Coincidence or Symbolism?


Fether
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16 minutes ago, Vort said:

The word "virtue" originates with the Latin word vir (pronounced "weer"), meaning "man" -- that is, man as opposed to woman. (The Latin word for man as opposed to animal is homo -- hence the designation Homo sapiens, "knowledgeable man", for a human being.)*  An admirable manly trait such as courage, strength, or endurance was called a virtus, which of course is where we derive our word "virtue". So the expression "virtuous woman" is actually sort of a contradiction in terms.

The word virgin also comes from the same root. The history of such etymological development is fairly muddy since so many etymologists have different theories.  But here's what have been able to piece together.

Anciently, women who refused to be ruled by men (and thus never married) were the ones considered virgins.  They were "virgin women".  That is, they considered themselves as strong and as capable as men.  So, that is what they were called.  Since they never married,  It was commonly assumed they had never lain with a man. People possibly thought "who would want to?" (Queen Elizabeth was The Virgin Queen, even though she was not a virgin by today's usage).

Therefore the meaning of "virgin" was initially to describe a woman who was independent of men.  Then it gradually changed to mean a woman who had never known the touch of a man.  Then it has formed into today's meaning of anyone (male or female) who has never had sex.

It was only natural that virtuous women and virgin women became synonymous.

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9 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The word virgin also comes from the same root. The history of such etymological development is fairly muddy since so many etymologists have different theories.  But here's what have been able to piece together.

Anciently, women who refused to be ruled by men (and thus never married) were the ones considered virgins.  They were "virgin women".  That is, they considered themselves as strong and as capable as men.  So, that is what they were called.  Since they never married,  It was commonly assumed they had never lain with a man. People possibly thought "who would want to?" (Queen Elizabeth was The Virgin Queen, even though she was not a virgin by today's usage).

Therefore the meaning of "virgin" was initially to describe a woman who was independent of men.  Then it gradually changed to mean a woman who had never known the touch of a man.  Then it has formed into today's meaning of anyone (male or female) who has never had sex.

It was only natural that virtuous women and virgin women became synonymous.

Interesting. Etymology Online claims a different etymology:

Quote

c. 1200, "unmarried or chaste woman noted for religious piety and having a position of reverence in the Church," from Anglo-French and Old French virgine "virgin; Virgin Mary," from Latin virginem (nominative virgo) "maiden, unwedded girl or woman," also an adjective, "fresh, unused," probably related to virga "young shoot," via a notion of "young" (compare Greek talis "a marriageable girl," cognate with Latin talea "rod, stick, bar").

I kind of like your etymology better. Wikipedia states the following:

Quote

The word virgin comes via Old French virgine from the root form of Latin virgo, genitive virgin-is, meaning literally "maiden" or "virgin"—a sexually intact young woman or "sexually inexperienced woman". As in Latin, the English word is also often used with wider reference, by relaxing the age, gender or sexual criteria. In this case, more-mature women can be virgins (The Virgin Queen), men can be virgins, and potential initiates into many fields can be colloquially termed virgins; for example, a skydiving "virgin". In the latter usage, virgin means uninitiated.

The Latin word likely arose by analogy with a suit of lexemes based on vireo, meaning "to be green, fresh or flourishing", mostly with botanic reference—in particular, virga meaning "strip of wood".

The part that I bolded above might indicate a crossover with your etymology, that a common root idea of "flourishing" or "strength" underlies both Latin words vir "man" and virgo "virgin".

Edited by Vort
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4 minutes ago, zil said:
6 minutes ago, Vort said:

The word virgin comes via Old French virgine from the root form of Latin virgo, genitive virgin-is, meaning literally "maiden" or "virgin"—a sexually intact young woman or "sexually inexperienced woman".

:rolleyes:

Funny that "maiden" has the meaning "virgin", which both have reference to a state of sexual inexperience. "Maiden" (or "maid") is just the Germanic-based native English word for "girl" (compare modern German mädchen), like "virgin" is the Latin-based word for "girl". And a "girl" is just a young female, not yet a "woman". Yet this idea of sexual experience or inexperience always creeps in. The state of sexual experience, especially in women, seems of prime importance from a sociolinguistic perspective.

I am reminded of one of my wife's pet peeves, that electrical and mechanical joints often consist of a "male" and a "female" part. The sexual metaphor bothers her. It does not bother me, but it's also not subtle at all. Not sure why she sees it as vulgar and I don't, but in any case, I find it fascinating how intertwined language and sexuality are, to the point that many European languages assign gender as a characteristic of nouns and pronouns. What's up with that? And this recognition should give new understanding (and perhaps concern) to the feminist linguistic agenda.

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53 minutes ago, Vort said:

Interesting. Etymology Online claims a different etymology:

I kind of like your etymology better. Wikipedia states the following:

The part that I bolded above might indicate a crossover with your etymology, that a common root idea of "flourishing" or "strength" underlies both Latin words vir "man" and virgo "virgin".

I believe you are correct in your research since it does overlap with much of mine.  But notice that the usage of the word as you're indicated starts in 1300.  The usage of words "similar" were found much earlier with different meaning.  But when we have so little written record to go on (how often does one use a word such as "virgin" in many currently existing ancient works from prior to that date?) there is a lot of guess work. 

I've cherry picked what seems to make sense to me based on how I've read many semantic shifts of other words throughout history.  Who alive knows if I'm right.

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40 minutes ago, zil said:

I was rolling my eyes at the "euphemism".  I find it absurd.  I also find it absurd that we need a gazillion euphemisms for sex.

As a result of all of the innuendos that exist in modern American English, my children can't seem speak a full sentence without saying one.  That said, my wife and I do get the occasional laugh from it.

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24 minutes ago, person0 said:

As a result of all of the innuendos that exist in modern American English, my children can't seem speak a full sentence without saying one.  That said, my wife and I do get the occasional laugh from it.

Honest to goodness conversation that I overheard.

Woman: I'm waiting for the mailman.

Man: (innocently joking) are there female men?  I didn't know.

Woman: (laughing) No.  I need him to be here right now.

Man: (shaking head not wanting to laugh).

Woman: Oh come on!  It's just that he has a package for me.

Man: (Turns the other way) I'm not saying a word.  I didn't say anything.

Edited by Guest
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3 hours ago, Vort said:

Like this?

number-angel-wings.jpg

 

3 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

quite right.  I am just not in tune enough to divine the meaning.  Should I have steak for lunch or tuna salad?  I know that it answers this question, but I just can't figure it out.

Part of the interpretation is clear, but of the interpretation is yet to be revealed. The number 1 clearly refers to the number of steaks or salads you should have. The wings refer to the fact that whatever you choose, you should have it to go, rather than having it sitting down at the restaurant. As to whether it should be salad or steak, its somewhat ambigous. The wings could represent fins, which of course points to tuna salad, but the straight up and down nature of the number 1 is suggestive of a garden stake, which of course suggests steak. In cases like this, when both possibilities are being suggested, you should probably have steak AND tuna salad. 

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

I am reminded of one of my wife's pet peeves, that electrical and mechanical joints often consist of a "male" and a "female" part. The sexual metaphor bothers her. It does not bother me, but it's also not subtle at all. Not sure why she sees it as vulgar and I don't, but in any case, I find it fascinating how intertwined language and sexuality are, to the point that many European languages assign gender as a characteristic of nouns and pronouns. What's up with that? And this recognition should give new understanding (and perhaps concern) to the feminist linguistic agenda.

I remember when I first learned about this as a young woman just out of high school. I had the same reaction as your wife. :)

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

Across the veil, I expect an invitation to your charcoal barbecue (or whatever passes for barbecue in the spirit world). Barring that, post-resurrection.

And of course, a barbecue, (as currently understood) in the spirit world would require the death of that which is to be barbecued.

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3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Depends on the steak or the tuna salad.

1) If it is a New York Strip steak cooked to just barely above medium rare with the right seasonings?  DANG!!

2) No tuna salad is complete without miracle whip, diced celery, and ground fennel seeds

Right or wrong I went with the tuna salad with Kewpie Mayonnaise and a few drops of Endorphin Rush hot sauce.  It turned out quite nice.

As for the steak....  That will be for dinner.   It will be a NY strip with salt, pepper, garlic power soaking in a Sous Vide Cooker for 4.5 hours at 134F.  It will then be seared in a cast iron pan with butter for a brief period of time.  I suspect I might even share half with my wife.     I think I need another angel number....   Keep all to myself and make me fatter, and happy...   or give half to the mrs. making her happy and possibly increasing my happiness latter on in the evening, but no guarantee. 

yup need a sign...

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Apparently you all need more practice interpreting angel numbers.  The wings clearly indicate that the meal should include some kind of fowl1, not steak or fish (except maybe flying fish, but who eats those?).  The halo indicates heat coming from above, not below.  The 1 would be one fowl.  And the fact that it's a whole number would imply the entire thing.  Seems pretty clear we're talking about broiled game hen here.

1There's a slight chance they indicate pork or ham, but not until pigs fly.

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1 minute ago, zil said:

Apparently you all need more practice interpreting angel numbers.  The wings clearly indicate that the meal should include some kind of fowl1, not steak or fish (except maybe flying fish, but who eats those?).  The halo indicates heat coming from above, not below.  The 1 would be one fowl.  And the fact that it's a whole number would imply the entire thing.  Seems pretty clear we're talking about broiled game hen here.

1There's a slight chance they indicate pork or ham, but not until pigs fly.

Actually, my wife left me three strips of pork belly and a little bit of teriyaki chicken and I did partake...

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

Across the veil, I expect an invitation to your charcoal barbecue (or whatever passes for barbecue in the spirit world). Barring that, post-resurrection.

There's actually good evidence that the celestial kingdom  will be nothing more than an endless barbecue. The same verse suggests that God likes His meat well done, not rare:

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
            15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly

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55 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Right or wrong I went with the tuna salad with Kewpie Mayonnaise and a few drops of Endorphin Rush hot sauce.  It turned out quite nice.

Well, sufficient hot sauce covers a multitude of sins.

55 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

As for the steak....  That will be for dinner.   It will be a NY strip with salt, pepper, garlic power soaking in a Sous Vide Cooker for 4.5 hours at 134F.  It will then be seared in a cast iron pan with butter for a brief period of time.  I suspect I might even share half with my wife.     I think I need another angel number....   Keep all to myself and make me fatter, and happy...   or give half to the mrs. making her happy and possibly increasing my happiness latter on in the evening, but no guarantee. 

You were doing so well.  Refer to @zil's post above.  The halo indicates heat from above is important.  However, she was only half right.  The proper procedure is broasting.  But at proper temperature.

55 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

yup need a sign...

5ada479d9bebb_download(3).jpg.0886cfee90840f5d5896d98733bbe760.jpg

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26 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

There's actually good evidence that the celestial kingdom  will be nothing more than an endless barbecue. The same verse suggests that God likes His meat well done, not rare:

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
            15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly

Certainly he is more sophisticated than wanting well done.   The only Godly way of steak preparation is medium rare.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, sufficient hot sauce covers a multitude of sins.

You were doing so well.  Refer to @zil's post above.  The halo indicates heat from above is important.  However, she was only half right.  The proper procedure is broasting.  But at proper temperature.

5ada479d9bebb_download(3).jpg.0886cfee90840f5d5896d98733bbe760.jpg

I could certainly throw the steaks in the broiler after the sous vide.  That may be better.  Take a tad longer buy may be worth it.  If only I had had time to smoke them for an hour first.

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20 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Dang, this went off topic fast.....  Guess we may be a little more food motivated.

It was a much more fulfilling topic of discussion.

HONEY?  Outback Steakhouse tonight?

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On 4/19/2018 at 4:03 PM, Fether said:

So someone pointed out the other day in institute that at the garden of Gethsemane, before Christ's Atonement, 8 apostles were to wait beyond the river and 3 were to walk with him to the garden. A total of 12 (Including Christ). Similarly, there were 8 witnesses to the Book of Mormon as well as a separate 3. A total of 12 (including Joseph Smith) that were present.

Nothing beyond this was said, but it did spark my interest. Was that just coincidence or is there some sort of symbolism here???

I think there is more to think about. The 8 witnesses were physical witnesses.  They handed the plates but no angels, no visions.  The 3 witnesses were spiritual witnesses with angelic visions.  I believe that the Lord often has a spiritual (Melchizedek) aspect and a temporal (Aaronic) aspect.  Also, three witnesses may also have been required in a similar way that Peter, James and John were special witnesses of Christ.  Maybe it required 3.

All speculation of course.

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