Lack of Imagination is the Disease. Books are the Cure.


unixknight
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The other night my son and I were talking about Dungeons & Dragons.  He's been playing since he was a child, as I introduced him to the game when he was seven years old.  He's twenty-five now.  We were talking about the value, or lack thereof, of the fine details in a game like keeping  track of  the character's encumbrance (how much weight they're physically carrying) or ammo or rations.  A lot of players generally don't bother with that kind of minutia.

We were discussing our very different views on what Dungeons & Dragons is.  

We did agree that Dungeons & Dragons is not, nor has it ever been, a combat game.  This is why the combat system in the game is somewhat vague, with all effects of injury and fatigue being rolled into the simple Hit Points game mechanic.  There aren't specific hit locations, no effects of armor or weapon wear, no in-depth rules on fighting style or form.

It's true that, over the years, various game supplements have attempted to add in some of these elements for players who want them, and some optional rules in the various core rulebooks have introduced things like specific hit locations or equipment wear, but they've never been a part of the core game because Dungeons & Dragons simply isn't a combat game.

Dungeons & Dragons is a role playing game.  Now, the meaning of that has changed quite a bit over the years.  My son sees Dungeons & Dragons as a narrative game, a story.  The Dungeon Master is telling a tale and the players are taking on the persona of characters in the story.  Published adventures in the current (5th) edition follow the narrative structure of an epic tale, with acts, a beginning, middle, climax and end.    That isn't without prior precedent.  White Wolf games like Vampire: The Masquerade are run by a game master who's known as the Storyteller, and the game was designed to feel narrative.  This is how my son sees Dungeons & Dragons, and this is how he thinks when he's playing.  

As he expressed these thoughts, I realized for the first time that when he plays Dungeons & Dragons, it's an utterly different experience from how I play it.  I began playing the game in the Fall of 1988.  This was shortly before the 2nd Edition was published and the game was still called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.  (There was a non-advanced D&D, and I did play it a bit, but it wasn't my main game and it was eventually discontinued.  "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons" became just "Dungeons & Dragons" again in 2000, with the release of what we call 3rd Edition by the new publisher, Wizards of the Coast.)  Back then, game balance wasn't much of a factor.  Some character classes were much more powerful than others, but every class had some of its own unique abilities and a niche to fill.  Adventure modules weren't built like a story, they were build like an intelligence report.  The Dungeon Master wasn't telling a story, but rather serving only as a referee, and the person whose job it was to describe the world and control all of the monsters and non-player characters (NPCs).  There wasn't a narrative structure per se,  though it wasn't unusual to have adventures follow a rudimentary form of one.

We weren't characters in a story.  We were characters living in a detailed world with magic and monsters and all sorts of fantastical elements.  I would imagine myself in the body of my character, thinking about the sounds of creaking leather holding my armor in place, the weight of my sword in hand, the crunch of snow under my boots as I broke camp, smelling the crisp, morning air on a world that was home to all sorts of mythical beasts.  What would it be like to fight a troll?  To cast a spell?  To ride a horse while aiming a lance at an ogre?  The idea of a role playing game was to use one's imagination to be someone else; someone heroic, or powerful.  To play Dungeons & Dragons was to enjoy the ultimate form of escapist entertainment.  As my characters, I wasn't worrying about the story as a tale told in a book.  I didn't think about events as story elements.  I worried about things like having enough gold coins to cover a night in an inn and a hot meal.  I worried about whether or not I would have enough arrows in my quiver to make it until I could replenish my ammunition.  I worried about my horse being killed under me as I rode into battle against a dragon.  I worried about whether or not I'd survive a fight against a horde of orcs rushing at me.

Let me tell you, the possibility of getting killed in that game made it much more thrilling because if your imagination was vivid enough, you might even feel a little fear.

After I said some of these things to my son, he paused a moment before responding.  He then looked a little sad.  He said "My imagination isn't as good as yours."  I asked him why, and he said something very interesting.  He pointed out that, when I was a kid, video games were pretty primitive, compared to today, in terms of graphics.  They were blocky, pixelated, 8-bit games with 16 colors (maybe).  He pointed out that, when playing such a game, you still have to use your imagination because what you see on screen just doesn't look real at all.  Then he compared that with the kinds of games he played when he was younger... still not as good as today's graphics but far, far better than what I had.  He said that it meant he didn't have to use his imagination as much, and so now he just couldn't visualize things in the kind of explicit, fine detail I could.  

That, he said, is why the flavor of Dungeons & Dragons has changed.  In the early days, it was purely role playing, with comparatively little overall structure and not a lot of game balance.  Later, it began to take on a more video game-ish feel as it tried to replicate some of the elements of computer RPGs.  By 4th Edition, it very much felt like an MMO, such as EverQuest II or World of Warcraft.  Today, it's a game of storytelling.  Things are spelled out  more for the players, visual elements aren't as important to gameplay.  Adventure modules are laid out like a movie script, with well defined acts, a specific beginning and a specific ending.  Yes, older modules had a beginning and ending as well, but the endings tended to be much more open and overall felt more like a sandbox than story rails.

He's right.  5th Edition certainly could be played as a more hardcore role playing game, but it would take the right set of players... players with very vivid imaginations who were more interested in the immersion than the tale.  Today's D&D players don't care about tracking encumbrance, inventorying spell components, maintaining weapons and armor...  Those things are pretty boring on their face... but what I find thrilling about them is the feeling that they matter... because in reality little things like that matter, and the more I have to deal with them in character, the more real the character feels and the better the immersion is.

In a sense, my son actually doesn't have that problem as severely as many others because when he was a kid he liked to read.  He never really was much of a movie buff, but once he discovered books he was off to the races.  Nothing exercises and fuels the imagination like a good book, and I firmly believe that today, books are the key to counteracting the mental laziness caused by games that let you outsource all of your thinking and dreaming.

I'm not bashing video games here.  I love them, even modern ones.  Just this year I've beaten Mass Effect: Andromeda, Fallout 4 and Witcher 3.  They are fun and definitely serve an entertainment function... but they shouldn't be the mainstay of entertainment for kids.  Let your kids play video games and watch TV, but encourage them to read.  A lot.  Do whatever it takes to get them into reading.  Bribe them with rewards for finishing books if you must.  Let them stay up an extra half hour past bedtime if they agree to use that time to read.  Absolutely do not ever say 'no' when they ask for a book to read.  Books are not too expensive.  Used bookstores and eBay are a gift from God for the sheer variety and the insanely low cost.  There's never an excuse not to buy books for your kids.  

The benefit isn't just in the imagination.  Did you know that studies have shown that the most reliable way to increase your IQ is to read a lot of books?  It's true.  People who read a lot are more successful professionally and more wealthy, on average, than people who don't.

After this conversation with my oldest, I decided to start really encouraging my younger kids to read.  I'm encouraging my 10-year-old daughter to finish reading The Hobbit, and not to watch the movies, at least until after she's finished it.  (Well, the Hobbit movies stink anyway so maybe we'll just skip that entirely.) I took my 6-year-old son to the bookstore and let him choose a couple of books we've been reading together.  He saw a toy guitar he wanted, and I told him that when he can read these new books to me without needing any help, I'll buy him that guitar...

...along with more books.

 

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1 minute ago, unixknight said:

We did agree that Dungeons & Dragons is not, nor has it ever been, a combat game.  This is why the combat system in the game is somewhat vague, with all effects of injury and fatigue being rolled into the simple Hit Points game mechanic.  There aren't specific hit locations, no effects of armor or weapon wear, no in-depth rules on fighting style or form.

It's true that, over the years, various game supplements have attempted to add in some of these elements for players who want them, and some optional rules in the various core rulebooks have introduced things like specific hit locations or equipment wear, but they've never been a part of the core game because Dungeons & Dragons simply isn't a combat game.

A friend of mine actually got upset at how non-specific such rules were and decided to create a combat system that took many more factors into account.  He developed a 15-second round.  He factored all those details you were talking about.  The result of his system was that a single 15-second round in the game took a bit over an hour to get through.  It took us two full nights of gaming just to get through one battle.

I pled with him to realize that realism must be sacrificed for practicality of play.  He stuck to the notion of reality in combat being paramount.  I asked him why his rules on electricity violated the laws of physics.  He said that it's magic, that's part of the game.  So, he is in a game about magic and fantasy role-playing, but he is insistent upon reality...  

We stopped playing after two sessions.  A new game was started with a new GM.

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7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

A friend of mine actually got upset at how non-specific such rules were and decided to create a combat system that took many more factors into account.  He developed a 15-second round.  He factored all those details you were talking about.  The result of his system was that a single 15-second round in the game took a bit over an hour to get through.  It took us two full nights of gaming just to get through one battle.

I pled with him to realize that realism must be sacrificed for practicality of play.  He stuck to the notion of reality in combat being paramount.  I asked him why his rules on electricity violated the laws of physics.  He said that it's magic, that's part of the game.  So, he is in a game about magic and fantasy role-playing, but he is insistent upon reality...  

We stopped playing after two sessions.  A new game was started with a new GM.

There was another roleplaying game back when I was in high school (around 1990) called Twilight: 2000, a post nuclear war setting.  It had an immensely complex combat system that went like the one you're describing.  If I recall correctly, we had a combat where one single action went like this:

  • Bad guy fires a burst of shots from an AK-47 at one of the player characters.
  • Bad guy rolls his skill to fire.
  • GM rolls to see how many rounds hit the target and how many miss
  • Of the rounds that hit, the GM rolls to see what part of the body is hit.
  • Of the parts that are hit, the GM determines whether or not any rounds hit body armor.
  • Of the rounds that hit armor, the character hit takes blunt impact damage, rolled by the GM.
  • Of the rounds that didn't hit armor, the GM rolls to see how much damage is inflicted
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if the character hit is knocked unconscious
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if any will become infected.
  • Of the rounds that miss, the GM rolls to see if they hit anyone else.
  • If someone else is hit, the procedure above is followed for each secondary target.

So yeah, one combat took several hours with only 3 bad guys against 3 player characters.

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3 hours ago, unixknight said:

There was another roleplaying game back when I was in high school (around 1990) called Twilight: 2000, a post nuclear war setting.  It had an immensely complex combat system that went like the one you're describing.  If I recall correctly, we had a combat where one single action went like this:

  • Bad guy fires a burst of shots from an AK-47 at one of the player characters.
  • Bad guy rolls his skill to fire.
  • GM rolls to see how many rounds hit the target and how many miss
  • Of the rounds that hit, the GM rolls to see what part of the body is hit.
  • Of the parts that are hit, the GM determines whether or not any rounds hit body armor.
  • Of the rounds that hit armor, the character hit takes blunt impact damage, rolled by the GM.
  • Of the rounds that didn't hit armor, the GM rolls to see how much damage is inflicted
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if the character hit is knocked unconscious
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if any will become infected.
  • Of the rounds that miss, the GM rolls to see if they hit anyone else.
  • If someone else is hit, the procedure above is followed for each secondary target.

So yeah, one combat took several hours with only 3 bad guys against 3 player characters.

I feel your pain.

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5 hours ago, unixknight said:

There was another roleplaying game back when I was in high school (around 1990) called Twilight: 2000, a post nuclear war setting.  It had an immensely complex combat system that went like the one you're describing.  If I recall correctly, we had a combat where one single action went like this:

  • Bad guy fires a burst of shots from an AK-47 at one of the player characters.
  • Bad guy rolls his skill to fire.
  • GM rolls to see how many rounds hit the target and how many miss
  • Of the rounds that hit, the GM rolls to see what part of the body is hit.
  • Of the parts that are hit, the GM determines whether or not any rounds hit body armor.
  • Of the rounds that hit armor, the character hit takes blunt impact damage, rolled by the GM.
  • Of the rounds that didn't hit armor, the GM rolls to see how much damage is inflicted
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if the character hit is knocked unconscious
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if any will become infected.
  • Of the rounds that miss, the GM rolls to see if they hit anyone else.
  • If someone else is hit, the procedure above is followed for each secondary target.

So yeah, one combat took several hours with only 3 bad guys against 3 player characters.

If only we had, I don't know, a machine that could store such mundane statistical data in tables, then process random inputs against this data in a fraction of a second and present the results on a readout device of some sort.

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8 hours ago, Vort said:

If only we had, I don't know, a machine that could store such mundane statistical data in tables, then process random inputs against this data in a fraction of a second and present the results on a readout device of some sort.

That would completely defeat the purpose of a tabletop RPG.  I mean, I know you're kidding but it's definitely a point worth making...  To computerize the manual aspect of such a game is to turn it into a video game and now you may as well be playing Call of Duty on your Xbox.

To me, that level of pain is just a signal that there's a certain level of complexity that is necessary to maximize realism, but it just doesn't lend itself to the RPG environment.  After all, if the point is to use one's imagination, then excessive dice and rules undermine that.

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14 hours ago, unixknight said:

There was another roleplaying game back when I was in high school (around 1990) called Twilight: 2000, a post nuclear war setting.  It had an immensely complex combat system that went like the one you're describing.  If I recall correctly, we had a combat where one single action went like this:

  • Bad guy fires a burst of shots from an AK-47 at one of the player characters.
  • Bad guy rolls his skill to fire.
  • GM rolls to see how many rounds hit the target and how many miss
  • Of the rounds that hit, the GM rolls to see what part of the body is hit.
  • Of the parts that are hit, the GM determines whether or not any rounds hit body armor.
  • Of the rounds that hit armor, the character hit takes blunt impact damage, rolled by the GM.
  • Of the rounds that didn't hit armor, the GM rolls to see how much damage is inflicted
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if the character hit is knocked unconscious
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if any will become infected.
  • Of the rounds that miss, the GM rolls to see if they hit anyone else.
  • If someone else is hit, the procedure above is followed for each secondary target.

So yeah, one combat took several hours with only 3 bad guys against 3 player characters.

I used to play that computer game for HOURS. I've never met anyone else who has even heard of it! 

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My 2 kids are voracious readers - one reads fantasy stuff - @Carborendum got him into this latest craze of his with Sanderson.  The other kid reads history stuff.

They spend more time with D&D than they do their video games.  Their Dungeon Master went on a mission so before he left for the MTC, he "handed the reigns" over to my son and he's now the DM.  I don't really know how their game is played.  All I know is that my son goes through fountain pen ink like it's water (thanks to @zil for getting him hooked on fountain pens).  He has this big, thick notebook with leather binding that looks like it's preserved by the monks through the dark ages.  And he has stories and maps and character descriptions on there.  I was thinking of publishing the thing.

Anyway, one time, I passed by their game and one of the girls playing with them was crying.  I asked her what's wrong and she said they were in the middle of a battle and she was about to kill this... I think it was an orc... but then the orc begged her to spare his life because he has a son left at home who he's trying to spare from the bloodlust of the orcs and so he is only in this battle because the orcs would kill him and his son if he doesn't fight and that when he gets enough credits he will take his son and flee the orcs... so, she spared his life and the orcs killed the guy... so now she went and left the battle to go looking for this son...

So then my other son told me - yeah, they had this battle before with their other team (they have several groups they play with) - and their other friend encountered this same orc and the orc plead for his life and his friend chopped of his head.

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It sure sounds like a lot of fun. One of my regrets is getting rid of my first batch of D&D stuff when I was a teenager. Some of my friends and I were going to try it, then someone got wind of the whole "D&D is a form of satan worship" thing that seemed to follow it (and so many other fantasy frachises -- even Harry Potter), and we decided to get rid of all our stuff. I suppose some kudos to us for being willing to give up a game in favor of not offending God. In hindsight, it looks more like susceptibility to zealotry rather than good discernment on our part.

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I remember a few years ago after college - my two buddies and I had all moved to different areas, but we gamed online.  We all vacationed back at our home to hang out and catch up and stuff.  Part of what we did was, well, we went to an office one buddy's dad owned, and we sat in different rooms and played that game over the office network.    It was different this time, because we could hear each other yelling from our various offices.  And if I rolled my chair back from the keyboard and craned my neck enough, I could see the back of one guy's head.

D&D is more of a social activity.

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D&D 5th Edition at my house in about one hour.  The 5th Edition campaign rotates with my 1st/2nd Edition campaign.  I'm player in 5th and run 1st/2nd Edition.  Greatest game ever created.

Twilight 2000 rpg: the most fatal RPG I have ever played.  New characters almost every session.  

Twilight 2000 video game.  It was pretty good for its time.  

I rand a d20 Modern version of Twilight 2000 for a while.  

 

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22 hours ago, unixknight said:

There was another roleplaying game back when I was in high school (around 1990) called Twilight: 2000, a post nuclear war setting.  It had an immensely complex combat system that went like the one you're describing.  If I recall correctly, we had a combat where one single action went like this:

  • Bad guy fires a burst of shots from an AK-47 at one of the player characters.
  • Bad guy rolls his skill to fire.
  • GM rolls to see how many rounds hit the target and how many miss
  • Of the rounds that hit, the GM rolls to see what part of the body is hit.
  • Of the parts that are hit, the GM determines whether or not any rounds hit body armor.
  • Of the rounds that hit armor, the character hit takes blunt impact damage, rolled by the GM.
  • Of the rounds that didn't hit armor, the GM rolls to see how much damage is inflicted
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if the character hit is knocked unconscious
  • Of the wounds taken, the GM rolls to see if any will become infected.
  • Of the rounds that miss, the GM rolls to see if they hit anyone else.
  • If someone else is hit, the procedure above is followed for each secondary target.

So yeah, one combat took several hours with only 3 bad guys against 3 player characters.

That reminds me a little bit of my experience with GURPS. I had played GURPS Light and enjoyed it and wanted more complexity and got my hands on volumes of greater GURPS information which was awesome, only to realize that the game mechanics were very slow dealing with all those details - so I learned I preferred to stick mostly with the light rules and only occasionally borrow from the more complex rules.

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On 5/11/2018 at 12:35 AM, unixknight said:

 

After this conversation with my oldest, I decided to start really encouraging my younger kids to read.  I'm encouraging my 10-year-old daughter to finish reading The Hobbit, and not to watch the movies, at least until after she's finished it.  (Well, the Hobbit movies stink anyway so maybe we'll just skip that entirely.) I took my 6-year-old son to the bookstore and let him choose a couple of books we've been reading together.  He saw a toy guitar he wanted, and I told him that when he can read these new books to me without needing any help, I'll buy him that guitar...

 ...along with more books.

 

I love reading but I had read the Hobbit at school and I hated it, it's a long book about short people. 

When I was child I love the Chronicles of Narnia and lots of Michael Morpurgo novels. I never play board game only Catan is good game. 

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36 minutes ago, JayKi said:

I love reading but I had read the Hobbit at school and I hated it, it's a long book about short people. 

You're thinking of Lord of the Rings (a trilogy).  The Hobbit is only 287 (ish) pages - not much longer than one of the Narnia books.

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On 5/11/2018 at 9:04 AM, unixknight said:

That would completely defeat the purpose of a tabletop RPG.  I mean, I know you're kidding but it's definitely a point worth making...  To computerize the manual aspect of such a game is to turn it into a video game and now you may as well be playing Call of Duty on your Xbox.

To me, that level of pain is just a signal that there's a certain level of complexity that is necessary to maximize realism, but it just doesn't lend itself to the RPG environment.  After all, if the point is to use one's imagination, then excessive dice and rules undermine that.

I rather like the fact that it requires some calculation.  It's really motivating my kids to learn to do math in their heads.

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