Marrying a Non Member

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The bolded is wrong and I am sure you know that it is.

A husband who is incapacitated by fear would lock his wife in the house to prevent her from getting hurt or finding greener grass and risk being separated from him.  That is not love.  A wife who is getting beat up will continue to suffer being beat up rather than risk being separated from her husband.  That is not love.

So, obviously, being together or conforming to the other's wishes is not what matters - not even for atheists.  Atheists may not believe a God exists but it doesn't prevent them from accessing the light of Christ within them even if they simply call it... I don't know, the higher good or whatever.

So, your definition of love is not love.  Not TRUE love anyway.  Wanna give it another shot?

Look, I'm not gonna debate this nitpicking crap. We know what love is.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Wrong. None of that means that couples are not in love with one another. 

They may love each other in one degree or another but I have found that if they can't truly share alike then they love the world more than their spose and it isn't gonna work.

[Guest MormonGator]

9 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

They may love each other in one degree or another but I have found that if they can't truly share alike then they love the world more than their spose and it isn't gonna work.

Our marriage has worked for 18 years and we keep separate bank accounts, have some separate interests and sometimes even travel solo. 

You seem to have a hard time comprehending that someone can be happily married and "share love" unless they do exactly what you think love is.

Edited September 18, 2018 by MormonGator

[prisonchaplain]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

A non-member is not necessarily the same as a non-believer in Christ, and while I think it would be unwise to marry either outside one's faith or outside the Christian belief, there are extenuating circumstances. Marriage is instituted of God so I don't see how that in itself is a sin. I do think it is a sin to lapse into non-belief, but to then marry a believer or non-believer is not a sin.

I agree, and yet struggle with this. Quite frankly, an atheist often has a better chance of conversion than a nominal Christian. The atheist is under no delusion. They know they are apart from, opposed to, or simply out of God's realm. Sadly, the spiritual person, the believer in a Higher Power, the "I believe in Jesus, but don't stress about it" person, the inactive member, the Christmas Easter Only (CEO) Christian, etc. etc. actually believes they are good enough--that God will take them in. If the church's teaching about 3 heavens is true, that may be right. However, from my binary perspective (heaven vs. hell), the half-hearted soul is the primary candidate to hear, on the day of judgment, "Depart from me, for I never knew you."

So...especially to young people,...my counsel would be run, do not walk, away from romantic relationship with those that are under-devoted. You cannot woo them, nurse them, even love them into the Kingdom. Let Heavenly Father do His work in their lives. Romantic love must never overwhelm the love and devotion we have for the one true and living God.

-- Okay, PC is done preaching.

Edited September 18, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Sunday21]

@prisonchaplain It is very true that it is easier to convert an atheist than another Christian especially the lukewarm kind but ...if it is an essential part of your faith to remain chaste, it is quite dangerous to date an atheist. . 

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Look, I'm not gonna debate this nitpicking crap. We know what love is.

Well, that's why I'm wondering if we really do.  Because, to me, you sure don't sound like you do.  Which is probably just that you instinctively do, you just didn't express it sufficiently.  True Love is bringing a person to Joy. Joy is in Christ.  That's the difference between a fearful guy locking his wife in the house and a fearful guy overcoming such fear to bring his wife to Christ or a wife accepting the abuse of her husband for "love" rather than helping her husband stop the abuse to bring him closer to Christ.  Being One is not sufficient for a husband and wife.  Being One IN CHRIST is LOVE.  Because how is it Love if you are united in your journey to misery?  Saying that "religious ideals" contradicts true love makes your understanding of true love suspect, especially when you say Love is more important than Celestial glory... that's an oxymoron.

Edited September 18, 2018 by anatess2

[prisonchaplain]

34 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

@prisonchaplain It is very true that it is easier to convert an atheist than another Christian especially the lukewarm kind but ...if it is an essential part of your faith to remain chaste, it is quite dangerous to date an atheist. . 

No doubt. My suggestion is that it is even more dangerous to date a half-hearted kinda-believer.

Edited September 19, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

I agree, and yet struggle with this. Quite frankly, an atheist often has a better chance of conversion than a nominal Christian. The atheist is under no delusion. They know they are apart from, opposed to, or simply out of God's realm. Sadly, the spiritual person, the believer in a Higher Power, the "I believe in Jesus, but don't stress about it" person, the inactive member, the Christmas Easter Only (CEO) Christian, etc. etc. actually believes they are good enough--that God will take them in. If the church's teaching about 3 heavens is true, that may be right. However, from my binary perspective (heaven vs. hell), the half-hearted soul is the primary candidate to hear, on the day of judgment, "Depart from me, for I never knew you."

So...especially to young people,...my counsel would be run, do not walk, away from romantic relationship with those that are under-devoted. You cannot woo them, nurse them, even love them into the Kingdom. Let Heavenly Father do His work in their lives. Romantic love must never overwhelm the love and devotion we have for the one true and living God.

-- Okay, PC is done preaching.

This is not necessarily about conversion, in my opinion.  This is about HONESTY.  This is the ingredient that makes inter-faith (including atheist) unions work.  As I said to @Rob Osborn, Love is that desire to bring one person with us to Joy.  For us, Christians, we understand joy to be idealized in Christ.  The closer we are to Christian ideals, the closer we are to joy.  Unity in that understanding makes it easier than a couple who has different beliefs on where joy is found.  A person who believes joy is found by swinging while the other believes joy is found in monogamy will, of course, have a harder time with it.  Therefore, in inter-faith marriages, the ingredient is HONESTY - when one is honestly, humbly, and diligently seeking the truth of all things, then a marriage can work between such person (even when atheist) and an LDS person (or an AoG person for that matter) who is also honestly, humbly, and diligently seeking the truth of all things.  My faith brings me confidence that when one is seeking truth, they'll eventually find Christ, where joy is.  And this is proven by my inter-faith marriage to my husband.  Marriages - inter-faith or not - require 2 people who are honestly devoted to a truthful journey to everlasting joy.

Edited September 19, 2018 by anatess2

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Our marriage has worked for 18 years and we keep separate bank accounts, have some separate interests and sometimes even travel solo. 

You seem to have a hard time comprehending that someone can be happily married and "share love" unless they do exactly what you think love is.

17 years together and THIS is how I find out my wife and I don't really love each other?  That stinks.

[lostinwater]

i really think in the realms of belief it's at least as important *how* a person thinks than it is *what* a person thinks.  

i really dislike the stereotype that people who don't participate in organized religion/belief in the post-Nicene-creed version of God are somehow eat, drink, and be merry degenerates who can't see beyond the end of their noses.  i'd really recommend that anyone who thinks that talk to one of these people.  Give them 20 minutes to explain their "why" and "what they believe now" and i think you'll be really surprised.  It is typically something bearing a lot of resemblance to the beatitudes of Jesus.

If anything, i think the people who really take a nosedive after leaving their faith (whatever that might be) are the people whose actions were lashed exclusively to that dogma.  Because when that turns out to be a facade, there is absolutely no logic, no reasoned belief that centers them in anything at all.  And a lot of times that reasoned belief that is capable and willing to evaluate and reject what does not pass the muster of one's conscience/executive thought processes - that is called being a lukewarm Christian when you are in a faith.  And for the record, i can't think of anyone here who strikes me as being this kind of shallow extremist - other than perhaps myself.

And FWIW, i know very few atheists.  There are far more agnostics than there are atheists.  i'd say 90% or more of the people called atheists are agnostic.  People who saw something they know evaporate right in front of them, and when that happens once - your ability to think that you "know" anything is shattered.

It's not an easy thing to pick up the shattered fragments of your absolute knowledge and hobble something together that can still hold water.

Edited September 19, 2018 by lostinwater

[Guest MormonGator]

17 minutes ago, Grunt said:

17 years together and THIS is how I find out my wife and I don't really love each other?  That stinks.

lol. Sorry @Grunt. 

The older that I get the more I see that happy marriages come in every shape and size.

It's the height of arrogance and naivety to claim that you know what love is for other people. 

[Grunt]

9 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i really think in the realms of belief it's at least as important *how* a person thinks than it is *what* a person thinks.  

i really dislike the stereotype that people who "leave" - whether that be TCOJCOLDS, organized religion, etc., - are somehow eat, drink, and be merry degenerates who can't see beyond the end of their noses.  i'd really recommend that anyone who thinks that talk to one of these people.  Give them 20 minutes to explain their "why" and "what they believe now" and i think you'll be really surprised.  It is typically something bearing a lot of resemblance to the beatitudes of Jesus.

If anything, i think the people who really take a nosedive after leaving their faith (whatever that might be) are the people whose actions were lashed exclusively to that dogma.  Because when that turns out to be a facade, there is absolutely no logic, no reasoned belief that centers them in anything at all.  And a lot of times that reasoned belief that is capable and willing to evaluate and reject what does not pass the muster of one's conscience/executive thought processes - that is called being a lukewarm Christian when you are in the faith.  And for the record, i can't think of anyone here who strikes me as being this kind of shallow extremist - other than perhaps myself.

And FWIW, i know very few atheists.  There are far more agnostics than there are atheists.  i'd say 90% or more of the people called atheists are agnostic.  People who saw something they know evaporate right in front of them, and when that happens once - your ability to think that you "know" anything is shattered.

It's not an easy thing to pick up the shattered fragments of your absolute knowledge and hobble something together that can still hold water.

It must stink.  However, that doesn't change my knowledge that Joseph Smith is a Prophet called by Heavenly Father to kick things off.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

i really dislike the stereotype that people who don't participate in organized religion/belief in the post-Nicene-creed version of God are somehow eat, drink, and be merry degenerates who can't see beyond the end of their noses. 

It's not fair, I totally agree. Remember that we put people in boxes so that we can better understand them. Hence why some members are so quick to dismiss those who leave as how you describe. Like President Uchtdorf famously said, "It's not that simple." 

[lostinwater]

59 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It must stink.  However, that doesn't change my knowledge that Joseph Smith is a Prophet called by Heavenly Father to kick things off.

Totally respect that!  

[lostinwater]

59 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's not fair, I totally agree. Remember that we put people in boxes so that we can better understand them. Hence why some members are so quick to dismiss those who leave as how you describe. Like President Uchtdorf famously said, "It's not that simple." 

Thanks @MormonGator

And i hope nobody sees that as a whiny "that's not fair" complaint.  Any belief is perfectly fair - i just don't think that what i perceive to be an overly reductive view of the nature of atheists/agnostics is particularly accurate.  i think people really miss out on some beautiful people and unique, however occasionally infuriating, insights when they hold it.  And, i'm not referring to myself.  i'm referring to some of the most maligned names here - like Mr Dehlin, and many of the people whose stories he's told.

And i'll also say that non-members who write members off as uneducated idiots (which sadly is a prevailing and at least as inaccurate view) are just as wrong and worse for not knowing many of the wonderful people here and in the thousands of wards all around the world!  

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Well, that's why I'm wondering if we really do.  Because, to me, you sure don't sound like you do.  Which is probably just that you instinctively do, you just didn't express it sufficiently.  True Love is bringing a person to Joy. Joy is in Christ.  That's the difference between a fearful guy locking his wife in the house and a fearful guy overcoming such fear to bring his wife to Christ or a wife accepting the abuse of her husband for "love" rather than helping her husband stop the abuse to bring him closer to Christ.  Being One is not sufficient for a husband and wife.  Being One IN CHRIST is LOVE.  Because how is it Love if you are united in your journey to misery?  Saying that "religious ideals" contradicts true love makes your understanding of true love suspect, especially when you say Love is more important than Celestial glory... that's an oxymoron.

We talking about different things.

[prisonchaplain]

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is not necessarily about conversion, in my opinion.  This is about HONESTY.  This is the ingredient that makes inter-faith (including atheist) unions work.  As I said to @Rob Osborn, Love is that desire to bring one person with us to Joy.  For us, Christians, we understand joy to be idealized in Christ.  The closer we are to Christian ideals, the closer we are to joy.  Unity in that understanding makes it easier than a couple who has different beliefs on where joy is found.  A person who believes joy is found by swinging while the other believes joy is found in monogamy will, of course, have a harder time with it.  Therefore, in inter-faith marriages, the ingredient is HONESTY - when one is honestly, humbly, and diligently seeking the truth of all things, then a marriage can work between such person (even when atheist) and an LDS person (or an AoG person for that matter) who is also honestly, humbly, and diligently seeking the truth of all things.  My faith brings me confidence that when one is seeking truth, they'll eventually find Christ, where joy is.  And this is proven by my inter-faith marriage to my husband.  Marriages - inter-faith or not - require 2 people who are honestly devoted to a truthful journey to everlasting joy.

I will again state that their are grace-filled interfaith marriages. However, my right vs. wrong understanding of scripture--particularly for the never-married, and most particularly to young people--is that this is neither a matter of honesty nor of romantic love, but rather one of obedience. God, through the Apostle Paul, said NO to unequal yoking. King Solomon tells us the meaning of life is to love God and obey His commandments. So, my best love and my best honesty is to avoid interfaith dating and seek out a marriage union with one of my own faith. My wife was Presbyterian, but when she married an AoG preacher she knew she would be joining an AoG church and that we would raise our children in the same. Fortunately Korean Presbyterians are more AoG in their outlook than they American Presbyterian, so it was an easy transition for her.

[Sunday21]

8 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @MormonGator

And i hope nobody sees that as a whiny "that's not fair" complaint.  Any belief is perfectly fair - i just don't think that what i perceive to be an overly reductive view of the nature of atheists/agnostics is particularly accurate.  i think people really miss out on some beautiful people and unique, however occasionally infuriating, insights when they hold it.  And, i'm not referring to myself.  i'm referring to some of the most maligned names here - like Mr Dehlin, and many of the people whose stories he's told.

And i'll also say that non-members who write members off as uneducated idiots (which sadly is a prevailing and at least as inaccurate view) are just as wrong and worse for not knowing many of the wonderful people here and in the thousands of wards all around the world!  

Actually in our faith, the more educated are more active and observant based on PEW research

[Sunday21]

As a former Single Stake rep, I have met a lot of faithful single women. The demographic reality is that if they do not marry outside the church, they will not marry. Not marrying in this life has serious consequences. In my area, ministering sistering is, if not dead, certainly on life support. Being old childless and single is bleak. 

I often ponder what to do about the older single women. The over 40s and the older 50s. Many of them are have low incomes and no cars. No car in my area often means inactive as the bus system here is expensive and inconvenient. Some denominations, but not ours, have a bus. 

In general, if a member marries out, they become less active but the alternative is stark.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Sunday21

[CV75]

14 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I agree, and yet struggle with this. Quite frankly, an atheist often has a better chance of conversion than a nominal Christian. The atheist is under no delusion. They know they are apart from, opposed to, or simply out of God's realm. Sadly, the spiritual person, the believer in a Higher Power, the "I believe in Jesus, but don't stress about it" person, the inactive member, the Christmas Easter Only (CEO) Christian, etc. etc. actually believes they are good enough--that God will take them in. If the church's teaching about 3 heavens is true, that may be right. However, from my binary perspective (heaven vs. hell), the half-hearted soul is the primary candidate to hear, on the day of judgment, "Depart from me, for I never knew you."

So...especially to young people,...my counsel would be run, do not walk, away from romantic relationship with those that are under-devoted. You cannot woo them, nurse them, even love them into the Kingdom. Let Heavenly Father do His work in their lives. Romantic love must never overwhelm the love and devotion we have for the one true and living God.

-- Okay, PC is done preaching.

That is pretty much the counsel we give in the Church. We naturally continue to reach out to those who have not followed it in the hope that they find the better way once they come to themselves (referencing the prodigal son). And some certainly do!

I think the notion of marrying someone you plan to or think you can change is also foolhardy and adds additional problems... even if it isn't over religion!

Related to that, I believe we typically marry to our own level of development, which can be quite revealing if we are humble enough to recognize it for what it is when so-called "differences" become evident.

Edited September 19, 2018 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Not marrying in this life has serious consequences

What are you getting at?

[Rob Osborn]

17 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Our marriage has worked for 18 years and we keep separate bank accounts, have some separate interests and sometimes even travel solo. 

You seem to have a hard time comprehending that someone can be happily married and "share love" unless they do exactly what you think love is.

Generally speaking, putting ones marriage first over worldly selfishness leads to a long and lasting marriage of true love. Separate bank accounts is generally a sign that the husband and wife aren't truly "one".

[Rob Osborn]

In my own family- a sister who has never married. Another sister who was married in the temple, had 11 children, now going through a messy divorce. A son who got married in the temple, now going through beginning stages of separation and divorce. A brother who also got married in the temple, still happily married. Myself, married outside the temple, later got sealed, still happily married. Another brother who fell away from the church and got married, still happily married.

From what I can gather just within my own family- temple marriage guarantees nothing as far as compatibility and staying together. So then, what is it really? This is why it bothers me when people demand to find a spouse who meets their checklist of religious ideals as the first critria. My son's friends are in that same boat- about half of his friends are now either divorced or separated who are or were LDS. We must change the mindset. 

[Chilean]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

people demand to find a spouse who meets their checklist of religious ideals as the first critria

When I was single, after my divorce, I went to the singles ward (I was about 26 I think)... and I hated it, because they (the brothers) had that checklist. I thought, and still think, is a very immature way to judging people you don't know and don't know anything about. Plus, what? you just returned from your mission and think you know everything about real life?  I think the most judgmental people at church are the brothers in the YSA with their stupid checklists. And that is why there are so many single sisters, because the brothers marry the 18 yrs old coming out of YW, dreaming of a return missionary prince and a temple marriage.

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Chilean

[anatess2]

10 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I will again state that their are grace-filled interfaith marriages. However, my right vs. wrong understanding of scripture--particularly for the never-married, and most particularly to young people--is that this is neither a matter of honesty nor of romantic love, but rather one of obedience. God, through the Apostle Paul, said NO to unequal yoking. King Solomon tells us the meaning of life is to love God and obey His commandments. So, my best love and my best honesty is to avoid interfaith dating and seek out a marriage union with one of my own faith. My wife was Presbyterian, but when she married an AoG preacher she knew she would be joining an AoG church and that we would raise our children in the same. Fortunately Korean Presbyterians are more AoG in their outlook than they American Presbyterian, so it was an easy transition for her.

You misunderstood my post.  Same-faith marriages is, of course, the smoother route.  My post was directed at inter-faith marriages.  Seeking a partner that will convert to one's faith, in my opinion, is not where it is - seeking a partner who is honestly and diligently seeking the truth of all things just as you are, is where it is.

That said, for an LDS - a baptist married to another baptist is still not the ideal route - they need to get the blessings of a marriage built on eternal principles.

Edited September 19, 2018 by anatess2