Noah's Flood

[Rob Osborn]

12 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:

Couldn't tell you. Wasn't there. There's simply no observable evidence either for or against the hypothesis.

But I'm not afraid to recognize that the story of such an event was written down sometime between 40 and 80 years after Christ's death by an unidentified, biased author who likely never met Jesus. So I'm willing to consider that it may have been literal, story telling device, or legend.

Whatever way you read it, you completely ignored the content of my post, which I find peculiar.

I was one step ahead of you. I received the very answer I was looking for in your reply. Thanks.

[MarginOfError]

6 minutes ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

Read this and your previous post and then noticed your profile states "uncooperative Mormon". 

Makes sense. 

You got me. Let's ignore the guy that doesn't buy into mormon orthodoxy because of an Internet tagline.

[MarginOfError]

1 minute ago, Rob Osborn said:

I was one step ahead of you. I received the very answer I was looking for in your reply. Thanks.

Oooo...you discovered I'm not a biblical literalist. I feel so condemned by all that cryptic, not-saying-anything-more-because-you'll-use -it-against-me strategizing.

[Rob Osborn]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

LOL something else entirely; nothing to do with geology.

It was analogous, you missed my point.

[omegaseamaster75]

18 hours ago, Union_Pipe_Layer_1337 said:

The flood absolutely covered the entire world as we know it, I once had a surreal dream where I witnessed all of the animals hop on the Ark with Noah himself. I felt the spirit was speaking to me through my dreams. 

Really? tell us all about it...

[omegaseamaster75]

20 hours ago, person0 said:

I think Pangaea was the geographical state at the time.  I also think the flood was over the entire earth.  A single super continent would make this more easily feasible.

How old do you think the earth is? How long do you think it takes continents to form?

[BeccaKirstyn]

1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

You got me. Let's ignore the guy that doesn't buy into mormon orthodoxy because of an Internet tagline.

I mean...you're kinda asking for it, my friend 😬 

All jokes aside though, I don't agree with your statements but we're all entitled to our opinions! 

[Vort]

40 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

19 hours ago, Union_Pipe_Layer_1337 said:

The flood absolutely covered the entire world as we know it, I once had a surreal dream where I witnessed all of the animals hop on the Ark with Noah himself. I felt the spirit was speaking to me through my dreams. 

Really? tell us all about it...

When someone reveals something he considers sacred, I think it behooves us to treat it with care, even if we don't believe it. Same goes with Rob's ideas, though openly preaching them puts that in another camp. If UPLleet think he received a revelation in a dream about Noah's ark, I'm not going to mock him for it, and I'm probably not going to try to talk him out of it. If I were expected to believe some doctrinal idea because someone had a dream, that's a different matter.

[person0]

1 hour ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

How old do you think the earth is? How long do you think it takes continents to form?

I believe that the earth could potentially be up to millions of years old if counting from the beginning of its creation.  However, from the moment of the fall of Adam until today, it is less than 7000 years old.  Continental movement would be easily accomplished by the Lord.

[person0]

2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

. . . as naive as the idea that a week has seven days because of Genesis

A week has 7 days because that is how God taught Adam to observe time.  Genesis was written after the fact when Moses observed in vision what happened and then wrote it down.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

It was analogous, you missed my point.

Then make your point. I think you missed 90% of what I said anyway LOL

[CV75]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I believe that the earth could potentially be up to millions of years old if counting from the beginning of its creation.  However, from the moment of the fall of Adam until today, it is less than 7000 years old.  Continental movement would be easily accomplished by the Lord.

A few weeks ago someone in Sunday School asked when the Flood took place. I volunteered that according to the Bible and our beliefs about 2350 BC. I was quickly corrected that we as a Church don't know. Then I realized the Church's published Chronology http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/bd/chrono doesn't offer a calculation for several of these ancient events. We can calculate them according to the Bible timing, but the numbering systems were different among those systems than the base ten system we use.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Oooo...you discovered I'm not a biblical literalist. I feel so condemned by all that cryptic, not-saying-anything-more-because-you'll-use -it-against-me strategizing.

And that was the reply I was waiting for. I don't have anything against those who don't believe literal events in the Bible, just nice to know where they stand.

[Rob Osborn]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Then make your point. I think you missed 90% of what I said anyway LOL

I was making a layered analogy to explain the use of "circular".

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I was making a layered analogy to explain the use of "circular".

LOL this reply is just as circular as your last 3+ posts, and only serves to add layers of obfuscation to your straw man. Unless you can come up with something engaging, I think I've exceeded my usual limit for inanity.

[Rob Osborn]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

LOL this reply is just as circular as your last 3+ posts, and only serves to add layers of obfuscation to your straw man. Unless you can come up with something engaging, I think I've exceeded my usual limit for inanity.

Yeah, I'm finding that this method of communication is kind of working for me. I get tired also of the lack of straightforward engagement so why not layer it up.

[Lost Boy]

Here is the thing. I can't think of a single miracle recorded by a first person author that couldn't be explained away by natural phenomena. 

A flood that covered the entire earth cannot be explained by natural phenomena. It could only be accomplished by very unnatural means.  This would essentially be proof of God's existence. 

I personally don't think God gives us any proof of his existence. The best you get is weak evidence.  And you get the holy ghost testifying to you.  Proof will not be found. 

Thus faith is required. 

[JohnsonJones]

2 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Here is the thing. I can't think of a single miracle recorded by a first person author that couldn't be explained away by natural phenomena. 

A flood that covered the entire earth cannot be explained by natural phenomena. It could only be accomplished by very unnatural means.  This would essentially be proof of God's existence. 

I personally don't think God gives us any proof of his existence. The best you get is weak evidence.  And you get the holy ghost testifying to you.  Proof will not be found. 

Thus faith is required. 

Well, it depends.  Let's take a hypothetical...

Let's say some of the ancient myths are actually true.  In one of these the world was supported by the pillars of the earth.  In this view, great waters were underneath the earth.  Now let's say, in the beginning, these stores of water in the earth were not on land.  There were no oceans. 

Now lets' say, the entirety of the oceans got dumped our from beneath the earth to the sky and back down onto the planet within a month's time.  That's a LOT of water.  On an even fall on the planet, you'd have just as much on land as on what we now call the oceans.  Conceivably it could cover most of the land up as it then rushed into the lowest parts of the earth to become the oceans we know today.  It could have been a very natural phenomenon...but not one that we've really seen since (though there are possibilities of seeing similar type events on Titan...but that's extremely new).

On a more local level, but still rather large, let's say a meteor hit the earth.  If it hit in the gulf of Mexico (a hypothesis of some scientists...though this would be millions of years ago, not thousands) than it probably would have created a wave of water that might have even covered up the Appalachians and possibly even to the continental divide...depending on the size and force of the impact (and probable extinction event would occur as well after such a strike). 

There are many various ways things could have happened, but that we do not know an explanation of.  If a meteor hits the earth, it may be explainable by science, but at the same time, it could also be the Lord directing it in that way.  There are many things we do not know, and have not seen in the relatively short span that mankind has been recording history and performing scientific experiments.  If there was a worldwide flood, I expect that it WOULD have a natural phenomena explanation behind it that our scientist would be able to use.  It probably would be similar to their explanations of other extinction level events that have happened in the earth's past (albeit...millions of years ago in our current understanding) which have scientific explanations behind them...but could equally be seen as being allowed or caused by a higher being possibly by those who are religious.

[Lost Boy]

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Well, it depends.  Let's take a hypothetical...

Let's say some of the ancient myths are actually true.  In one of these the world was supported by the pillars of the earth.  In this view, great waters were underneath the earth.  Now let's say, in the beginning, these stores of water in the earth were not on land.  There were no oceans. 

Now lets' say, the entirety of the oceans got dumped our from beneath the earth to the sky and back down onto the planet within a month's time.  That's a LOT of water.  On an even fall on the planet, you'd have just as much on land as on what we now call the oceans.  Conceivably it could cover most of the land up as it then rushed into the lowest parts of the earth to become the oceans we know today.  It could have been a very natural phenomenon...but not one that we've really seen since (though there are possibilities of seeing similar type events on Titan...but that's extremely new).

On a more local level, but still rather large, let's say a meteor hit the earth.  If it hit in the gulf of Mexico (a hypothesis of some scientists...though this would be millions of years ago, not thousands) than it probably would have created a wave of water that might have even covered up the Appalachians and possibly even to the continental divide...depending on the size and force of the impact (and probable extinction event would occur as well after such a strike). 

There are many various ways things could have happened, but that we do not know an explanation of.  If a meteor hits the earth, it may be explainable by science, but at the same time, it could also be the Lord directing it in that way.  There are many things we do not know, and have not seen in the relatively short span that mankind has been recording history and performing scientific experiments.  If there was a worldwide flood, I expect that it WOULD have a natural phenomena explanation behind it that our scientist would be able to use.  It probably would be similar to their explanations of other extinction level events that have happened in the earth's past (albeit...millions of years ago in our current understanding) which have scientific explanations behind them...but could equally be seen as being allowed or caused by a higher being possibly by those who are religious.

The only issue there is that there is zero evidence of a great flood. No geological record whatsoever. 

I am not saying God would not have the power to erase all traces, but in any first person recorded miracle, it has not been the case. 

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Yeah, I'm finding that this method of communication is kind of working for me. I get tired also of the lack of straightforward engagement so why not layer it up.

Yep! And only for you! LOL Keep on layering it on LOL

[Rob Osborn]

4 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

The only issue there is that there is zero evidence of a great flood. No geological record whatsoever. 

I am not saying God would not have the power to erase all traces, but in any first person recorded miracle, it has not been the case. 

Zero evidence for a flood is like saying there's zero evidence the world is round. The geologic evidence of catastrophic flooding is everywhere. Sedimentary rocks are found on every continent. Even geologists don't debate the reality that at one time or another the land was covered in water. 

[Rob Osborn]

30 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yep! And only for you! LOL Keep on layering it on LOL

Reminds me of the line of a play my brother was in back in high school- "layer cake", "layer cake!"

I will get real simple though- "evidence" can be seen as "man-made" if all they do is look through the lens of man. Or, evidence can be seen as coming from God himself. I don't rely on the hand of man for evidence. It's thus how I can see the truth of the flood. It stays as the greatest testimony on the entire face of the Earth. He who has eyes to see will see and he who has ears to hear will hear. I will give you a clue though- he who is blinded cannot see and he who is deaf cannot hear. I realize I live amongst the deaf and the blind.

[Traveler]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:10 PM, Lost Boy said:

Do you believe a flood covered the entire Earth?  I have never been able to accept this.  I could accept that Noah was in a flood and found himself swept out to sea, but a flood that covered all the earth??  No.

What is your thought on this?

 

I have more questions than I have answers concerning the epoch story of the flood.  I believe it is possible that the Biblical record of the flood is missing important details that have been filled in with speculation within the religious community.

The earth could have been covered with water but we do not know how deep the cover was?  For example, if some places were only one molecule deep – technically it is “completely covered but it would be most difficult to find empirical evidence of such a shallow covering.

I am amused that there are many in the religious community that believe the ark was the only means of preserving life but do not believe in evolution.  The ark is not of sufficient size to even hold the breeding stock of all the known species of worms– let alone all the necessary life forms for the species that currently exist on earth.  Many will proclaim that evolution has never produced offspring of a different species also claim to believe the ark preserved all species that exist today.  Such thinking is similar to planning a space exploration trip to the sun – but planning to go at night so that the space ship will not be burned up.

There are also broad differences in genetic diversity in modern human populations that cannot be empirically explained within the 5 thousand years between the flood and our time.  Unless we realize major amounts of information are missing from either our Biblical scripture or our historical accounts (or both) – both written and empirically historical. 

I can live with questions that do not have answers but I will not accept answers that cannot be questioned.

 

The Traveler

[BJ64]

I can see no scientific way that the entire earth could have been flooded. However I also recognize that God is all powerful so I will not discount the flood as just a story. 

I will add however that despite what some in the church may have said, I am not a young earth creationist. I believe the earth is billions of years old. When you have an eternity can to create an earth it doesn’t matter how long it takes. However time is not measured to God anyway.

[MarginOfError]

On 5/4/2018 at 6:10 PM, person0 said:

A week has 7 days because that is how God taught Adam to observe time.  Genesis was written after the fact when Moses observed in vision what happened and then wrote it down.

It is far more likely that the Hebrews coopted the lunar calendar* into their creation myth (myth being the academic term for origin story). 

 

* The lunar calendar was developed on the observation that the moon orbits the earth every 28 days with remarkable predictability. That 28 day cycle was broken into four 7 day periods for convenience of tracking time.