Force is full of Mormons.

(okay, back to the missionaries;))

I've heard it.  Utah is sometimes used as a stat in this.  I can't recall the exact numbers, but it was like only .5% of Mormons actually enlist compared to like 5% of the rest of the population of the US or something to that effect.  It was like Mormons and especially Utah had half the percent joining that other groups had or something similar.

Does it really matter though?

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Where is the core failing? Is it just society at large being driven towards carnality and more youth are buying into that? Is is parenting? Is it public schooling?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Society is failing. Thats why you are seeing a shift in the church to stop, gather, and circle the wagons. We are under attack.

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4 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yes, yes, and yes.

Society is failing. Thats why you are seeing a shift in the church to stop, gather, and circle the wagons. We are under attack.

Agreed. To be clear, I wasn't necessarily asking in terms of "I don't know', but more rhetorically. I think the answer is obvious enough that the question makes the point.

Our youth are clearly being influenced by the carnality of the world.

The purpose of the questions is meant to lead to the natural question that follows: What do we do about it?

That answer should be obvious too, but varies, of course, based on one's role relative to the youth.

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49 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I've heard it.  Utah is sometimes used as a stat in this.  I can't recall the exact numbers, but it was like only .5% of Mormons actually enlist compared to like 5% of the rest of the population of the US or something to that effect.  It was like Mormons and especially Utah had half the percent joining that other groups had or something similar.

Does it really matter though?

As a church we focus on the importance of getting as much education as possible, this can easily explain any stigma associated with a youth joining the military at the "enlisted" level of service. I too would try to sway my sons away from joining the military if they only wanted to do so as an enlisted member. Can I see Mormons trying to sway youth away from this, yes, but not as a function of avoiding the military, but rather a function of them needing to get an education/degree and entering as a commissioned officer instead.

Edited by NeedleinA
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