Alfie is dead

[anatess2]

'Nuff said.

Edited May 2, 2018 by anatess2

[askandanswer]

I'll get right on to that, just give me 24 hours to pull my army together.

[NightSG]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Times like these I have this wish that the Americans would beat up the British in another Revolutionary war do-over just to make me feel better.

You mean an actual revolution instead of the First American War of Secession?

Edited April 28, 2018 by NightSG

[An Investigator]

Steady on

 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, An Investigator said:

Steady on

 

@An Investigator-you live in England. Is this a controversial issue over there? The conservative American media is all over it. 

[Fether]

Does anyone know WHY this happened?

[Fether]

From CNN:

”Wilkinson added that hospitals and courts need to follow an ethical framework, and in this case, they have decided treatment should no longer be provided, despite the parents' wishes. 

"Sometimes, the sad fact is that parents do not know what is best for their child," Wilkinson said. "They are led by their grief and their sadness, their understandable desire to hold on to their child, to request treatment that will not and cannot help."”

I find this highly disturbing

[Just_A_Guy]

47 minutes ago, Fether said:

From CNN:

”Wilkinson added that hospitals and courts need to follow an ethical framework, and in this case, they have decided treatment should no longer be provided, despite the parents' wishes. 

"Sometimes, the sad fact is that parents do not know what is best for their child," Wilkinson said. "They are led by their grief and their sadness, their understandable desire to hold on to their child, to request treatment that will not and cannot help."”

I find this highly disturbing

The trouble is that there were other competent, accredited, non-NHS-affiliated doctors and hospitals saying that there exist treatments that *can* help (in both this case and Charlie Gard’s); and then as a matter of institutional pride the NHS doubles down on its original diagnosis and develops a positive blood-lust for the sake of making sure that no one else has a chance to prove their own doctors wrong.

Pretty sick stuff, but this is what bureaucracies do.  They are Never Wrong.  And this is why you don’t want any bureaucracy or hospital to be the only game in town when it comes to treating illness; or to have the backing of the state’s police power to enforce its own prognoses.  

Single-payer health care fans, take note.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

]Single-payer health care fans, take note.

Italy has a form of single payer too, and they offered to take him. While I'm totally against single payer healthcare I'm not sure you can blame it for this one.  

Edited April 28, 2018 by MormonGator

[Just_A_Guy]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Italy has single payer too, and they offered to take him. While I'm totally against single payer healthcare I'm not sure you can blame it for this one.  

Not to go all Godwin on you, but that’s like saying you can’t blame totalitarianism for the Holocaust.  

This happened because someone who had the will to kill a child also had the legal authority to kill a child; and the citizen-parents had neither the authority nor the power to stop it.

[NightSG]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

Does anyone know WHY this happened?

I think Ecclesiastes 8:11 provides the general idea.

[Guest MormonGator]

28 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Not to go all Godwin on you, but that’s like saying you can’t blame totalitarianism for the Holocaust.  

This happened because someone who had the will to kill a child also had the legal authority to kill a child; and the citizen-parents had neither the authority nor the power to stop it.

Believe me my friend, I'm just as outraged about this as everyone else is. But I don't blame universal health care for it. Again, I'm totally against universal health care. 

And I prefer to be compared to Pol Pot, not Hitler please. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by MormonGator

[An Investigator]

16 hours ago, MormonGator said:

@An Investigator-you live in England. Is this a controversial issue over there? The conservative American media is all over it. 

The UK is divided on the issue.  Alot of people view "Alfies' army " as religious extremists.   There has been a lot of coverage of these people threatening staff and other hospital patients.   I absolutely love the NHS, I am very grateful that we have the healthcare that we have.   The issue for me was the rights of the parents, the offer from Rome wasn't for treatment it was for palliative care, they weren't suggesting they could cure him.   The NHS wants to get the best value for money it can and this can lead to incorrect decisions being made sadly,  when I was pregnant with my son, I had preeclampsia and nearly died.  The hospital still made me have a labour because there was over 20 percent chance, rather than give me a Cesarean which would cost more.   I ended up after two days, having an emergency Cesarean, I think that outlook could do with improvement.    I really feel for the parents but on the other hand, I am very grateful that  Jehovah's witnesses are forced to give their children blood transfusions for example  

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

The UK is divided on the issue.  Alot of people view "Alfies' army " as religious extremists.   There has been a lot of coverage of these people threatening staff and other hospital patients.   I absolutely love the NHS, I am very grateful that we have the healthcare that we have.   The issue for me was the rights of the parents, the offer from Rome wasn't for treatment it was for palliative care, they weren't suggesting they could cure him.   The NHS wants to get the best value for money it can and this can lead to incorrect decisions being made sadly,  when I was pregnant with my son, I had preeclampsia and nearly died.  The hospital still made me have a labour because there was over 20 percent chance, rather than give me a Cesarean which would cost more.   I ended up after two days, having an emergency Cesarean, I think that outlook could do with improvement.    I really feel for the parents but on the other hand, I am very grateful that  Jehovah's witnesses are forced to give their children blood transfusions for example  

Thanks @An Investigator, I think your opinion is much more valid than ours across the pond because you live closer to the controversy. 

[Just_A_Guy]

32 minutes ago, An Investigator said:

The UK is divided on the issue.  Alot of people view "Alfies' army " as religious extremists.   There has been a lot of coverage of these people threatening staff and other hospital patients.   I absolutely love the NHS, I am very grateful that we have the healthcare that we have.   The issue for me was the rights of the parents, the offer from Rome wasn't for treatment it was for palliative care, they weren't suggesting they could cure him.   

Vatican News suggests that there was hope that by keeping Alfie alive longer, it would be possible to actually give him a diagnosis.  It was a moon-shot, sure; but we’ve turned an odd corner where government uses its police power to decree that death is preferable to life-sustaining moon shots.

The NHS wants to get the best value for money it can and this can lead to incorrect decisions being made sadly,  when I was pregnant with my son, I had preeclampsia and nearly died.  The hospital still made me have a labour because there was over 20 percent chance, rather than give me a Cesarean which would cost more.   I ended up after two days, having an emergency Cesarean, I think that outlook could do with improvement.  

How horrible.  Glad you’re OK.

I really feel for the parents but on the other hand, I am very grateful that  Jehovah's witnesses are forced to give their children blood transfusions for example  

Agreed; though I would note that there are light years of difference between saving a child, and killing him.

 

[Lee]

On 28/04/2018 at 10:00 AM, anatess2 said:

Times like these I have this wish that the Americans would beat up the British in another Revolutionary war do-over just to make me feel better.

My mother was British so I like to stay up to date with what is going on in Great Britain. I have to say I don't see the fuss about this case at all, seems to be one every month in Britain. As my mother always joked the only was to get America to join a war is to tell them it is almost over.  

[Just_A_Guy]

A tantalizing hypothetical: What if Alfie were named Ahmed and his father had wanted to take him to Mecca?

[JayKi]

As a trainee surgeon in England I feel I can give an opinion. Doctor and Surgeon in England work very hard to save many life every day, the NHS save many lives every day that couldn't be save otherwise. One child that has limited chance of being save should not be placed above the many lives that are save a year. The same people being criticised for this decision save lives every day, make decisions on where most life can be saved and allocate money for this. It is not right to judge a nation or profession on one case. It is a privilege to have profession that allows life to be save but not every life is saveable and trying lots of money and resource is going to impact more saveable life from being save. Is sad these thing happen especially to child but is not the fault of doctor or the NHS or government that his life ended. 

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, JayKi said:

As a trainee surgeon in England I feel I can give an opinion. Doctor and Surgeon in England work very hard to save many life every day, the NHS save many lives every day that couldn't be save otherwise. One child that has limited chance of being save should not be placed above the many lives that are save a year. The same people being criticised for this decision save lives every day, make decisions on where most life can be saved and allocate money for this. It is not right to judge a nation or profession on one case. It is a privilege to have profession that allows life to be save but not every life is saveable and trying lots of money and resource is going to impact more saveable life from being save. Is sad these thing happen especially to child but is not the fault of doctor or the NHS or government that his life ended. 

Yeah.  Some lives just aren't worth the money.

[NeuroTypical]

11 minutes ago, JayKi said:

It is a privilege to have profession that allows life to be save but not every life is saveable and trying lots of money and resource is going to impact more saveable life from being save.

From what I'm reading, Italy gave Alfie Italian citizenship in an effort to get him out of the country who wanted him dead.  They had someone else willing to pay the bills, willing to spend the resources.

This wasn't about money.

Quote

Is sad these thing happen especially to child but is not the fault of doctor or the NHS or government that his life ended. 

Of course it's the fault of the government - the high court's decisions were enforced.  How on earth is this not the government's fault?

[Vort]

32 minutes ago, JayKi said:

As a trainee surgeon in England I feel I can give an opinion. Doctor and Surgeon in England work very hard to save many life every day, the NHS save many lives every day that couldn't be save otherwise. One child that has limited chance of being save should not be placed above the many lives that are save a year. The same people being criticised for this decision save lives every day, make decisions on where most life can be saved and allocate money for this. It is not right to judge a nation or profession on one case. It is a privilege to have profession that allows life to be save but not every life is saveable and trying lots of money and resource is going to impact more saveable life from being save. Is sad these thing happen especially to child but is not the fault of doctor or the NHS or government that his life ended. 

Irrelevant. The government prevented the child from receiving treatment elsewhere. it would not have cost them a dime. This was English hubris at its absolute worst.

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, JayKi said:

As a trainee surgeon in England I feel I can give an opinion. Doctor and Surgeon in England work very hard to save many life every day, the NHS save many lives every day that couldn't be save otherwise. One child that has limited chance of being save should not be placed above the many lives that are save a year. The same people being criticised for this decision save lives every day, make decisions on where most life can be saved and allocate money for this. It is not right to judge a nation or profession on one case. It is a privilege to have profession that allows life to be save but not every life is saveable and trying lots of money and resource is going to impact more saveable life from being save. Is sad these thing happen especially to child but is not the fault of doctor or the NHS or government that his life ended. 

If some corporation (Like an insurance company) made the call that that it was not worth trying to save him.  People would be protesting the Capitalistic Greed that did not value a life... But when the Government makes the call no one wants to call them out on their greedy ways....

Having said that, I understand that someone has to  draw the line to try to maximize the amount of people they can help.  So that they made the call that it was not "worth" more money on the kid care is not what bothers me.  (although it truly sucked)  

What bothered me was that they allowed no other alternatives once they made their call.  Had it been a "Greedy Business/Insurance Company"  they would not have cared that someone else was willing to take over as long as they did not have to pay.  But this went beyond that they said not only are we not going to pay for it we are not going to let anyone else pay either.  Their "Jusification" its is better for the child to slowly starve to death then to move him to somewhere else where they would continue to care for him.   This is the true danger of giving the government so much power.

[JayKi]

10 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If some corporation (Like an insurance company) made the call that that it was not worth trying to save him.  People would be protesting the Capitalistic Greed that did not value a life... But when the Government makes the call no one wants to call them out on their greedy ways....

Having said that, I understand that someone has to  draw the line to try to maximize the amount of people they can help.  So that they made the call that it was not "worth" more money on the kid care is not what bothers me.  (although it truly sucked)  

What bothered me was that they allowed no other alternatives once they made their call.  Had it been a "Greedy Business/Insurance Company"  they would not have cared that someone else was willing to take over as long as they did not have to pay.  But this went beyond that they said not only are we not going to pay for it we are not going to let anyone else pay either.  Their "Jusification" its is better for the child to slowly starve to death then to move him to somewhere else where they would continue to care for him.   This is the true danger of giving the government so much power.

The government can not give in to every appeal and offer alternative. There will be many appeal every day. Is important to trust the government act in best interest of all people not just for one child. Is a hard moral dilemma and I don't know legal process as I never train as Coroner. 

[Vort]

3 hours ago, JayKi said:

The government can not give in to every appeal and offer alternative. There will be many appeal every day. Is important to trust the government act in best interest of all people not just for one child. Is a hard moral dilemma and I don't know legal process as I never train as Coroner. 

Again, irrelevant. IT WOULD NOT HAVE COST THE ENGLISH CROWN A DIME to allow the child to go elsewhere for treatment. They allowed the child to die because they wanted to score political points. Their action was monstrous. Period. Your refusal to acknowledge this obvious fact is telling.

[Grunt]

9 hours ago, JayKi said:

The government can not give in to every appeal and offer alternative. There will be many appeal every day. Is important to trust the government act in best interest of all people not just for one child. Is a hard moral dilemma and I don't know legal process as I never train as Coroner. 

Give in?  It's none of the government's business.  I don't trust the government to act in my best interest at all.  I trust ME to.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Grunt