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15 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Next week, when a "study" comes out that a glass of wine a day is perfectly fine, no one here will believe it. 

I think there have been plenty of studies that show this to be the case. And I'm pretty sure everyone here believes it. (Edit: I should add...related to health. No faithful LDS thinks a glass of wine a day is perfectly fine morally).

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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20 hours ago, Maureen said:

And like with anything, moderation is the key.

Exactly. That's the key with most substances, with the exception of course for things like crystal meth. 

The irony is that I've seen both the left and the right use the "this study proves X" thing. The left does it with junk food, second hand smoke, and anything chemical . While the right does it with drinking, marijuana usage, and I'm sure there are other things. 

It's human nature. We like feeling intelligent and moral-and when a supposedly third party, "objective" study proves something we already believe, we all want to promote it because we think it justifies us to some degree. 

I think that the church has every right to forbid whatever they'd like too, of course. And members shouldn't be allowed in the temple if they partake in what the church forbids.

Edited by MormonGator
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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Back to the OP- 

This is how "studies" work-If we like what the results are, they must be true! If we don't like what the results are, then it's clearly false. Classic confirmation bias. Next week, when a "study" comes out that a glass of wine a day is perfectly fine, no one here will believe it. 

The truth is that most of these studies are flawed in some way, no matter what they say. 

+1

i'm as guilty as anyone in quoting a study whose results i happen to like.  But i'm honestly not sure correlation can be separated from causation most of the time.  So many factors at play.  It's always a good thing to find out who is paying for the study too.  :)   

And please don't mistake, i've never had any alcohol - but i know a lot of people who can keep the word of wisdom and have problems way more serious than drinking a glass of wine on occasion.

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1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

+1

i'm as guilty as anyone in quoting a study whose results i happen to like.  But i'm honestly not sure correlation can be separated from causation most of the time.  So many factors at play.  It's always a good thing to find out who is paying for the study too.  :)   

And please don't mistake, i've never had any alcohol - but i know a lot of people who can keep the word of wisdom and have problems way more serious than drinking a glass of wine on occasion.

Agree 100% with what you said, and I'm just as guilty of course. In fact, I've been called out (correctly) for sharing "studies" that I like on Facebook. So mea culpa. 

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20 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Next week, when a "study" comes out that a glass of wine a day is perfectly fine, no one here will believe it.

I would be the exception to @The Folk Prophet, "And I'm pretty sure everyone here believes it." I don't place my trust in the arm of flesh. One study will come out one year, and the following year a different study will negate the previous study.

People can continue to believe that somehow scientific research is absolute, but until they know exactly the human body, how it works (like God), and know exactly how the elements affect the body -- the scientific research is subjective.

I wouldn't believe it. Too many variables that are in these studies for them to accurately say it is because of the wine and not their healthy life-style.

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2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Well, that's new :P

"So Gator, do you have faults?"
"Yes, but only when I'm playing tennis." 

Edited by MormonGator
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2 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

No one is playing a trivial game. I can read the scripture same as you and it says what it says. They (leadership) changed by policy how we as members practice and follow the word of wisdom they didn't change the word of wisdom, they didn't change the standard works.  They can change it back or add to it as needed. You want to use the 9th article of faith as your substantiation fine with me. I am entitled to my opinion on the subject.

I'm going to take a middle ground here.  I do NOT THINK the Word of Wisdom has changed.  It was given a LONG time ago for all the Saints to follow.  It is doctrine and has been in the church for decades.

Early in the church many members did not follow the Word of Wisdom, and overall, there was no impetus to cause them to follow the Word of Wisdom.  There was an apostle that was even notorious for not following the Word of Wisdom blatantly.

What changed WAS a change of policy.  One of those policy changes was that in order to go to the temple one needed to be trying to at least keep a bare minimum in regards to following the Word of Wisdom.  This did not change what the Word of Wisdom was or that faithful Mormons should already be following it.  Even the aforementioned apostle acknowledged on multiple occasions that Mormons should be following the Word of Wisdom and the prophet admonished that all do so.

Thus it has always been a commandment that even the weakest should be able to follow.  The difference is that now there is a policy in place where if one does not follow the Word of Wisdom, there are some incentives to inspire them to do so.  These policies were inspired by revelation from the Prophets and apostles in our modern time.

Even today, many members do not follow the Word of Wisdom.  This normally does not mean they are kicked out of the church or any other function similar to that.  They are still members, however, they may have trouble obtaining a temple recommend.  They are accepted as our fellow brothers and sisters in the church and with the Lord. 

Most do not follow the Word of Wisdom strictly.  We may keep the bare minimum of what the Word of Wisdom is explained to be today (no coffee, tea, or alcohol, no smoking or chewing tobacco), but there are various other strictures in it that we do not follow.  I probably eat far too much meat, and especially do badly with this in the Spring, Summer and Fall with the many bar-b-ques I participate in. 

However, the Word of Wisdom is, has been, and at least for the foreseeable future, is a doctrine found in our scriptures.  It is something that we should strive to follow, and something taught from the time of Joseph Smith to our present time today.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm going to take a middle ground here.  I do NOT THINK the Word of Wisdom has changed.  It was given a LONG time ago for all the Saints to follow.  It is doctrine and has been in the church for decades.

Early in the church many members did not follow the Word of Wisdom, and overall, there was no impetus to cause them to follow the Word of Wisdom.  There was an apostle that was even notorious for not following the Word of Wisdom blatantly.

What changed WAS a change of policy.  One of those policy changes was that in order to go to the temple one needed to be trying to at least keep a bare minimum in regards to following the Word of Wisdom.  This did not change what the Word of Wisdom was or that faithful Mormons should already be following it.  Even the aforementioned apostle acknowledged on multiple occasions that Mormons should be following the Word of Wisdom and the prophet admonished that all do so.

Thus it has always been a commandment that even the weakest should be able to follow.  The difference is that now there is a policy in place where if one does not follow the Word of Wisdom, there are some incentives to inspire them to do so.  These policies were inspired by revelation from the Prophets and apostles in our modern time.

Even today, many members do not follow the Word of Wisdom.  This normally does not mean they are kicked out of the church or any other function similar to that.  They are still members, however, they may have trouble obtaining a temple recommend.  They are accepted as our fellow brothers and sisters in the church and with the Lord. 

Most do not follow the Word of Wisdom strictly.  We may keep the bare minimum of what the Word of Wisdom is explained to be today (no coffee, tea, or alcohol, no smoking or chewing tobacco), but there are various other strictures in it that we do not follow.  I probably eat far too much meat, and especially do badly with this in the Spring, Summer and Fall with the many bar-b-ques I participate in. 

However, the Word of Wisdom is, has been, and at least for the foreseeable future, is a doctrine found in our scriptures.  It is something that we should strive to follow, and something taught from the time of Joseph Smith to our present time today.

This was a very interesting insight. I must ponder upon it.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I probably eat far too much meat,

My wife and I are trying out the Keto diet right now. I'm not sure how to reconcile that with eating meat sparingly beyond the fact that we are doing it for health reasons, and the Word of Wisdom boils down to being healthy. (Spirit of the Law -- interesting tie in)

For example: If one is allergic wheat does one stubbornly cram it down their gullets because D&C 89 says wheat is for man? Would that be wise?

Some of these ideas are difficult. But they are personal, and there is a reason, I believe, that the church only has 4 (5, really) "rules" about it. The rest is left up to the individual, between them and God, and rightly so I think.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

My wife and I are trying out the Keto diet right now. I'm not sure how to reconcile that with eating meat sparingly beyond the fact that we are doing it for health reasons, and the Word of Wisdom boils down to being healthy. (Spirit of the Law -- interesting tie in)

For example: If one is allergic to wheat does one stubbornly cram it down their gullet because D&C 89 says wheat is for man? Would that be wise?

Some of these ideas are difficult. But they are personal, and there is a reason, I believe, that the church only has 4 (5, really) "rules" about it. The rest is left up to the individual, between them and God, and rightly so I think.

 

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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10 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Errrm... I don't completely agree with this one.

I don't think God commanded us to stay away from alcohol for no other reason but to test our obedience.  Alcohol is bad for us.  How it's bad for us - we leave to faith.  God says so, therefore, it must be.

the WOW is our Law of Kosher  designed to teach us obedience to the simplest of laws. It does not matter if alcohol is good or bad. It matters that we promised we would not use it.  It is all about the oath.

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Just now, Kshuller said:

the WOW is our Law of Kosher  designed to teach us obedience to the simplest of laws. It does not matter if alcohol is good or bad. It matters that we promised we would not use it.  It is all about the oath.

I bristle a bit at the comparison of the word of wisdom with kosher or halal. There is a common idea of obedience, but the mindset is almost completely different. I consider kosher (and maybe halal) to be almost textbook Pharasaical overextensions of the law. If the Church membership commonly extended the word of wisdom to prohibit drinking soda pop or eating chocolate, then maybe I'd agree with the comparison.

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3 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

If you are diabetic and HUGE numbers of people world wide are, the dietary part of the WOW is impossible to follow unless you want to starve to death. No wheat rice sugar bread AKA simple carbohydrates. No fruit juice or other high sugar drinks. Bible says those who forbid to eat meat are not of God and the WOW says to eat it at times of extreme hunger. Does that mean starvation OR does it mean your blood sugar has dropped into dangerous levels? If you live on a high carbohydrate diet and are diabetic you will die a nasty death. Yes I am diabetic. I am the 8th generation and my son is the ninth in my family with diabetes and none of us ate ourselves into it. It is genetic in my family. I do not eat a lot of meat. I don't eat a lot of food. My dad died at age 58 from out of control diabetes. I am 70 and still alive. My diabetic son had a near fatal heart attack at age 42.  High carb diets kill.  So what do you tell a diabetic about the WOW? Alcohol is absolutely unsafe for a diabetic but so is food. If all diabetic drugs disappeared from the market today, what is a diabetic to do to survive? How do they design a food storage that is not wheat. grain or sugar based? I was diagnosed 18 years ago and I am no closer to finding an answer than when I started trying to find one.

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26 minutes ago, Kshuller said:

If you are diabetic and HUGE numbers of people world wide are, the dietary part of the WOW is impossible to follow unless you want to starve to death.

Welcome, Kshuller!

I think your statement above is a bit hyperbolic. The Word of Wisdom (note the name) does not dictate a high-carbohydrate diet.

Note also that diabetics surviving into old age is a thoroughly modern phenomenon. Their (your) survival today is a miracle of modern medical science. If and when the insulin flow stops, the diabetics die. Hope we get some good gene treatments before then.

Edited by Vort
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12 minutes ago, Vort said:

I bristle a bit at the comparison of the word of wisdom with kosher or halal. There is a common idea of obedience, but the mindset is almost completely different. I consider kosher (and maybe halal) to be almost textbook Pharasaical overextensions of the law. If the Church membership commonly extended the word of wisdom to prohibit drinking soda pop or eating chocolate, then maybe I'd agree with the comparison.

 Kosher has nothing to do with halal. The Law of Kosher was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God to teach the Israelites to obey Him.  halal is a muslim invention of Muhammad who worshiped false gods and became a false prophet. As the mother of children whose father is Jewish, I understand this differently than those whose knowledge of the Jew comes from a book. Food for thought. Were would the world be if the Jews had not recorded their communications with God so that we have a Bible and a Book of Mormon? They were chosen before they were born to do this job and Satan has tortured them non stop from day one. Without THEIR scriptures we would know nothing of God or Satan. Could you have endured what the Jew has been through? They love God. Their lives revolve around worshiping God. WE have been grafted into the House of Israel. The tribe of Judah is Jesus biological family.  He will personally save them. . Both the Word of Widsom and the Law of Kosher are God given commandments in different dispensations for the exact same purpose, to teach man to obey God without question.

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32 minutes ago, Kshuller said:

...halal is a muslim invention of Muhammad who worshiped false gods and became a false prophet.... 

Islam is a monotheistic religion. Muslims believe in one God (Allah). Muslims believe Muhammad was a prophet in a similar way that Mormons believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Islam and Christianity share key figures of their own religious histories, Adam, Abraham, Moses and even Jesus.

M.

Edited by Maureen
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58 minutes ago, Kshuller said:

 Kosher has nothing to do with halal.

Nor did I claim it did. You might perhaps reread what I wrote.

58 minutes ago, Kshuller said:

The Law of Kosher was given to Moses on Mount Sinai by God to teach the Israelites to obey Him.

Not so. Moses did not receive the modern laws of kosher, though that is what observant Jews believe. Those laws were an invention of the rabbis based on Moses' law. For example, Moses was not commanded by God not to eat cheeseburgers or otherwise mix dairy and meat. The original commandment was clearly intended to do away with ritual sacrifices to strange gods that involved killing a kid or calf and boiling it in its own mother's milk. The rabbis extended this commandment (in what I consider to be an absurd way) to claim that it really meant that you can't eat meat and milk products together. I see this as an unauthorized extension of God's word, an overinterpretation that seems of the nature of the Pharisees that Jesus condemned.

1 hour ago, Kshuller said:

halal is a muslim invention of Muhammad who worshiped false gods and became a false prophet.

Interestingly, early Church leaders seemed to accept Muhammad as a legitimate prophet, at least to some degree. If you have adopted some of the views and customs of Judaism, you may also have adopted some of their ancestral hatred. That is something you're better off not pursuing.

1 hour ago, Kshuller said:

As the mother of children whose father is Jewish, I understand this differently than those whose knowledge of the Jew comes from a book.

True enough, I'm sure. But the real question is: Do you understand Judaism better than others? In some aspects, doubtless you do, especially with respect to the beliefs and practices of modern Jews. In other aspects, especially historical interpretations, that is not at all obvious. For example, you accept kosher as being exactly what God said to Moses, though this is not the case.

1 hour ago, Kshuller said:

Food for thought. Were would the world be if the Jews had not recorded their communications with God so that we have a Bible and a Book of Mormon? They were chosen before they were born to do this job and Satan has tortured them non stop from day one. Without THEIR scriptures we would know nothing of God or Satan. Could you have endured what the Jew has been through? They love God. Their lives revolve around worshiping God. WE have been grafted into the House of Israel. The tribe of Judah is Jesus biological family.  He will personally save them.

Um...yeah, okay. Not sure what this has to do with what we're discussing.

1 hour ago, Kshuller said:

Both the Word of Widsom and the Law of Kosher are God given commandments in different dispensations for the exact same purpose, to teach man to obey God without question.

I heartily disagree with this. All commandment are given to teach man to obey God. I am convinced that no commandments are given solely to teach this; God is not cynical. (And again, kosher is an extension of the dietary portions of the law Moses received on Sinai, not the original law itself.)

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12 hours ago, Maureen said:

Islam is a monotheistic religion. Muslims believe in one God (Allah). Muslims believe Muhammad was a prophet in a similar way that Mormons believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. Islam and Christianity share key figures of their own religious histories, Adam, Abraham, Moses and even Jesus.

M.

Yup. Out of all the Christian religions, the one that should be the most sympathetic to Islam is Mormonism. After all, you don't need to be a religious scholar to see the similarities between the two faiths. Both place great emphasis on a book they consider Scripture. Both religions were founded by prophets. There are lots of other similarities too. 

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2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

Commandment, doctrine, policy, revelation, will of God, principle with a promise.

I see this as no different than the covenant of the Nazarite.  t was not required of everyone.  But it was required of some with a particular mission.  And that covenant could be taken by anyone if they sought special blessings. 

With the WoW, whether a policy was implemented or a revelation was given makes no difference.  You want to call it a commandment or not doesn't make any difference.  Beyond anything else, it is a covenant.  As a matter of a covenant, we are committed to upholding it.

Those who believe this is a health code are only 10% right.  Yes, it has health benefits.  But anyone would gain health benefits from following it.  So, why bother with a covenant at all?  Notice the Black and the Red.

Quote

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

The black part is what anyone would gain from following the dietary conditions of the WoW.  The Red is what is more important in my book.  And that doesn't come from just avoiding caffeine, alcohol, and tobacco.  It comes from obedience to a covenant.

I wonder if anyone can really come up with PRACTICAL reasons for the conditions of the Nazarite covenant. They really seem pretty arbitrary to me.  But scriptures tell us that blessings were had because of this covenant.

I don't care about studies like this.  They keep changing every year.  And NOTHING has ever provided enough incentive to abandon the WoW.  We can talk about abstinence vs moderation till we're blue in the face.  But it doesn't matter.  Is there any really compelling reason to abandon the WoW?  Then what does it matter?  I don't obey the WoW because I can win the Olympic medal.  I obey it because I've made a covenant to do so.

Edited by Guest
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12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. Out of all the Christian religions, the one that should be the most sympathetic to Islam is Mormonism. After all, you don't need to be a religious scholar to see the similarities between the two faiths. Both place great emphasis on a book they consider Scripture. Both religions were founded by prophets. There are lots of other similarities too. 

I agree with this sentiment.  But I also find it equally interesting to see the similarities and contrasting parallels to Judaism and the early Saints.

Capture.PNG.3e2577fa7a4be87b0284d1b904f8e455.PNG

My take away here is that any great religion has similar beginnings.  You can even say the same of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Zoroastorianism.  I'm not familiar enough with Hinduism to know about them.

But what do we look back to?  What do we look forward to?  And what persecution do we find from outside forces?

"When answering these questions, Mainstream Christianity actually shares some surprising similarities with Islam as well.

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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

I suggest that this one should be in both red and black.  Consider:

Quote

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Clearly not physical running or race.  Nor:

Quote

Mosiah 4:27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

See also: Proverbs 4 (esp. v12), Isaiah 40:28-31, D&C 10:4.

I believe D&C 89's "run" is at least as much figurative and referring to our spiritual or gospel efforts as it is about physically running.

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