Marrying a Non Member

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Gotta say it -- baloney. God rarely tells people, "Marry this woman" or "Don't marry that one." That's our decision, and God respects our agency. A man has the right to marry whomever he wishes (as long as she's legally marriageable and agrees to marry him); and as Paul teaches, marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled. That doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Bruce R. McConkie gave a great talk shortly after being ordained to the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, called "Agency or Inspiration: Which?", in which he addressed this very question. Among many great insights -- it's a great talk, and you should read it, or better yet listen to it (hit the headphones icon at the top of the talk) -- McConkie said this:

I think McConkie knew what he was talking about.

Im not stating anything contrary. Pray unto God, seek that confirmation if it be right. If you wanna call counseling with God a work of "baloney" thats up to you.

[askandanswer]

I think a decision to marry a non-member doesn't give sufficient weight to the possibility of change. Sure, you might be in agreement on a lot of things now, but people do change their minds. Its quite possible that at some point you will be in a position where you have to choose between her and your religion. Are you prepared to make that decision? It will be easier to make it now rather than after 20 years of marriage.

[askandanswer]

Who is/should be number 1 in your life? God or the girl? Who can offer you the greatest and most long lasting happiness?

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I th Its quite possible that at some point you will be in a position where you have to choose between her and your religion.

The choice to break up a family over a change in religion beliefs disturbs me a great deal. 

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The choice to break up a family over a change in religion beliefs disturbs me a great deal. 

As it should, but sometimes it still needs to be done :/

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Fether said:

As it should, but sometimes it still needs to be done :/

Doubtful. With the exceptions of abuse, adultery or....abuse and adultery divorce should always be the last option. Over someone leaving a faith? Well, I'm just glad I don't think that way. Neither does LG, or I'd be single right now. 

One of the most memorable events of my life is when someone asked a lady in her 60's about her divorcing her husband over an affair he had. She said, "I have long ago forgave my husband. I'll never forgive myself for breaking up my family." Her regret and sadness has stayed with me forever. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by MormonGator

[Rob Osborn]

I have too many choice and personal experiences to comment spcifically about people I know but the summation is that the power of love, true love, has amazing power and when we start placing religious ideals or checklists in front of that as the litmus test rather than true love we may have already lost. I see too many failed marriages both within and outside of our faith because they tried to do the checkoff list rather than seeing if they really shared in a true essence of love and belonging to each other.

[Just_A_Guy]

49 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Why is the answer to "go pray unto the Lord" so offensive to you. 

Your question is premised on a lie.  I have expressed no offense at the notion of prayer; I have merely expressed concern at your deliberate and considered attempt to turn the OP away from the Body of Christ and the priesthood authorities whose duty it is to counsel members of the said body.

I have also pointed out that your encouraging the OP to play matrimonial Russian Roulette with his own exaltation,  likely stems from your own unorthodox belief that we are guaranteed a do-over if things go awry; and that perhaps you should disclose this divergence from the Mormon Church before you presume to give spiritual counsel to the members thereof.

Do you deny the power of God?

Of course not; but I rather question the ability of most twitterpated twentysomethings to recognize the power of God even if it slapped them upside the head with a Gutenberg Bible.  And that goes double when the kid is saying he doesn’t really want exaltation anyways.

[Rob Osborn]

5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Your question is premised on a lie.  I have expressed no offense at the notion of prayer; I have merely expressed concern at your deliberate and considered attempt to turn the OP away from the Body of Christ and the priesthood authorities whose duty it is to counsel members of the said body.

I have also pointed out that your encouraging the OP to play matrimonial Russian Roulette with his own exaltation,  likely stems from your own unorthodox belief that we are guaranteed a do-over if things go awry; and that perhaps you should disclose this divergence from the Mormon Church before you presume to give spiritual counsel to the members thereof.

 

 

Of course not; but I rather question the ability of most twitterpated twentysomethings to recognize the power of God even if it slapped them upside the head with a Gutenberg Bible.  And that goes double when the kid is saying he doesn’t really want exaltation anyways.

Well, thats your opinion. Thankfully, we dont have to rely on the opinions of others. We can pray and know. I personally wouldnt take your advice over Gods. Good day.

[Just_A_Guy]

2 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, thats your opinion. Thankfully, we dont have to rely on the opinions of others. We can pray and know. I personally wouldnt take your advice over Gods. Good day.

More premises based in lies.  I’m not asking anyone to take my advice over God’s; and I’m not asking the OP to “rely” exclusively on anyone’s opinion.  

I wish you a good day as well.  Hopefully your day will include some meditation on the questions I asked earlier about your latent suspicion of Church teachings that you have thus far failed to answer.  Perhaps it will also include some thought on your propensity to willfully misstate the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you and the implications of said propensity vis a vis the Ninth Commandment.

[anatess2]

36 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I have too many choice and personal experiences to comment spcifically about people I know but the summation is that the power of love, true love, has amazing power and when we start placing religious ideals or checklists in front of that as the litmus test rather than true love we may have already lost. I see too many failed marriages both within and outside of our faith because they tried to do the checkoff list rather than seeing if they really shared in a true essence of love and belonging to each other.

Interesting use of True Love.  It seems like all I do on this forum these days is try to figure out what people mean when they say they Love somebody.  Almost always it's about some nebulous feeling evoked by Romantic Lovesongs and Disney princesses.

Anyway, True Love does not lead away from Christ.  If it does, then it is not love.  I say this all the time - when homosexuals decry that they are being denied Love that shows they don't know what Love is.  Or when 2 unmarried Mormons say they can't stop themselves from phyiscal intimacy because they Love each other, they don't know what Love is.  True Love, of course, is 100% a religious ideal - Love is that deep, honest, and humble desire to bring someone with us closer to Christ - the ultimate joy.  This results in a lifetime and eternal covenant that we make to embark on this endeavor.

[Rob Osborn]

53 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

More premises based in lies.  I’m not asking anyone to take my advice over God’s; and I’m not asking the OP to “rely” exclusively on anyone’s opinion.  

I wish you a good day as well.  Hopefully your day will include some meditation on the questions I asked earlier about your latent suspicion of Church teachings that you have thus far failed to answer.  Perhaps it will also include some thought on your propensity to willfully misstate the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you and the implications of said propensity vis a vis the Ninth Commandment.

Whatever...

[Rob Osborn]

54 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Interesting use of True Love.  It seems like all I do on this forum these days is try to figure out what people mean when they say they Love somebody.  Almost always it's about some nebulous feeling evoked by Romantic Lovesongs and Disney princesses.

Anyway, True Love does not lead away from Christ.  If it does, then it is not love.  I say this all the time - when homosexuals decry that they are being denied Love that shows they don't know what Love is.  Or when 2 unmarried Mormons say they can't stop themselves from phyiscal intimacy because they Love each other, they don't know what Love is.  True Love, of course, is 100% a religious ideal - Love is that deep, honest, and humble desire to bring someone with us closer to Christ - the ultimate joy.  This results in a lifetime and eternal covenant that we make to embark on this endeavor.

I agree with what you say. Im just saying that true love and compatability come first before the typicsl checklist-

1. Returned missionary? Check

2. Active LDS? Check

3. Will definitely marry in temple? Check

4. If all of said above requirements are fulfilled you can marry him.

Anyway, thats the point I was making. We must seek a compatable partner. That person may or may not be a member.

[Vort]

30 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with what you say. Im just saying that true love and compatability come first before the typicsl checklist-

1. Returned missionary? Check

2. Active LDS? Check

3. Will definitely marry in temple? Check

4. If all of said above requirements are fulfilled you can marry him.

Anyway, thats the point I was making. We must seek a compatable partner. That person may or may not be a member.

This is not exactly false, but it's backward.

When we seek someone "compatible", that really means we want a spouse who shares our basic temperament and emotional responses, someone we enjoy being with, someone who likes us, someone whose personality seems to fit ours. And this is fine, though I do not believe it's strictly necessary for a successful and even loving marriage. I felt like I got that when I married, and I hope my children do, too.

But in any cross-section of the female population, there is some percentage with whom I would be able to find that chemistry. It seems only reasonable for me to limit my spousal pool to those who accept some of the same foundational beliefs that I do, and who value the same most basic and important things as I do. That's a much smaller slice of the population, to be sure. But if 5% of the general female population of my marriageable age were good fits "compatibility-wise", then I can be pretty sure that at least 5% of a smaller but still pretty large pool of Mormon women will fill that bill. And since I need only one to marry, it's not like I need to date a thousand women to find The Perfect Match.

So active LDS? Seeks for and is worthy of a temple sealing? Will raise children in the gospel with the standards we share? You bet those will be on my checklist, and on my children's checklists, if I have any say in the matter.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

But in any cross-section of the female population, there is some percentage with whom I would be able to find that chemistry.

With your personality pal-that percentage has got to be quite small. 

(playing!) 

[zil]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

With your personality pal-that percentage has got to be quite small. 

(playing!) 

Perfect persiflage!  Just in the wrong thread.

[Grunt]

As a convert married to a non-member, I would never suggest marrying someone outside the faith.  Even with a spouse who supports your decisions and attends church, it can be very sticky and painful.   Certainly, take it to Heavenly Father in prayer, but I would wait 10 times as long before tying the knot, have her attend Church a number of times so she knows what to expect, then take it to prayer again.  Being LDS isn't just attending Sacrament on Sunday.  It's an everyday commitment.

[Fether]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Doubtful. With the exceptions of abuse, adultery or....abuse and adultery divorce should always be the last option. Over someone leaving a faith? Well, I'm just glad I don't think that way. Neither does LG, or I'd be single right now. 

One of the most memorable events of my life is when someone asked a lady in her 60's about her divorcing her husband over an affair he had. She said, "I have long ago forgave my husband. I'll never forgive myself for breaking up my family." Her regret and sadness has stayed with me forever. 

I’m referring more to times when the family disowns their child cause he/she decides to join the church. In that case the church trumps the family.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Fether

[Rob Osborn]

27 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is not exactly false, but it's backward.

When we seek someone "compatible", that really means we want a spouse who shares our basic temperament and emotional responses, someone we enjoy being with, someone who likes us, someone whose personality seems to fit ours. And this is fine, though I do not believe it's strictly necessary for a successful and even loving marriage. I felt like I got that when I married, and I hope my children do, too.

But in any cross-section of the female population, there is some percentage with whom I would be able to find that chemistry. It seems only reasonable for me to limit my spousal pool to those who accept some of the same foundational beliefs that I do, and who value the same most basic and important things as I do. That's a much smaller slice of the population, to be sure. But if 5% of the general female population of my marriageable age were good fits "compatibility-wise", then I can be pretty sure that at least 5% of a smaller but still pretty large pool of Mormon women will fill that bill. And since I need only one to marry, it's not like I need to date a thousand women to find The Perfect Match.

So active LDS? Seeks for and is worthy of a temple sealing? Will raise children in the gospel with the standards we share? You bet those will be on my checklist, and on my children's checklists, if I have any say in the matter.

Thats fine, whatever works for you. The biggest thing I teach my children is the nuances of finding the right person who is kind, loving, and compatible. If they are LDS, then great! If not, thats alright, we are all sons and daughters of Heavenly Father and we all chose to come here in hopes to return. Love is powerful. A loving relationship can and will have the power to draw one to Christ. It may take beyond this life but Im assured of that fact.

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The choice to break up a family over a change in religion beliefs disturbs me a great deal. 

When my wife and i were engaged i told her she would always be number 2 in my life, after God. She effectively told me the same thing.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

When my wife and i were engaged i told her she would always be number 2 in my life, after God. She effectively told me the same thing.

Very glad you are both happy, that's for sure. 

It would be extremely hypocritical of me to say "You must remain in the same church throughout your marriage, or consider getting a divorce." I'm an adult convert to the church who was already married and from a different religion -so I have no right to say that. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by MormonGator

[askandanswer]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

The choice to break up a family over a change in religion beliefs disturbs me a great deal. 

My understanding of LDS theology is that eventually the worthy righteous endowed partner who accepts God will be "broken up" from their atheistic spouse who rejects God, basically because of religious beliefs or the lack thereof.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

My understanding of LDS theology is that eventually the worthy righteous endowed partner who accepts God will be "broken up" from their atheistic spouse who rejects God, basically because of religious beliefs or the lack thereof.

Like I mentioned in the previous thread,  whatever works for you and your marriage. If you (generic) choose to leave a marriage because of an issue with your spouses faith development, that's a choice you are going to have to make and live with. 

it is not a choice I could ever make. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by MormonGator

[mdfxdb]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I agree with what you say. Im just saying that true love and compatability come first before the typicsl checklist-

1. Returned missionary? Check

2. Active LDS? Check

3. Will definitely marry in temple? Check

4. If all of said above requirements are fulfilled you can marry him.

Anyway, thats the point I was making. We must seek a compatable partner. That person may or may not be a member.

I would agree with others who state that your way of thinking is backwards.  I would number 1-3 in that order as pre-requisites to even dating someone seriously.  You may or may not believe it, but you marry who you date.  If you do not have strict criteria for that person prior to serious dating, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment, and pain in the future.  Even when all criteria are met, marriages don't work out.  It would seem imprudent to go in a direction where your odds of success in eternity are even further diminished.  

Love is great and all, but I've never been able to pay the rent with love, never been able to make a car payment, go on vacation or support my loved ones monetarily, or spiritually with "love".  True love as described by one of the earlier posters transcends all of the Disney princess fairy tales.  Who cares how comparable you are when items 1-3 aren't checked?  Even Charlie Manson managed to get women to fall in love with him.  

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, mdfxdb said:

I would agree with others who state that your way of thinking is backwards.  I would number 1-3 in that order as pre-requisites to even dating someone seriously.  You may or may not believe it, but you marry who you date.  If you do not have strict criteria for that person prior to serious dating, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment, and pain in the future.  Even when all criteria are met, marriages don't work out.  It would seem imprudent to go in a direction where your odds of success in eternity are even further diminished.  

Love is great and all, but I've never been able to pay the rent with love, never been able to make a car payment, go on vacation or support my loved ones monetarily, or spiritually with "love".  True love as described by one of the earlier posters transcends all of the Disney princess fairy tales.  Who cares how comparable you are when items 1-3 aren't checked?  Even Charlie Manson managed to get women to fall in love with him.  

Whatever works for ya. Im glad I didnt have your criteria in finding my mate. I dated both a LDS girl and another who was investigating and also a nonmember. I was most combatible with the nonmember. I married her. Two years later she joined the church. It worked for me. I teach my children the same thing. All I am saying is to not discount what really makes two compatable- true love.