Our Souls - Designs or Daisies?


lostinwater
 Share

Recommended Posts

Interesting question.  i know what i think.  But would like to hear your thoughts as to which is most accurate.

1.  God created us with a specific end product in mind.  Our souls are just blueprints that we are contracted to construct for God and with God's help.  Each of our blueprints, if we exercise our agency to build it, will lead to ultimate happiness.

2.  God participates as a Parent in some sort of spiritual genetic lottery for each of His children - in which good results are always possible, but what exactly each child becomes is something that is a (hopefully pleasant) surprise - even to God.  As long as we are fully good (good without evil), He appreciates and Loves what we choose to be.  

3. Grrrrr!  @lostinwater has missed the obvious answer, AGAIN! :)  ..... (please enlighten us)

 

My only request in this thread is that we all be nice to one another, especially in disagreeing.   i don't want to have created a thread that creates or perpetuates feelings of ill will.  

Edited by lostinwater
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have no idea how a spirit is constructed, beyond God being the literal father of them, but I have a hard time believing God doesn't know the outcome before he begins (#2).  I also have a problem believing that God made us 100% who we are (i.e. that who we are is not mostly defined by our eternally existing portion - the thing we call an intelligence) (#1).  This makes me think that intelligence is not some natural resource from which a portion can be taken and merged into a fathered spirit (one theory); but that each intelligence is already an individual (whether sentient or not, still a distinct individual with their own distinct traits already included), and that God then fathers a spirit body for this intelligence to inhabit (another theory).

It is my theory that God knows, or comes to know, an intelligence perfectly before giving them a spirit body, and that everything God does in relation to said intelligence is explicitly and perfectly designed to bring about the best possible outcome for that intelligence, while still respecting their agency, will, and individuality.

But except for what is taught in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World", it's all speculation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is closer to #2.  But that's not quite accurate.

The "spiritual genetic lottery" as you put it is what makes up our intelligences that were co-eternal with God.  There was some quality of us that makes us "us" which was never created.

God then saw we had potential for something greater.  As spirit children of God, he raised us as parents and continues to so do.  When we meet our eternal destiny, it will be because God did all he could do without interfering with free agency.  As for our part, we will receive the best we could have hoped to attain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say neither, but #2 is the closest.

10 hours ago, lostinwater said:

God participates as a Parent in some sort of spiritual genetic lottery for each of His children - in which good results are always possible procreative event, but what exactly each child becomes is something that is a (hopefully pleasant) surprise - even to God result of each child's individual choices, made through the agency God has given themAs long as we are fully good (good without evil), He appreciates and Loves what we choose to be.   God loves His children, regardless of their actions, but seeks for them to choose to follow His plan so they may have true joy and become as He is.

Hows that sound to you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Interesting question.  i know what i think.  But would like to hear your thoughts as to which is most accurate.

1.  God created us with a specific end product in mind.  Our souls are just blueprints that we are contracted to construct for God and with God's help.  Each of our blueprints, if we exercise our agency to build it, will lead to ultimate happiness.

2.  God participates as a Parent in some sort of spiritual genetic lottery for each of His children - in which good results are always possible, but what exactly each child becomes is something that is a (hopefully pleasant) surprise - even to God.  As long as we are fully good (good without evil), He appreciates and Loves what we choose to be.  

3. Grrrrr!  @lostinwater has missed the obvious answer, AGAIN! :)  ..... (please enlighten us)

 

My only request in this thread is that we all be nice to one another, especially in disagreeing.   i don't want to have created a thread that creates or perpetuates feelings of ill will.  

My understanding:

We were spirits from the beginning and have always existed. Following God being created, tested, and exalted, he gathered us, from the great expanse if nothing, together and taught us as spirits.

As spirits, we learned to different degrees depending on our own person personality (much like how today some people put more effort into different things).

We were all given bodies and take with us the qualities, attributes and “spiritual muscle memory” developed in premortal life.

we die, continue that learning and growth. Then judged according to who we became over the whole course of things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, person0 said:

I would say neither, but #2 is the closest.

God loves His children, regardless of their actions, but seeks for them to choose to follow His plan so they may have true joy and become as He is.

Hows that sound to you?

Thank-you!  Good points.  

It's interesting.  i know i have disappointed my parents on several levels.  They wanted me to do/be X/Y/Z, and i did A/B/C.  i suppose this is true for everyone to an extent.  i'd like to think that i've, at least to a degree, converted some of their disappointment into appreciation.  It seems like this would translate to God also - except disappointment being replaced with surprise.  i have no interest in becoming a God - thanks, but no thanks.  Great if others want that, though.  And i feel like God is OK with this.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

It seems like this would translate to God also - except disappointment being replaced with surprise

In order for God to be surprised, God would have to not be all-knowing.  But God declares himself as all-knowing.  Further, were God not all-knowing, it would be foolish to trust something so important as your eternal life to him - seeing as how there could be something beyond his knowledge which could impact your eternal life and if there is something beyond his knowledge, who is to say you won't learn it before he does?

Fortunately, God is all-knowing and therefore can be trusted with your eternal life - but the outcome won't surprise him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

i have no interest in becoming a God - thanks, but no thanks.  Great if others want that, though.  And i feel like God is OK with this.

I haven't answered your OP, @lostinwater, but I think what you express above really encompasses this thread's origin. So I'll respond to this, with an eye to responding to the foundational assumptions of the original post.

I dislike the phrase "becoming a God". I dislike it a lot. I admit that in some context, it might technically be a correct thing. But I think it conveys a wholly false impression, one that antiMormons eagerly grasp onto and disseminate, and that even faithful Saints sometimes think. The very wording is all about power and control, imposing your desires onto others, being the one in charge whom everyone looks up to and worships. <vomit>

That attitude is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. It never was. It never will be, worlds without end.

Let me replace the phrase "becoming a God" with the equivalent but more descriptive phrase "receiving eternal life". And let's expand on what it actually means to receive eternal life. Receiving eternal life means receiving all the blessings God has to give to his children. It means receiving a fullness of joy. It means being happier, more content, more joyful, more excited, more optimistic, more belonging as a part of a family that loves and adores you, than you can ever experience in this life. It means that your eye has not seen, nor your ear heard, neither have entered into your heart, the things which God has prepared for you.

Take the happiest day you have ever experienced. The happiest hour of your life. The happiest moment you have ever felt. Multiply that by a million. Now make it last forever.

That's eternal life.

Now consider this statement:

"I have no interest in achieving a state of perfect happiness, power to bless my family and myself, and intense joy beyond expression, and have that at my disposal both now and throughout all eternity -- thanks, but no thanks."

Would you believe anyone would actually say that, and mean it? Would you say that and mean it? I don't believe you would.

I urge you to step away from the whole "You can be a GOD!!!!! And have your own PLANET!!!" paradigm, and not apply that idea to Church teachings. That is foolishness, and is most certainly not the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel is about becoming like our Savior so that we, as joint heirs with him, can receive all [the blessings] that the Father hath. This is not a question of riches or real estate holdings or admiring worship. This is a matter of becoming people who are capable of experiencing such overpowering joy that we don't have words even to begin to describe it.

Joy is our goal, and will be our end if we stay true. Or in Joseph Smith's original words (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 255):

Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.

Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

. . . It seems like this would translate to God also - except disappointment being replaced with surprise.  i have no interest in becoming a God - thanks, but no thanks.  Great if others want that, though.  And i feel like God is OK with this.  

As @zil suggested.  We believe God is all-knowing - in other words, He cannot be surprised.  We don't know the exact process by which He fathers our spirits, but we believe He already knows who we are from the beginning.

Also, the belief in becoming like God is not really about what we want, it's about what God wants.  If the ultimate glory God had for us were to simply be relaxing in heaven in a state of eternal paradise, that would be absolutely fine with me.  However, we believe that God has other plans for us.  The idea of becoming like God is less about being some type of all powerful being and more about being God's servants.  It involves being sanctified and glorified with and through Jesus Christ.  While we would inherit His glory, we would also inherit His work.

Consider Jafar from Aladdin.  Jafar is like Satan, he wanted all the power, but none of the responsibility.  In the Aladdin story, Jafar did get the power, but he also was forced into the responsibility, which he did not want.  Now, we won't be genies granting wishes, and God gives us agency so that we will not be forced into anything.  When when we accept the grace of God through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and then also seek to fulfill God's will so as to become like him, we accept that we are choosing to receive the ultimate blessing which comes with the ultimate responsibility.

Forgive me for the tangent, but many people who dislike the idea of becoming like our Heavenly Father, are thinking that we are somehow lifting ourselves up to become all powerful beings who can do whatever we want.  Instead, what we are doing is seeking to humble and lower ourselves to becoming vessels capable of perfectly receiving and reciprocating God's will, glory and power.  This involves becoming perfect in every way.  Being capable of doing that would require us to be capable of withstanding His power and glory, hence, we would have to become gods.  Becoming a god means becoming a servant of God in the most complete sense.

BTW:  For reference, here is that clip of what happened to Jafar:

EDIT:  Looks like @Vort beat me to it!  However, multiple explanations of the same concept can often be helpful in understanding it more completely.

Edited by person0
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Fether said:

So is God’s perfect knowledge of us from his spending eternity with us? Or is his perfect kniwledge natural of godhood?

I don't think someone hands you a "godhood" certificate and that suddenly fills any gaps in your knowledge.  Knowledge is learned.  Having learned all, one becomes (in that way, at least) god-like.  (And I expect those who have this knowledge, don't teach it to just any old body.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Vort said:

I haven't answered your OP, @lostinwater, but I think what you express above really encompasses this thread's origin. So I'll respond to this, with an eye to responding to the foundational assumptions of the original post.

I dislike the phrase "becoming a God". I dislike it a lot. I admit that in some context, it might technically be a correct thing. But I think it conveys a wholly false impression, one that antiMormons eagerly grasp onto and disseminate, and that even faithful Saints sometimes think. The very wording is all about power and control, imposing your desires onto others, being the one in charge whom everyone looks up to and worships. <vomit>

That attitude is not the gospel of Jesus Christ. It never was. It never will be, worlds without end.

Let me replace the phrase "becoming a God" with the equivalent but more descriptive phrase "receiving eternal life". And let's expand on what it actually means to receive eternal life. Receiving eternal life means receiving all the blessings God has to give to his children. It means receiving a fullness of joy. It means being happier, more content, more joyful, more excited, more optimistic, more belonging as a part of a family that loves and adores you, than you can ever experience in this life. It means that your eye has not seen, nor your ear heard, neither have entered into your heart, the things which God has prepared for you.

Take the happiest day you have ever experienced. The happiest hour of your life. The happiest moment you have ever felt. Multiply that by a million. Now make it last forever.

That's eternal life.

Now consider this statement:

"I have no interest in achieving a state of perfect happiness, power to bless my family and myself, and intense joy beyond expression, and have that at my disposal both now and throughout all eternity -- thanks, but no thanks."

Would you believe anyone would actually say that, and mean it? Would you say that and mean it? I don't believe you would.

I urge you to step away from the whole "You can be a GOD!!!!! And have your own PLANET!!!" paradigm, and not apply that idea to Church teachings. That is foolishness, and is most certainly not the gospel of Jesus Christ. The gospel is about becoming like our Savior so that we, as joint heirs with him, can receive all [the blessings] that the Father hath. This is not a question of riches or real estate holdings or admiring worship. This is a matter of becoming people who are capable of experiencing such overpowering joy that we don't have words even to begin to describe it.

Joy is our goal, and will be our end if we stay true. Or in Joseph Smith's original words (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 255):

Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.

Thanks @Vort and @person0.  Good points.  Interesting.  And i appreciate the reminder that God is no Jafar - there are a lot of people who see it that way these days.  

The whole not wanting to become a God wasn't the root origin of the thread - i'm a bit surprised it's veered so strongly in this direction from that one comment.  It's fine, just odd to me.

In an attempt to merge the two, i'll ask a question.

Do you assume that the way in which ultimate happiness and intense joy and meaning are experienced, expressed, etc., - is the same for everyone?  As an example, what about a person whose intense joy does not involve children?  Let's say for them, it is their spouse and dog and gardening?  Possible, or a symptom of someone who is not following God's plan for them?

And for the record, i know nobody could possibly be satisfied with their spouse and some dogs.  The only animal such joy and happiness is possible with is the horse - Dutch Warmblood, specifically (or maybe a docile Arab too) :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

The whole not wanting to become a God wasn't the root origin of the thread - i'm a bit surprised it's veered so strongly in this direction from that one comment.  It's fine, just odd to me.

In an attempt to merge the two, i'll ask a question.

Do you assume that the way in which ultimate happiness and intense joy and meaning are experienced, expressed, etc., - is the same for everyone?  As an example, what about a person whose intense joy does not involve children?  Let's say for them, it is their spouse and dog and gardening?  Possible, or a symptom of someone who is not following God's plan for them?

I didn't really explain myself in my post, as far as trying to address your OP.

In asking about the nature of our original creation -- something that has not been revealed and that none of us can answer past our own philosophical conjectures -- I understood that you were really asking about how we're "put together". In effect, what is it that makes us human, not in the physical, biological sense, but in the spiritual sense of our actual being? I understood this question to be the real genesis of your remark that you have no desire to "become a God". So my response was an attempt to say that I think there is a much better approach to the issue than to consider "becoming a God", as if that were even something that makes sense to us. The very best way to get an idea about "becoming a God" is to think about being a father, a son, a brother, a husband, and so forth. That is the only context in which such a thing reflects any dim image of the truth.

As I said, I really dislike the phrase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Vort said:

I didn't really explain myself in my post, as far as trying to address your OP.

In asking about the nature of our original creation -- something that has not been revealed and that none of us can answer past our own philosophical conjectures -- I understood that you were really asking about how we're "put together". In effect, what is it that makes us human, not in the physical, biological sense, but in the spiritual sense of our actual being? I understood this question to be the real genesis of your remark that you have no desire to "become a God". So my response was an attempt to say that I think there is a much better approach to the issue than to consider "becoming a God", as if that were even something that makes sense to us. The very best way to get an idea about "becoming a God" is to think about being a father, a son, a brother, a husband, and so forth. That is the only context in which such a thing reflects any dim image of the truth.

As I said, I really dislike the phrase.

Thank-you Sir.  

Well, that makes two of us that dislike that phrase.  

i suppose being a God is part of it - but i was more trying to find out just how closely everyone thinks the concepts of creation and predestination are knit together - specifically as it relates to each one of us.  Honestly, i should have stated that in my first post - i just wasn't quite smart enough or clear enough about my own question to have the words to do so then....

Maybe it's one of the questions a person can ask that God has no answer for, but only because the assumptions it rests on are faulty - CS Lewis gave the example of "How many seconds are there in a mile?"

Seems important from where i sit, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, zil said:

Mormons don't think they're knit in any way shape or form because Mormons don't believe in predestination.

Thank-you for this correction.  i should have been more careful with that wording.

Perhaps fore-ordination is a better way to describe what i meant.  Though even that doesn't feel like it quite fits.  Like is one's "ideal" destiny mapped out by God in the process of creation?  Or how much was the destination considered when creating the source?  Following of course would be optional regardless (hence the need for your correction).  Sorry, i am probably still saying it wrong.  i hope you take my point though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Perhaps fore-ordination is a better way to describe what i meant.

Quote

Alma 13:3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

Note the bit in bold.  What happens to us is enabled by God, but chosen by us.  Anyone with exceeding faith and good works receives the same rewards ultimately, for God is no respecter of persons.

There is nothing set in stone dictating anyone's future; our choices create our futures.  Some limit their view to mortality and think they didn't choose that guy to crash into their car and force them to go through physical and financial pain and hassles, but that's the short-sighted view.  You choose whether to respond to that event with anger, resentment, frustration, sorrow; or whether to respond with humility, gratitude, forgiveness, and joy.  It's that choice which creates your future, not how you go about getting your car repair / replaced.

Edited by zil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, zil said:

I don't think someone hands you a "godhood" certificate and that suddenly fills any gaps in your knowledge.  Knowledge is learned.  Having learned all, one becomes (in that way, at least) god-like.  (And I expect those who have this knowledge, don't teach it to just any old body.)

This almost sounds as if you're casting doubt on the value of my certificate! :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

Thank-you for this correction.  i should have been more careful with that wording.

Perhaps fore-ordination is a better way to describe what i meant.  Though even that doesn't feel like it quite fits.  Like is one's "ideal" destiny mapped out by God in the process of creation?  Or how much was the destination considered when creating the source?  Following of course would be optional regardless (hence the need for your correction).  Sorry, i am probably still saying it wrong.  i hope you take my point though.

My speculation, which I think is similar to what others have expressed, is that God's key role in our creative process was combining a spirit, that He somehow formed, with a pre-existing intelligence, with its own personality, which He did not form, and thereby brought into existence a soul. He then created an environment conducive to growth whereby that soul could grow and further develop by making choices, to the point where no further learning was possible, and an Earth needed to be created as a venue for further learning. I don't think any destiny was mapped out in the creation process - we make our own destiny in an environment/context set up by God, who, I suspect, was also bound by certain rules in the establishment of that environment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

how much was the destination considered when creating the source?

Probably none.  Why?  Because in the end, we each will progress as far as will be possible based on our own choices, and we will know that our state of existence is just and is of our own doing.  God is simply giving each of us the opportunity.  Then, there is no question about our ultimate destination.

5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Do you assume that the way in which ultimate happiness and intense joy and meaning are experienced, expressed, etc., - is the same for everyone?  As an example, what about a person whose intense joy does not involve children?  Let's say for them, it is their spouse and dog and gardening?  Possible, or a symptom of someone who is not following God's plan for them?

There are many people who have joy, but who are not happy.  These examples are more indicative of happiness than of joy.  In my mind, God is aware of exactly what will lead us to true joy, and it is the same for everyone, however, what makes us happy is not the same for everyone.  Seeking after happiness can lead to pride and selfishness, although not always.  Seeking joy will always lead to humility and selflessness.  Joy requires seeking to fulfill the will of God, which involves keeping His commandments.  If one of those commandments is to multiply, and to rear children in righteousness, then regardless of happiness in mortality, every single person who is capable of doing so and complies, will at the least have the eternal joy that coincides with this commandment.

Although I do believe God wants for us to have happiness in mortality, eternal joy has nothing to do with mortal happiness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share