Church announces date for complete split from BSA


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25 minutes ago, mgridle said:

No.  Traditionally speaking Boy Scouts was uber-conservative and Girl Scouts was uber-liberal-the Church a traditionally ultra conservative organization did not like the values promolugated by Girl Scouts.  Strange to see Girl Scouts be more conservative than BSA now . . .weird.

Thanks. 

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38 minutes ago, mgridle said:

I agree, and I agree that you agree, just that it's human nature.  Why push boys to get xyz merit badge to get Life rank when the program is going away.  My guess is there will be an initial surge where motivated boys and their parents work on the BSA program, but certainly the last six months, nope.  Sure they will meet, go on campouts, etc (my guess is those things will be a part of the new program), there will just be very, very little interest this time next year in doing anything remotely associated with BSA.

I will probably put my son in Trail Life this fall.

I think we will see a surge the next 12 months and then a transition phase the last few months of next year. 

If your scouting program is about churning out advancements and eagles it may flounder some.  If it's about building boys, then it really doesn't matter if the boys get badges or not.

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28 minutes ago, mgridle said:

...in many ways they are more Christian than many Mormons are-especially the "God is just love" crowd and the First Great Commandment "Love God", really means "love your neighbor" crap...

Please explain what you mean by this. On one hand you seem to view other Christians in a positive way but at the end you invalidate that positive view with the word "crap".

M.

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I have always loved what the BSA was "traditionally" about, unfortunately I saw way to often that scouting programs were not being properly utilized in our units. Like others have stated, I saw this coming from a mile away and fully support it.

A gospel centered/focused program could be utilized a lot more affectively for today’s youth.

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3 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Please explain what you mean by this. On one hand you seem to view other Christians in a positive way but at the end you invalidate that positive view with the word "crap".

M.

I was a little confused by the post as well for what it's worth

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2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

- The Anti-BSOA-Lehis
- Helaman's Teens
- Team MRNI (from Beacon academy)
- My Little Mormons: Discipleship is Magic
- Die Füllfederhalterarmee von Zil  (Stick it in a German to English translator)

Thoughts?

I don't know.  I''m having trouble figuring out which one you'd be favoring at this time.  I think anyone would have to look at the list above for a LONG TIME to figure that out.  But I wouldn't have a problem with Helaman's Army or something similar.

Edited by Guest
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52 minutes ago, Crypto said:

My thought process was along the lines of how both genders potentially having close proximity to each other during activities much like camping and not wanting to participate in the potential risks that follow. In my area at least for one week they are trying to fill a single boy scout camp with lds boy only troops. (quite a big area btw multi stake....)

I'm open to being incorrect, girls have been allowed in venturing for quite some time.

There was supposed to be an announcement from the BSA this year about how girls will be integrated in the Boy Scouts program, but I missed it if it was already made. On the Cub level, Packs may be integrated or not, based on how the chartering organization wants it, but dens are to remain segregated. That means when it comes to activities, the weekly den meetings will remain all-boy and all-girl, but the monthly pack meetings will only include both boy dens and girl dens if that's what the chartering org wants. If they don't, the the packs are separate and have separate pack meetings. At the time of the initial press release, even the BSA expressed concern about integrated patrols (perhaps even troops, but I don't recall), since leadership is a requirement for advancement and gender dynamics get wonky. Separate patrols and troops (mirroring the Cub structure) would alleviate a lot of that concern, as well take care of camping concerns.

Camp is an interesting case because I was wondering how day camp would be handled (and definitely scout camp, but day camp would arise first). Would BSA host a week just for those that want to maintain segregated packs to respect that structure (similar to some scout camps that host an LDS-only week)? or will it be mixed regardless? Gender dynamics again come into play here, but not as marked as with scout camp - primarily because of the overnight aspect. To my knowledge BSA hasn't announced their proposed solution for this.

So without further announcements from the BSA stating, "We're including integrated tents in our scout camps," I don't think it's reasonable to assume separate-but-parallel programs drove the Church out of scouting.

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1 hour ago, Crypto said:

My understanding of the Boy Scout program is that it easily involves the gospel, and according to their bylaws requires religious participation. The scouting program teaching general principles and encourages each chartering organization to provide the religious support. The program method is more expansive than just camping. It's bad implementation that causes it to not be gospel related. 

You are correct, more or less, and I didn't mean Scouting never had any gospel related strengths in it's heyday. But, I'm not really an outdoorsy type of person, and I'm not a big camper. That's about 90% of what Scouting was where I was attending, and I would rather have used that time to focus on Priesthood instruction and Mission prep. I'm sure that was not the case in every troop, but that was my experience and I just couldn't get into it.

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1 hour ago, mgridle said:

No it doesn't run it closer to custom youth programs.  The genders are always separate and the activities are always tailored to the specific genders. Always! And Activity Days is really a joke, it has been around for a small amount of time with very little structure.

You've just made an argument in favor of staying with the BSA.

1 hour ago, mgridle said:

No it doesn't run it closer to custom youth programs. 

I'm not comparing integrated BSA to BSA/Church programs, I'm comparing integrated BSA with non-BSA Church programs. So Young Mens/Young Womens and Activity Days Boys/Girls.

Quote

The genders are always separate and the activities are always tailored to the specific genders. Always!

For the youth, the activities are not always separate. Once a month the YM and YW get together for their mutual improvement. Kind of like a court of honor, but with more fun - so maybe like a pack meeting.

And how is it the activities are always tailored to the specific genders when they are running the same program? It's because they have weekly activities in segregated groups with their own leaders. That's exactly what the BSA has proposed with the Cub Scouts dens, and I haven't heard any followup announcements on the Boy Scouts patrols. If they keep single-sex patrols, then it sounds more favorable to adopt that.

Quote

And Activity Days is really a joke, it has been around for a small amount of time with very little structure.

Well gosh, then instead of creating a new program whole-cloth for both the boys and the girls, maybe we should replace that structureless farce with a program that's already been around for a long time, that works for our boys, and is now accepting girls in segregated dens.

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27 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

So without further announcements from the BSA stating, "We're including integrated tents in our scout camps," I don't think it's reasonable to assume separate-but-parallel programs drove the Church out of scouting.

Like any decision or change there are going to be multiple factors that play into it. If I had to narrow it down to largest cause, my guess would actually be that the program wasn't run the way it was intended at the ward level for the young men. Non-standardized program world wide. Next would be lack of interest in camping. (Even though scouting has non-camping options...) . Lack of interest being designated a scout by boys. Changing values in the BSA organization (With the final act bringing it over the threshold introducing girls). The desire to move away from the people who espouse 'I find God in the mountains, and religion is bad' .

Cub Scouting has been pretty solid in my experience. Separate patrols would work in a troop, but not so much in overnight troop activities, or summer camp. You make a solid case for cub scouting.

Edited by Crypto
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7 minutes ago, Crypto said:

Like any decision or change there are going to be multiple factors that play into it. If I had to narrow it down to largest cause, my guess would actually be that the program wasn't run the way it was intended at the ward level for the young men. Non-standardized program world wide. Next would be lack of interest in camping. (Even though scouting has non-camping options...) . Lack of interest being designated a scout by boys. Changing values in the BSA organization (With the final act bringing it over the threshold introducing girls). The desire to move away from the people who espouse 'I find God in the mountains, and religion is bad' .

Cub Scouting has been pretty solid in my experience. Separate patrols would work in a troop, but not so much in overnight troop activities, or summer camp. You make a solid case for cub scouting.

I don't disagree with most of what you've posted. Lack of interest or an improperly run local program is not a slight against the BSA, but why pay the dues if we aren't getting the full benefit. BSA has been opening itself to a morality that traditional organizations are uncomfortable with. Of course, they let the charter org decide who the leaders will be, and which youth are let in, but my understanding is that if a lawsuit comes the BSA comes away looking clean and the charter org closes its doors. The Church doesn't need to be that sort of a target (and I'm a bit surprised no one's publicly tested the legal waters on us). I've seen the BSA drifting away from us and figured a split was on the horizon (especially after the older youth program was revamped). But I don't see admitting girls as being the disparate value the drove us away.

Or to put it in other words, without those other issues, I could see the Church working with the BSA to provide for a successful girls program paralleling the one that's already in place for the boys. In fact, the Church is doing that right now, but leaving the BSA behind. So I'm not even seeing it as an extra straw. (and honestly, the camel is not laden with straw here).

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5 hours ago, e-eye said:

I think we will see a surge the next 12 months and then a transition phase the last few months of next year. 

If your scouting program is about churning out advancements and eagles it may flounder some.  If it's about building boys, then it really doesn't matter if the boys get badges or not.

I dislike the "churning out", but if you don't have a youth program that set measurable goals for boys to achieve, it's not better than an after-schools club. Young men need a program that sets goals and have them achieve those goals-it is extremely important.  It's not envogue to say it b/c "we have to be fair" and everyone cries over the boy who didn't make it . . .well did he probably didn't make it b/c he didn't put forth enough effort.  And that's an important lesson to learn in life-if you want something you have to work really hard to make it happen.

If you want to grow men, you have to train them on how to set goals and achieve them, you don't "build boys" by having a social club, get-together where everyone sings kumbayaa and plays basketball every week-you build a weak generation.

Edited by mgridle
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5 hours ago, Maureen said:

Please explain what you mean by this. On one hand you seem to view other Christians in a positive way but at the end you invalidate that positive view with the word "crap".

M.

No, I was speaking about what is occurring inside the Church, that was the crap phrase; more and more inside the Church (not really from leadership, but from members and a few local leadership), is this idea that really what the Great Commandment means is that we should just "love better" or "love more", that to love one's neighbor means to accept them and welcome them 100% into the fold, regardless of what they believe, or even how they behave, b/c afterall, we just need to "love".  And that be doing that, we really are fulfilling the 1st Great Commandment.

Which is total trash, b/c Christ said, if ye love me keep my commandments, and there are a bunch of commandments that the "love better" crowd simply disregard.

Edited by mgridle
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5 hours ago, mordorbund said:

There was supposed to be an announcement from the BSA this year about how girls will be integrated in the Boy Scouts program, but I missed it if it was already made. On the Cub level, Packs may be integrated or not, based on how the chartering organization wants it, but dens are to remain segregated. That means when it comes to activities, the weekly den meetings will remain all-boy and all-girl, but the monthly pack meetings will only include both boy dens and girl dens if that's what the chartering org wants. If they don't, the the packs are separate and have separate pack meetings. At the time of the initial press release, even the BSA expressed concern about integrated patrols (perhaps even troops, but I don't recall), since leadership is a requirement for advancement and gender dynamics get wonky. Separate patrols and troops (mirroring the Cub structure) would alleviate a lot of that concern, as well take care of camping concerns.

Camp is an interesting case because I was wondering how day camp would be handled (and definitely scout camp, but day camp would arise first). Would BSA host a week just for those that want to maintain segregated packs to respect that structure (similar to some scout camps that host an LDS-only week)? or will it be mixed regardless? Gender dynamics again come into play here, but not as marked as with scout camp - primarily because of the overnight aspect. To my knowledge BSA hasn't announced their proposed solution for this.

Simple solution. Only allow girls and gay boys in. Problems solved.

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5 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

You are correct, more or less, and I didn't mean Scouting never had any gospel related strengths in it's heyday. But, I'm not really an outdoorsy type of person, and I'm not a big camper. That's about 90% of what Scouting was where I was attending, and I would rather have used that time to focus on Priesthood instruction and Mission prep. I'm sure that was not the case in every troop, but that was my experience and I just couldn't get into it.

True. But....it's a bit too easy, imo, a mistake to make, as the natural core root of scouting is...you know....scouting.

noun
1.
an act or instance of reconnoitering; reconnaissance.

Robert Baden-Powell literally started scouting off of military scouting.

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5 hours ago, mordorbund said:

But I don't see admitting girls as being the disparate value the drove us away.

Totally agree. I doubt it was related much at all, as the announcement came so close on the heels of that move.

That being said:

There may have been, perhaps, some consideration in regards to the fact that the inclusion of girls in scouts is, primarily, political capitulation to social justice activism and attitudes, which associate much too closely with other very dangerous ideals. It is, in short, when paired with the current climate and their other changes, another piece of evidence that the BSA is moving steadily into Satan's camp (pun intended), and that is no camp we want to be a part of, in the end.

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35 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

True. But....it's a bit too easy, imo, a mistake to make, as the natural core root of scouting is...you know....scouting.

noun

1.
an act or instance of reconnoitering; reconnaissance.

Robert Baden-Powell literally started scouting off of military scouting.

Oh very much agreed. I don't think Scouting did anything wrong in that regard, I just wasn't very interested in it, and I remember feeling listless and bored in a lot of Young Men/Boy Scout activities when I was younger as a result. On the other hand I would have been (and still am) a lot more interested in gospel instruction, and I feel a program set up along those lines would be more effective in reaching youth who are like me.

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31 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Oh very much agreed. I don't think Scouting did anything wrong in that regard, I just wasn't very interested in it, and I remember feeling listless and bored in a lot of Young Men/Boy Scout activities when I was younger as a result. On the other hand I would have been (and still am) a lot more interested in gospel instruction, and I feel a program set up along those lines would be more effective in reaching youth who are like me.

For what it's worth there are those like one of my brothers who when he was in young mens would simply not attend when the activity didn't involve scouting. (Which is what happened a majority of the time) There is importance in drawing a balance to develop young men rather than having another seminary program (Which is a wonderful program).

Edited by Crypto
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17 minutes ago, Crypto said:

For what it's worth there are those like one of my brothers who when he was in young mens would simply not attend when the activity didn't involve scouting. (Which is what happened a majority of the time) There is importance in drawing a balance to develop young men rather than having another seminary program (Which is a wonderful program).

Fair enough. There isn't a one size fits all approach to teaching the Gospel that's for sure. But these days, especially in the caustic, secular enviroment kids are growing up in now, they need a lot more instruction in the Armor of God. There should still be some fun, physical activities, but the Gospel instruction should have primacy of place in my opinion.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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22 hours ago, mordorbund said:

There was supposed to be an announcement from the BSA this year about how girls will be integrated in the Boy Scouts program, but I missed it if it was already made. On the Cub level, Packs may be integrated or not, based on how the chartering organization wants it, but dens are to remain segregated. That means when it comes to activities, the weekly den meetings will remain all-boy and all-girl, but the monthly pack meetings will only include both boy dens and girl dens if that's what the chartering org wants. If they don't, the the packs are separate and have separate pack meetings. At the time of the initial press release, even the BSA expressed concern about integrated patrols (perhaps even troops, but I don't recall), since leadership is a requirement for advancement and gender dynamics get wonky. Separate patrols and troops (mirroring the Cub structure) would alleviate a lot of that concern, as well take care of camping concerns.

Camp is an interesting case because I was wondering how day camp would be handled (and definitely scout camp, but day camp would arise first). Would BSA host a week just for those that want to maintain segregated packs to respect that structure (similar to some scout camps that host an LDS-only week)? or will it be mixed regardless? Gender dynamics again come into play here, but not as marked as with scout camp - primarily because of the overnight aspect. To my knowledge BSA hasn't announced their proposed solution for this.

So without further announcements from the BSA stating, "We're including integrated tents in our scout camps," I don't think it's reasonable to assume separate-but-parallel programs drove the Church out of scouting.

 

Just to round this out, it looks like the announcement was made last week. The new system has segregated troops. I haven't seen anything about summer camp though.

 

Quote

Scouts BSA Troops Will Be Single-gender Troops

Scouts_BSA_Troop_Structure-300x173.png

Concerning the single-gender troop structure in the Scouts BSA program, it will be as follows:

Troop structure will remain single gender, meaning a Scouts BSA troop will be made up of all boys or it will be made up of all girls. There will be no co-ed or mixed troops. Boys and girls will not be in troops together. Boys will be in troops with only boys, and girls will be in troops with only girls. 

This will take effect during a scheduled launch on February 1, 2019. 

Find more information about Scouts BSA at www.scouting.org/familyscouting.

 

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5 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

 

Just to round this out, it looks like the announcement was made last week. The new system has segregated troops. I haven't seen anything about summer camp though.

 

 

Fat chance segregated troops last for very long.  Separate but equal? Not likely.  It takes enormous resources to run a scout troop effectively; they won't be separated for long.  It's the boiling frog scenario-just look how far scouts has traveled in 4 years and the idea that they will be separate for long holds b/c . . . . .

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14 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Fat chance segregated troops last for very long.  Separate but equal? Not likely.  It takes enormous resources to run a scout troop effectively; they won't be separated for long.  It's the boiling frog scenario-just look how far scouts has traveled in 4 years and the idea that they will be separate for long holds b/c . . . . .

okay

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28 minutes ago, mgridle said:

Fat chance segregated troops last for very long.  Separate but equal? Not likely.  It takes enormous resources to run a scout troop effectively; they won't be separated for long.  It's the boiling frog scenario-just look how far scouts has traveled in 4 years and the idea that they will be separate for long holds b/c . . . . .

Exactly.   

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