Church Abominations

[fatima]

It is my understanding that when Joseph Smith spoke to God,  God told him that all the churches were an abomination (or something like that)  Is there anything in Smith's writing that outlines what the offensive doctrines or practices were?  As a Catholic, I am more interested in what specific Catholic practices were condemned.

Or, perhaps God didn't go over specifics of any denomination, but rather just told Smith was to do from that point forward?

[Sunday21]

@fatima God considers the altering of his teachings to be an abomination NOT the people who attend other churchs. 

Here is a partial list of lost truths restored in the Book Of Mormon

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2006/10/plain-and-precious-truths-restored?lang=eng

There is a lot of Doctrine in the Book of Mormon. I would look over this table of contents and read the chapters of most interest to you.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-and-doctrine-of-the-book-of-mormon-teacher-manual?lang=eng

Edited April 29, 2018 by Sunday21

[Jane_Doe]

Hi @fatima, long time no see!  Welcome back!

The specific quote is:

" I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng  (emphasis mine)

 

Ir is not the churches that were abominations, nor the people therein, not denominations, but specifically the creeds.  For LDS, we're really big on the fact that Truth comes from God, via revelation.  For the whole church/world, that's revelation received through His prophets and priesthood, and can be scripture itself.   Ultimate Truth doesn't come any other way.  Speaking from the LDS perspective, the creeds were documents written by men, not received by prophetic revelation*.  So that's a very offensive problem from the get go-- it's men putting themselves in the driver seat where only God should be.

The problem when men put themselves in the driver's seat, is that they get things wrong.  Not intentionally, but we don't have God's infinite knowledge.  It starts gradual, and then gets more pronounced.  One way they went astray is by declaring the Father, Son, and Spirit to be one via a shared substance.  That italicized part is not in the Bible, but a result of men's thoughts.  Well meaning men, but still men.  That one idea alone stems many false ideas about who God is, and who we are.   

Other big points are hit pretty well in the article @Sunday21 linked. 

 

*I do acknowledge the Catholic belief that these men were inspired, albeit not with public revelation.  I find that to be a much more respectable approach than the sola scriptura beliefs.  

Edited April 29, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[estradling75]

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

Joseph Smith History 1: 19

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

What he called and abomination and why is right there

 

[fatima]

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Hi @fatima, long time no see!  Welcome back!

The specific quote is:

" I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng  (emphasis mine)

 

Ir is not the churches that were abominations, nor the people therein, but specifically the creeds.  For LDS, we're really big on the fact that Truth comes from God, via revelation.  For the whole church/world, that's revelation received through His prophets and priesthood, and can be scripture itself.   Ultimate Truth doesn't come any other way.  Speaking from the LDS perspective, the creeds were documents written by men, not received by prophetic revelation*.  So that's a very offensive problem from the get go-- it's men putting themselves in the driver seat where only God should be.

The problem when men put themselves in the driver's seat, is that they get things wrong.  Not intentionally, but we don't have God's infinite knowledge.  It starts gradual, and then gets more pronounced.  One way they went astray is by declaring the Father, Son, and Spirit to be one via a shared substance.  That italicized part is not in the Bible, but a result of men's thoughts.  Well meaning men, but still men.  That one idea alone stems many false ideas about who God is, and who we are.   

Other big points are hit pretty well in the article @Sunday21 linked.  I'll elaborate more in my next post.

 

*I do acknowledge the Catholic belief that these men were inspired, albeit not with public revelation.  I find that to be a much more respectable approach than the sola scriptura beliefs.  

Thanks for the reply.  I'm curious, for instance, if God through Smith said that veneration of Mary and the Saints is a false doctrine.  And the reason I ask is because it seems LDS share something similar with Catholics with respect to our ancestors in the faith (so to speak).  I've been at a Mormon ward and there are images of the prophets, relief society women (I'm guessing the foundress of RS?)  I read in another post that a Temple has murals of Adam and Eve.  

So, while I realize you do not pray to them or ask for their intercession with God as we do, you still look to them as examples of a faithful life, right?

[fatima]

5 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

Joseph Smith History 1: 19

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

What he called and abomination and why is right there

 

Yes, I've read that much.  I'm wondering if there are specifics written anywhere. But, thank you anyway.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, fatima said:

Thanks for the reply.  I'm curious, for instance, if God through Smith said that veneration of Mary and the Saints is a false doctrine. 

From the LDS perspective, praying to saints in general is a false practice.  Prayers should always been in the format of the example the Lord gave us: to the Father, in the name of the Son.  

1 minute ago, fatima said:

 And the reason I ask is because it seems LDS share something similar with Catholics with respect to our ancestors in the faith (so to speak).  I've been at a Mormon ward and there are images of the prophets, relief society women (I'm guessing the foundress of RS?)  I read in another post that a Temple has murals of Adam and Eve.  

So, while I realize you do not pray to them or ask for their intercession with God as we do, you still look to them as examples of a faithful life, right?

Remember them and look to them as examples, totally a good thing.  Rather-- more than being *just* a good thing, it's a commandment.  We are to always remember.  

(Fantastic question, by the way!)

[Sunday21]

@fatima

Praise for Mary https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/01/mary-his-mother?lang=eng

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, fatima said:

Yes, I've read that much.  I'm wondering if there are specifics written anywhere. But, thank you anyway.

Ok, it's just an important distinction to make-- people frequently misunderstand and think it's being said that people are abominations (HUGE difference there).

Examples of some specifics (I"m talking big picture)

-Loss of His priesthood

- Lack of prophetic revelation for the whole church/world.  

- Lack of emphasis on personal revelation.

-Bringing in the idea of a shared substance and all the following stuff

-Lack of knowledge of pre-mortal life.

-Distorted view of the reason behind the Fall & human struggles

-Lost of church organization.

-Corruption/lost of covenant ordinances

-Distortion of human agency and it's importance

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, fatima said:

It is my understanding that when Joseph Smith spoke to God,  God told him that all the churches were an abomination (or something like that)  Is there anything in Smith's writing that outlines what the offensive doctrines or practices were?  As a Catholic, I am more interested in what specific Catholic practices were condemned.

Or, perhaps God didn't go over specifics of any denomination, but rather just told Smith was to do from that point forward?

Disclaimer - i'm mostly inactive - or perhaps put in a more relevant way, emotionally divested.

i was always conflicted over how to handle questions like this when i was in the Mormon church.  i never thought someone else's faith was evil or an abomination.  But i couldn't really accept it either - not fully.  People had to join my religion before i would accept them fully, because anything else would be like a subconscious admission that what i believed wasn't true - or at least not the eternally important kind of true.  i hope i never hurt anyone, and did what God and Jesus would have wanted me to do - but i know i didn't always in terms of interacting with people from other faiths.

i was too pushy sometimes, and too quiet others.  i remember one time i made a comment that the Catholic Church's rituals were like a "sterile/disinfected" relationship with the divine.  It was a callous comment on my part that showed only my ignorance and personal biases - and i've always regretted it.  i can honestly say now that i have almost nothing but respect for the Catholic Church.  It tries - like it really tries - to do good.  It's had its moments of darkness, just like i have, but it is a force for good.  And someone or something that tries and fails and changes and tries again - that's where it is at, in my opinion.

i'm not claiming to speak for anyone other than myself, though. 

Anyways, that doesn't entirely answer your question.  But maybe it addresses what i imagine causes someone to ask a question like that.  

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, fatima said:

Yes, I've read that much.  I'm wondering if there are specifics written anywhere. But, thank you anyway.

From 1 Nephi 13 and 14, any philosophy promulgated by the great and abominable church (the devil) and retained within the guise of a formal Christian system of belief would apply. The baptism of little children as detailed in Mormon 10:5-26 is the only specific creed specifically cited as an abomination, and whatever Jesus might have been referring to in Luke 16:15 might have a Christian counterpart to be found within the creeds of Joseph Smith’s day.

Mormon 10:16 hints that there are other abominations (“Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner…). Evidently there are other points within some creeds that pervert the ways of the Lord, but we tend to focus on the points of the Restored Gospel instead, as that is where the Lord offered revelation and clarity, not critiquing the particulars of any creed.

[Just_A_Guy]

Perhaps of interest:  https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-13-number-1-2012/catholic-mormon-relations#_ednref18.  At one point Joseph Smith made an off-the-cuff observation to the effect that the Catholic Church was worth more than the rest of Christianity put together.

Joseph Smith’s First Vision narrative is steeped in King James Old Testament language (the Lord specifically cites part of Isaiah 29 in it); and the word “abomination” as used in the OT didn’t quite have the same cachet (baggage?) that it does in modern colloquial usage.  See also John Quincy Adams’ so-called “Tariff of Abomination”, passed eight years after Smith’s experience—anything you disagreed with, however mundane, ran a serious risk of being dubbed an “abomination”. 

I mean, don’t get me wrong—we still disagree with you Catholics over quite a lot.  But when early Mormon documents use the word “abominable”—it’s not like we’re lumping Catholics in with abortionists or child abusers or Episcopalians.  (Doesn’t that make you feel better?     )

Edited April 30, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest]

2 hours ago, fatima said:

So, while I realize you do not pray to them or ask for their intercession with God as we do, you still look to them as examples of a faithful life, right?

That kind of answers your own question, doesn't it?

We can go back and forth with words and semantics and details all we want.  But the simple sentiment is this:

If Joseph Smith walked into the room, we'd all stand up and hope to shake his hand.  If Jesus walked into the room, we'd all fall down on our knees and pray.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Guest

[fatima]

10 hours ago, estradling75 said:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

Joseph Smith History 1: 19

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

What he called and abomination and why is right there

 

I know this part, thank you; I have read this before.  What I'm looking for is if, following this (or any other) vision, that Smith outlines specifics that were detailed to him.  Not to say that God should have/would have, because even in the Catholic Church, there were things that, while true, were not formally pronounced and defined until later years.

A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?

[Sunday21]

45 minutes ago, fatima said:

I know this part, thank you; I have read this before.  What I'm looking for is if, following this (or any other) vision, that Smith outlines specifics that were detailed to him.  Not to say that God should have/would have, because even in the Catholic Church, there were things that, while true, were not formally pronounced and defined until later years.

A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?

These statements probably refer to specific instances of church history. Eg Bro Sam is wrong when he....So I suspect that you would need a church historian to answer. If you think for a bit, you can probably think of some disputes about doctrine. past and present in any faith community, despite the existence of a clear leader such as the Pope. 

Here is a link to Fair Mormon. If you click on ‘answers’, you can find some historical disputes. https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/City_of_Nauvoo

Edited April 30, 2018 by Sunday21

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, fatima said:

A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?

Paul's (and other) letters in the New Testament.  He repeatedly has to correct and re-direct the local church leaders.  If the local leaders so quickly go astray then it becomes a simple matter of removing or restricting the Higher level authorities (like Paul) whose calling it was to correct such errors.  This is an event that the LDS church says happened and the Catholic church says did not.

[zil]

2 hours ago, fatima said:

What I'm looking for is if, following this (or any other) vision, that Smith outlines specifics that were detailed to him.

To what end?  The goal was to restore the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.  You don't do that by picking apart the various errors of established churches (who wouldn't likely respond well to that anyway, thus giving Satan an "in" to latch onto their pride in the name of defending their "righteousness").  You do it by creating something that is correct from the foundation up - by restoring that thing (the Church) which is absent.  Having restored it, those with ears to hear and eyes to see will recognize and come to the truth.  That has been the way of restoration every time it has happened - and scripture is full of apostasy and restoration - the prophet called to restore the truth wasn't told to go to the most-correct / least-wrong church and fix it, he was called to establish anew what had been lost.

[zil]

Hmm.  Also, I suspect the purpose of that statement was to explain to Joseph that he should not join any existing church, and basically why.  Remember, this was a revelation to Joseph, in answer to his own prayers.  I don't know that it was originally intended for public consumption (though of course God knew that would come) - that came later (and is good, IMO, but remembering the original context helps understand why it says what it says and doesn't say other things).

Additional thought: To identify the things which were wrong with other creeds, simply¹ compare and contrast with what the Church teaches - that's the answer.

¹Simple is not the same as easy.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, fatima said:

A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?

There's MANY writings showing controversies and places where people are being correct.  Example: Paul's letters, wherein prophetic revelation was used to correct the errors which were creeping up so fast even then.  Once that prophetic revelation was lost, people do their best to correct things themselves, but ultimately man isn't God and (despite their best efforts), things go wrong. 

[Jane_Doe]

(A big picture thing here)

LDS are people/church is very anti-bashing other people/churches.  It's literally our 11th Article of Fatih that says we respect your right to practice/believe as you do.   We do disagree on some doctrines, but we're not going to bash people.

When it came to the Restoration, Christ didn't go about it by listing a bunch of complaints and continue going about complaining about things.  No, He restored Truth and let's people see the difference themselves.  

Edited April 30, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Just_A_Guy]

4 hours ago, fatima said:

A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?

As has been pointed out, there’s plenty in the NT suggesting that local leaders were having trouble toeing the doctrinal party line.  But as for the church-wide leadership (viz, the apostles), Mormonism doesn’t teach that they lost their authority through error; it teaches that they died off without having designated appropriate successors.  Those who took their places and claimed ecclesiastical authority over other local leaders may, in many instances, have been acting out of a sincere desire to move the church and its work forward; but their rise to power and their having taken things into their own hands represented a loss of true authority and a stunting of the revelatory/inspirational process that had enabled early Christianity to distinguish truth from error.

[Traveler]

16 hours ago, fatima said:

Thanks for the reply.  I'm curious, for instance, if God through Smith said that veneration of Mary and the Saints is a false doctrine.  And the reason I ask is because it seems LDS share something similar with Catholics with respect to our ancestors in the faith (so to speak).  I've been at a Mormon ward and there are images of the prophets, relief society women (I'm guessing the foundress of RS?)  I read in another post that a Temple has murals of Adam and Eve.  

So, while I realize you do not pray to them or ask for their intercession with God as we do, you still look to them as examples of a faithful life, right?

 

The great problem with theology in these Last-days is a departure from “The Gospel”.  Modern as well as medieval theology defines “The Gospel” as nothing more than doctrine.  In fact, many define modern Religion in terms of doctrine.   Isaiah described this departure or apostasy as three pillars (See Isaiah chapter 24).  #1. Isaiah tells us that we depart from G-d by “transgressing the Law”.  #2. We depart from G-d by “changing the Ordinances.  And #3. We depart from G-d by breaking the “everlasting Covenant”.

Please note that Isaiah does not talk at all, that the departing from G-d comes from “false doctrine”.  It certainly does – but doctrine is not the problem as much as it follows the problem.  I believe the reason that G-d told Joseph Smith that all religion had departed from him and were teaching abominations was because of their centering on doctrine while transgressions of the Law were taking place – as well and the changing of sacred Ordinances and the breaking of the everlasting Covenant. 

History demonstrates that the Gospel of Love – especially of our fellow man has turned into the gears of misery, war and bloodshed.  Truly the law of love has been transgressed. 

 

Joseph taught that “everlasting Covenant” includes the honor and respect of marriage (between a man and a woman – before G-d) as both a sign of Ordinance and everlasting Covenant.  But celibacy and other perverted forms of marriage has replaced the honor of divine marriage.  And this is an example of an abomination before G-d.

 

The Traveler

Edited April 30, 2018 by Traveler

[Guest]

11 hours ago, fatima said:

A follow up question that just occurred to me...if Christ established the ordinances, sacraments, leadership, etc. while on Earth, are there any writings from early leaders warning the faithful that the leaders were going astray?

It wasn't that the leaders were going astray.  It was that there were no leaders left.  And the populous of the Church ended up going astray without leadership.  They even voted themselves their own Pope without a Divine mandate to do so.

Quote

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 - - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Here Paul addresses the Thessalonians who were expecting the second coming of Christ already.  Paul explained that the Second Coming would not occur until there was a falling away (an apostasy) first.  

[bytebear]

Here is what our official Topical Guide lists as Bible verses to reference.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/apostasy-of-the-early-christian-church?lang=eng&letter=A

 

• changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant, Isa. 24:5.

• this people draw near me with their mouth, Isa. 29:13.

• darkness shall cover the earth, Isa. 60:2.

• a famine … of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8:11.

• his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, Matt. 13:25.

• saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many, Matt. 24:5.

• shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, Matt. 24:24.

• his disciples went back, and walked no more with him, John 6:66.

• shall grievous wolves enter in among you, Acts 20:29.

• there be divisions among you, 1 Cor. 11:18.

• I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him, Gal. 1:6.

• who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey, Gal. 3:1.

• shall not come, except there come a falling away first, 2 Thes. 2:3.

• some having swerved have turned aside, 1 Tim. 1:6.

• giving heed to seducing spirits, 1 Tim. 4:1.

• all they which are in Asia be turned away from me, 2 Tim. 1:15.

• Who concerning the truth have erred, 2 Tim. 2:18.

• Having a form of godliness, but denying the power, 2 Tim. 3:5.

• turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables, 2 Tim. 4:4.

• profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, Titus 1:16.

• From whence come wars and fightings among you, James 4:1.

• false prophets also among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1.

• being led away with the error of the wicked, 2 Pet. 3:17.

• now are there many antichrists, 1 Jn. 2:18.

• many false prophets are gone out into the world, 1 Jn. 4:1.

• certain men crept in … denying the only Lord God, Jude 1:4.

• which say they are apostles, and are not, Rev. 2:2.

• thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, Rev. 3:16.

• to make war with the saints, Rev. 13:7.

 

[bytebear]

As to the creeds being an abomination, my take is this.  I believe the Lord warned against wolves entering in with the sheep, and as such, they began to deceive the church members and after time introduced ideas not in accordance with doctrine.  The creeds themselves are abominable for two reasons.  1) they canonized doctrine without authority.  No apostle nor prophet wrote them. and 2) they contain canonized concepts that are simply false (not all, but some).  And so the Lord looks upon them as incorrect teachings, canonized without His authority.