Missionary Numbers - stats, ugh.


NeedleinA
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1 minute ago, erog84 said:

I don't think some general views by certain people over the past 40 years represent every young mans struggle today with pornography.  Pornography is in much more abundance at such a younger age, that I personally feel like it is a lot more difficult issue for young men in 2018 than it was in 1980 on a whole (everyone is different).

You may be right. In at least some sense, you doubtless are. But you and FoolsMock seem to miss the point of my post, which was not directly in response to the OP. Rather, it was a sad, perhaps even bitter, comment on how the world, including too many Church members, receive correction and advice of our leaders -- long denying even the very existence of any problem, or disputing how bad it really is, or arguing over whether the Church is approaching it in the correct manner, only in the end to despair at how awful their situation is and how the Church and its old-fart members could not possibly understand the depths of their pain.

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4 minutes ago, Vort said:

You may be right. In at least some sense, you doubtless are. But you and FoolsMock seem to miss the point of my post, which was not directly in response to the OP. Rather, it was a sad, perhaps even bitter, comment on how the world, including too many Church members, receive correction and advice of our leaders -- long denying even the very existence of any problem, or disputing how bad it really is, or arguing over whether the Church is approaching it in the correct manner, only in the end to despair at how awful their situation is and how the Church and its old-fart members could not possibly understand the depths of their pain.

There is definitely plenty of people that fall into that.

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This is a long thread and I can’t comment on everything but I’d like to make a few observations.

I was in Brazil on my mission in the mid 80’s. We were expected to do more then 70 hours of proselyting  per week. You couldn't do that if you obeyed the rules. We were expected to not eat dinner until we returned home at 9:30. Therefore the mission president required us to break the rule of dinner from 5:00 to 6:00. 

I basically obeyed the rules but didn’t freak out over getting home a few minutes early or late  I remember doing splits with an AP who insisted that we stay on the street until 9:30 and insisted that you could not get blessings if you went home early. He wasn’t concerned about getting home a few minutes late though.  I thought, who would want you knocking at their door at 9:25pm?

There was a nickname for APs which which was assistente GH which stood for glória dos homens, or glory of men. 

On my mission we always had tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of non members in our area. The stake where I now live is in a high LDS population area. There are only something like fifteen hundred non members in our stake yet we have three sets of missionaries in our stake and very few baptisms.

If the members were doing their duty there would be little need for missionaries in areas where there is a large LDS population. My brother lives in Rexburg, Idaho he told me ther are only two households in his ward that are non member.

I haven’t kept in contact with most of the people I baptized but I have kept on contact with one family. We baptized the mother and two young sons. The father was not ready. Another son was born to the family later. This third son went on a mission to a the state of Washington. He returned to Brazil and was married in the temple. One of the older brothers went inactive and was killed in a motorcycle accident. This incident was a wake up call to the father who was then baptized by his youngest son and the family was sealed in the Temple. The son of the oldest brother has also been on a mission and is married in the temple. I can’t take credit for all of this, I just happened to be the missionary who was there when they were ready to hear the gospel, but I feel that even if this family is the only family I baptized which is still active in the church then my mission was a success. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

How could I forget about the amazing @An Investigator-nothing but love from across the pond! 

But we're the exceptions, not the rule.  

Yes, In my opinion it's because its very difficult as it requires a huge commitment which requires a lot of change, in the UK the Church is quite small so not much social interaction outside Sunday, a lot of the people converting to the Church are having really rough times and the Gospel will help eventually, when they are more spiritually self reliant, until then these people need help and our small wards cannot give them the support they need.  I have never regretted joining though... been frustrated by people at times, but the Gospel is perfect the people are not, I consider myself extremely blessed :) 

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On 4/9/2018 at 3:08 PM, NeedleinA said:

We had our stake conference here recently. The Mission president lives in our stake, so he or his wife are frequent speakers.
He shared the following (paraphrasing):

Yikes.
I realize that numbers should drop off after the initial age wave/transition but to drop that sharply, yikes.
The youth in our ward are at about a 1 in 5 rate of eligible age young men going on a mission. It feels like pulling teeth over here.

Back in my day, a mission wasn't a wish-wash touchy feely subject... you went.
Today, I don't get that feel at all from the youth in our stake, it is way more of an optional "if" you feel like it.
I wonder were the "optional" sentiment comes from as I don't see the parents I know of being the source of this shift?
 

When I went on my mission ca. 1967 there were around two million members and twenty thousand missionaries. Now there are around fifteen million members and around 60-70 thousand missionaries. As a percentage of the membership, the missionary ratio has plummeted. 

 

That’s very discouraging if I’m running the Church. 

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4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

When I went on my mission ca. 1967 there were around two million members and twenty thousand missionaries. Now there are around fifteen million members and around 60-70 thousand missionaries. As a percentage of the membership, the missionary ratio has plummeted. 

 

That’s very discouraging if I’m running the Church. 

Well, part of it is that the LDS leadership seems to have a target number in mind.  When it goes above that number they add requirements and get stricter on who can go and who cannot.  When it goes under (not really happened for a while) they seem to get FAR more lax on the requirements.

I don't think they are discouraged yet...but if missionary numbers keep sinking (and a lot of that probably has to do with the restrictions they've put in place in regards to mental disabilities...such as dyslexia (of all things)...and other things I would not consider that great of a handicap) they might start to rethink how they are running the program and who are being allowed to go and the encouragements they have to get people to go on their missions.

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Thank you all for all of your responses thus far. This question reached a conclusion/answer in our Ward recently.
Last week in Ward Council, with Stake Leadership there (Ward Conference), this topic was brought up in a big way. Our Bishop sat quite as we all talked about it. Once we had finished our thoughts, he said (paraphrasing):

"I love the priests in our Ward (with tears starting to come), this problem is not from a lack of understanding that they should go, they are very painfully aware that they should be going on missions... it is a result of them struggling with personal problems - sin and being too nervous too fully open up about it and get things back on track."

Tender/sad moment for him.

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So the options are:

a) Help the Priests get these problems solved now, before they go on a mission

b) Help them get these problems solved later, in which case it might be too late for a mission

c) They end up unresolved, in which case those Priests might end up leaving the church. 

a) Seems to be the best option. It sounds like some lessons on the blessing of repentance, the fruits of repentance, the power of the Atonement, and the depth of our Saviour's love for us might be helpful. I wish more people could be helped to see that repentance is something to be desired and thankful for and not something to be feared an avoided. 

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4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

 I wish more people could be helped to see that repentance is something to be desired and thankful for and not something to be feared an avoided. 

Great point.

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I can't possibly read the entire discussion, but I didn't serve a mission. Partly, because I had a problem with authority when I was a young man and partly because I wanted to get married. I knew a lot of people who didn't serve a mission because they waited until they graduated college and then decided to get married. I think there are lots of reasons that young people don't want to serve a mission or if they do there are lots of reasons they feel they can't and honestly if one of my younger cousins or nephews asked my advice I would probably tell them it isn't a big deal if you serve a mission or decide to do something else. 

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Related issues.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mormon-support-gay-marriage-gradually-grows-192425526.html

I honestly believe that the LGBT movement gaining traction among the saints is what is the main driving force behind less religious devotion in our faith as well as other faiths.

40% of Mormons (self-identified) now favor gay marriage.  I'm having trouble accepting that Catholics and Muslims were much higher.  But there are the numbers.

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13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Related issues.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mormon-support-gay-marriage-gradually-grows-192425526.html

I honestly believe that the LGBT movement gaining traction among the saints is what is the main driving force behind less religious devotion in our faith as well as other faiths.

40% of Mormons (self-identified) now favor gay marriage.  I'm having trouble accepting that Catholics and Muslims were much higher.  But there are the numbers.

Yes, the data points it out.  Something like 80% of Individuals who support LGBTetc. believe right and wrong is situational, they believe in God, but basically believe that everyone will be saved-i.e. it doesn't really matter what you do.

It is a great scourge.

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On 4/29/2018 at 1:59 AM, askandanswer said:

I wish more people could be helped to see that repentance is something to be desired and thankful for and not something to be feared an avoided. 

I think one of the problems is that when people are taught over and over that sexual sins are next to murder (something that I think may be a misunderstanding of Alma 39:5) it makes discussing with the bishop, something even as benign as masturbation, a thing to be feared and dreaded. 

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I honestly believe that the LGBT movement gaining traction among the saints is what is the main driving force behind less religious devotion in our faith as well as other faiths.

40% of Mormons (self-identified) now favor gay marriage.  I'm having trouble accepting that Catholics and Muslims were much higher.  But there are the numbers.

I believe that when you have a dear friend or relative come out as gay you begin to see the issue in a new light and with a new perspective. 

While I don’t expect the church to change its stance on gay marriage, I am willing to accept that homosexuals should not be denied love, companionship and intimacy just because they don’t live up to our standard and expectation of love and marriage. 

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2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I am willing to accept that homosexuals should not be denied love, companionship and intimacy just because they don’t live up to our standard and expectation of love and marriage. 

I accept that as well, as long as it is not in the context of a homosexual relationship.  I'm surprised that any Mormon would accept it in such a context..

For the record:  I didn't have any kind of a change in perspective simply because my oldest brother came out as gay.  I still expected the same doctrines and beliefs that we hold dear to be held inviolate.

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5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Related issues.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mormon-support-gay-marriage-gradually-grows-192425526.html

I honestly believe that the LGBT movement gaining traction among the saints is what is the main driving force behind less religious devotion in our faith as well as other faiths.

40% of Mormons (self-identified) now favor gay marriage.  I'm having trouble accepting that Catholics and Muslims were much higher.  But there are the numbers.

I read the article, but I'd love to see the data set and questions.  Wording is everything.  

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34 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I accept that as well, as long as it is not in the context of a homosexual relationship.  I'm surprised that any Mormon would accept it in such a context..

You may have misunderstood me because what I am saying is that I accept that homosexuals should not be denied love, companionship and intimacy within a homosexual relationship just be that view of marriage does not live up to our expectations and standards of marriage. To each his own. Like I said I’m sure the church will never change its stance but I’m not personally going to deny marriage to gay couples. 

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3 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I believe that when you have a dear friend or relative come out as gay you begin to see the issue in a new light and with a new perspective. 

While I don’t expect the church to change its stance on gay marriage, I am willing to accept that homosexuals should not be denied love, companionship and intimacy just because they don’t live up to our standard and expectation of love and marriage. 

It's not our standard.  It's Christ's.  Furthermore, this life is a knot on an infinite thread.  You'd rather they be denied eternal happiness in the Celestial Kingdom rather than miss the sin?

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

It's not our standard.  It's Christ's.  Furthermore, this life is a knot on an infinite thread.  You'd rather they be denied eternal happiness in the Celestial Kingdom rather than miss the sin?

Those I know would say that the celestial kingdom would be hell if they could not be with the one they love. 

However speaking in the broader view, as a member of the church I’m not going to deny gay marriage to those of other faiths just because our faith denies it. 

Within the church as far as I know we still have free agency. Therefore if gay members choose gay marriage that is between them and the Lord. It is not for me to decide what is best for others or force them into compliance. That was Satan’s plan. 

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2 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Those I know would say that the celestial kingdom would be hell if they could not be with the one they love. 

 

If "those you know" are saying the Celestial Kingdom is Hell without SSA, then you need to "know" some better people.

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

However speaking in the broader view, as a member of the church I’m not going to deny gay marriage to those of other faiths just because our faith denies it. 

 

Neither would I.  That's what Agency is all about.  Jesus isn't going to compel you to stop sinning.

4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Within the church as far as I know we still have free agency. Therefore if gay members choose gay marriage that is between them and the Lord. It is not for me to decide what is best for others or force them into compliance. That was Satan’s plan. 

1

Again, of course.  We aren't going to deny anyone anything.  Except, of course, membership in the church, a Temple Recommend, and any of the ordinances that go along with it.  Gay marriage, now THAT'S Satan's plan.

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