Does anyone have an answer to this haunting question?!

[zil]

56 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think that when someone is in the dark, it is really easy to believe everyone is in the same boat.  There are varying levels of light. But the very definition of the sure word of prophecy is to know beyond what man's reason, or evidence, or science, or intellect can achieve. And that includes actually KNOWING rather than simply believing. 

Right.  I wasn't thinking about that any more.  I was just extending the OP's doubts about "really knowing" to the hypothetical extreme of "can you really know you're omniscient?".  In other words, I left mortality and the gospel behind and was just talking about omniscience in theory.

Hmmm.  Now back to what you wrote, particularly your all-caps KNOWING.  I think this is the key and perhaps the point I've been trying to make.  The OP seems to think that "know" is something which happens through experience, learning, something extrinsic.  But I know that it is possible to know, and to know you know - to know that what you have is sure knowledge, not conclusion, belief, certainty, or whatever else one might call it.  Sigh.  I'm thinking this is not meant to be explained, only experienced.

Edited May 18, 2018 by zil

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Luke said:

Well, I think the conclusion of all this is that there is no way to know if God is lying or if there is a fact of reality which dooms us....at least not while we have a veil placed over our spirit and mind.

dup

Edited May 18, 2018 by CV75

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Luke said:

Well, I think the conclusion of all this is that there is no way to know if God is lying or if there is a fact of reality which dooms us....at least not while we have a veil placed over our spirit and mind.

trip

Edited May 18, 2018 by CV75

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Luke said:

Well, I think the conclusion of all this is that there is no way to know if God is lying or if there is a fact of reality which dooms us....at least not while we have a veil placed over our spirit and mind.

quad

Edited May 18, 2018 by CV75

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Luke said:

Well, I think the conclusion of all this is that there is no way to know if God is lying or if there is a fact of reality which dooms us....at least not while we have a veil placed over our spirit and mind.

But it depends on what you mean by "know." For example, you seem to "know" you have a veil, which is what makes us dependent on faith, which is only one half of the faith-knowledge dynamo discussed in Alma 32. If you can trace back how it is you know you have a veil, you can project forward to know that God does not lie. This works whether if you take your reality to be virtual or actual. In many ways our subjective nature requires us to view our experiences both as virtual (perceived in our brains) and actual (effecting a future, thus creating an actual past) simultaneously.

[Traveler]

19 hours ago, Luke said:

Traveler....you blew my mind with your post.  I'm convinced your right.  In many ways, mortality is a superficial virtual reality....but on the other hand, these new mortal bodies actually adds a dimension of "reality" we had not experienced before.   I liken our mortal experience to our ability to see light....visible light is only a small sliver from the entire electromagnetic spectrum.  I heard a general authority warn about social media and virtual reality entertainment saying that Satan wants us to give up our physical reality for a virtual reality that does not include our bodies...and thus traps us in the same reality he is eternally damned to live.

 

Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I have a different understanding.  I don't think they were deceived.  I think God can forgive people that act wrongly due to deception.  I think it was Joseph Smith that described sons of perdition and the denial of the HG like looking directly at the noonday son and denying its existence.  To me it is PRIDE plain and simple.  I don't think if they were pulled out of outer darkness after a billion years would they repent or say "uncle".  They hate God and His authority that much!

Again, I'm going to partially disagree (or should I say partially agree to sound more agreeable)...yes, there are a lot of bad choices due to incorrect or incomplete info, but I know that I have made bad decisions knowing that I was sinning, knowing it was wrong, knowing the consequences....but still choosing wrongly. ( I do this every time a Krispy Creme donut is put in front of me.)  This is the most dangerous type of sin and I would guess most common among LDS (due to our correct knowledge).  I think a lot of bad decisions are also the result of immaturity (which I define as overvaluing present pleasure/happiness compared to future pleasure/happiness).

BTW:  Do you by chance come from a Jewish or Muslim background?  Just curious why you write "G_d"

Well, I think the conclusion of all this is that there is no way to know if God is lying or if there is a fact of reality which dooms us....at least not while we have a veil placed over our spirit and mind.

 

 

As a caveat, I implied relying on our 5 basic senses makes differentiating virtual reality from “reality” almost impossible.  However, I would purport that sensory information is never pure knowledge even when it is an integral part of knowledge.  We are told that spiritually sensing will result in knowledge.  It is at the spiritual level that deception and knowledge actually occurs.  But we are conversing at a sensory level so it is impossible for me to prove this to you – though you can prove it to yourself.  I have also discovered that I can “spiritually connect” but such a connection is most difficult to maintain as a fallen mortal being.   Thus, I believe that to associate with truth in this life – we must seek to repeat spiritual connections – almost to the point of scheduled ritual.

As a cyclist, Krispy Cream donuts are not much of a temptation for me just because of what they cause on ride.  This, in a small part, corresponds with a teaching of Christ, “If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”.   The point I am making is that it is not impossible to know if G-d is lying – but not at the sensory level of understanding.

For your information, I write G-d for two reasons – The first is to show respect for those I have met in my travels that hold such respect, can – without infringing of their covenants copy anything I write and show it to whomever they want.  The second reasons is to be a constant reminder to me – while on the internet – that my words reach far beyond the sphere that I may even intend and that therefore I should be a little more careful what and how I respond.  Unfortunately, there are time it is not enough.

 

The Traveler

Edited May 18, 2018 by Traveler

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Luke said:

What I am saying, is that I don't see a way that anyone can be absolutely certain that what the Holy Ghost communicated is absolutely true.

Per D&C 93:30, it is true within that sphere. For example, within the sphere of the ten commandments to kill is a sin. Within the sphere of 1 Nephi 4, it is not. This is also consistent with D&C 88:36-38, "All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified."

It also depends on what one means by absolute truth, and whether having faith in it is coupled with knowledge in (not of) it.

[Jersey Boy]

6 hours ago, zil said:

I suppose one could take that to extremes too - how does an omniscient being know they're really omniscient?  How do they know there's not someone or something behind the curtains (curtains they're currently unaware of)?  How does one know there's nothing more to be known?   I think Lectures on Faith answers that question, indirectly - or gives one sufficient to figure out the answer.

This discussion dramatically underscores the wisdom of Paul’s warning in 1 Corinthians 2 that those who have been spiritually enlightened by the Holy Ghost need to realize it’s utterly futile to try to persuade the natural man to believe in and come to an insightful spiritual understanding of the things of God. The things of God are totally beyond the comprehension of the natural man and it’s a waste of time and effort to even try to persuade him to think and believe in spiritual things that are beyond the scope of his eternally fixed and limited understanding.

So what can one do in order to help someone with an intractable natural man mindset to be transformed into a man who regularly receives the revelations of the Spirit of God? Tell him that after all is said and done it comes down to needing to establish a personal revelatory relationship with God. The spiritual side of his nature, as weak and underexercised as it might be, needs to come to realize that the spiritual aspect of his being must engage in diligent scripture study, followed by fervent petitions of prayer offered up with a broken heart and contrite spirit, with as much genuine faith and sincerity as he can muster, and that this is the only way to bring about authentic spiritual conversion. Until these things occur as a consequence of the petitioner being sincerely willing to at least temporarily put off the natural man, there will be no satisfactory resolution to discussions such as this one.

Those with living testimonies need to understand the natural man not only doesn’t want to be persuaded he is wrong but needs to be understand it’s everlastingly impossible to persuade the natural man to come to understand he is in the wrong. In addition, those who attempt to persuade those with natural man mindsets to believe in the things of the Spirit need to be aware of the fact that the natural man loves lines of argumentation based on human logic and reason, the reason being because he knows beforehand human logic and reason are powerless persuade him and will inevitably serve to only reconfirm, again and again, that he is right.The natural man cannot ever be persuaded to believe in the things of God; if one wants to believe, the only effective thing he can do is to put aside the mind of the natural man. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Xavier]

On 5/15/2018 at 5:32 AM, Luke said:

Yet, I feel my larger concern has not been addressed.  And this is probably my fault for not explaining myself better.  But, let me try to focus my question.  How can we know that God doesn't lie?  It would appear to me impossible to know, at least in mortality.

There is what we call Absolute Truth, which is what defines God. To wonder if God lies or tells the truth is counterproductive to the infantile human mind. To make this concept even more simplistic, let's look at some facts that bring the question of wether or not God lies, to rest: 

President Kimball said: 

Quote

I realize I cannot convince you against your will, but I know I can help you if you will only listen and let me call to your attention some salient truths, and if you will listen with a prayer and a desire to know that what I say is true. I would not, even if I could, force your thinking, for free agency is the basic law of God and each one must assume the responsibility for his own response; but certainly each of us must do his part in influencing for good those who might need some assistance.

So, the key to understanding is to listen and understand those silent truths President Kimball is talking about. Now, what are those silent truths? Let's explore a few:

In a talk given by President Kimball, he elaborates on the difference between relative truth and absolute truth. It's amazing and I hope you take some time to ponder it's content. I have reread it at least a dozen times and still learn something new. 

I love this quote from such talk: click here for the quote

Quote

If men are really humble, they will realize that they discover, but do not create, truth.

So, relatively speaking of truth, thats what you're experiencing right now. Regardless of wether or not you think God may or may not lie, is absolute relative to the absolute truth which is he DOESN'T.  He has said and done many things that are constant and does not deviate from what he says. Never has, never will. Otherwise he woukd ceased to be God and remember that those are the traits of someone telling the truth. 

In Mathew 7:15 - 20 we read:

Quote

 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’sclothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewndown, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So, why would God expect his servants to be truthful and not expect that of himself? It just didn't add up. So, from a logical point of view we can conclude that He Doesn't lie and will NEVER lie. It's just not his His nature and expects us to learn from him so that one day, we too may be in truth AND in spirit. 

Hope that helps clear that up a bit.

 

Regards, 

@Xavier

 

P.S. not sure why I couldn't attach the links but here they are:

"Absolute truth":

 https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball_absolute-truth/

"by their fruits ya shall know them":

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/by-their-fruits-ye-shall-know-them?lang=eng

[zil]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

This discussion dramatically underscores the wisdom of Paul’s warning in 1 Corinthians 2 that those who have been spiritually enlightened by the Holy Ghost need to realize it’s utterly futile to try to persuade the natural man to believe in and come to an insightful spiritual understanding of the things of God. The things of God are totally beyond the comprehension of the natural man and it’s a waste of time and effort to even try to persuade him to think and believe in spiritual things that are beyond the scope of his eternally fixed and limited understanding.

Interesting.  I've never considered these verses in relation to understanding the nature and source of knowledge (knowledge about knowledge, or metadata about knowledge).  But it makes sense that it would apply to anything which can only be known by the spirit. I'll have to ponder for a while.

Edited May 18, 2018 by zil

[Jersey Boy]

45 minutes ago, zil said:

Interesting.  I've never considered these verses in relation to understanding the nature and source of knowledge (knowledge about knowledge, or metadata about knowledge).  But it makes sense that it would apply to anything which can only be known by the spirit. I'll have to ponder for a while.

For your convenience, the Apostle Paul’s inspired insights on the subject:

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (2 Corinthians 2)

Edited May 18, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Behemoth]

4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

... those who have been spiritually enlightened by the Holy Ghost need to realize it’s utterly futile to try to persuade the natural man to believe in and come to an insightful spiritual understanding of the things of God. The things of God are ... beyond the comprehension of the natural man... it’s a waste of time and effort to even try to persuade him to think ... things that are beyond the scope of his eternally fixed and limited understanding.

So what can one do in order to help someone with an intractable natural man mindset to be transformed into a man who regularly receives the revelations of the Spirit of God? Tell him...

Wouldn’t it be nice, Mr. Jersey, if you could show him the difference between Zion and Sodom? How much different do you live then he does? Your words are as sounding brass.

I could try to make peace with you. But I’m sick. You have a point of course, but @Luke is really the “eternally ... intractable natural man... that is a waste of time ... to try and persuade”? 

If I’m not mistaken, I think he is asking the questions that burn his soul.

Enlightened one, be merciful with us and show us the way to the eternal joy that you know... who will you tell? Am I also an unworthy swine to have the precious pearls withheld?

We all live a suedo commited life... according to your definition it sounds like he lives a life where he knows the truth and lives it. Unless he is lying to us about his testimony and daily walk. But my perception is he lives it as if he believed or knew it were all true. I don’t think we are all that different.

 

[JohnsonJones]

 

6 hours ago, zil said:

I suppose one could take that to extremes too - how does an omniscient being know they're really omniscient?  How do they know there's not someone or something behind the curtains (curtains they're currently unaware of)?  How does one know there's nothing more to be known?   I think Lectures on Faith answers that question, indirectly - or gives one sufficient to figure out the answer.

Lectures on Faith is an excellent read.  If one has not read them, I would highly suggest they read them.

I haven't checked to ensure this is an accurate site, but a brief look appears to present the lectures on faith..

Lectures on Faith

[Behemoth]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

As a cyclist, Krispy Cream donuts are not much of a temptation for me just because of what they cause on ride.  This, in a small part, corresponds with a teaching of Christ, “If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free”.

I loved what you said here. My question though, is, how (spiritually) free are you? I think we can both agree that eating Krispy Cream donuts once a month seems far from incarceration... 

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

I think we can both agree that eating Krispy Cream donuts once a month seems far from incarceration...

Really, I think that depends on whether there's a better (aka another) donut shop nearby.  I mean, if you have to eat a Krispy Cream donut while staring longingly across the street at Dunkin' Donuts, well, that could well seem like incarceration.

(Can I get an "amen", @MormonGator?)

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

Really, I think that depends on whether there's a better (aka another) donut shop nearby.  I mean, if you have to eat a Krispy Cream donut while staring longingly across the street at Dunkin' Donuts, well, that could well seem like incarceration.

(Can I get an "amen", @MormonGator?)

We've tried to cut @zil back to three espressos a day. So far, we've been unsuccessful. 

But yes, amen to that Miss Zil! 

[Behemoth]

7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I think that when someone is in the dark, it is really easy to believe everyone is in the same boat.  There are varying levels of light. But the very definition of the sure word of prophecy is to know beyond what man's reason, or evidence, or science, or intellect can achieve. And that includes actually KNOWING rather than simply believing.

... and what does your knowledge do for you, that his belief doesn’t? 

@Luke needs to come back and establish what he understands and what he’s still missing.

Instead of saying he is all wrong as an individual, and has no faith, nor testimony, (which would be wrong, as it sounds like he actually lives the gospel) I’m saying the questions are all silly. 

How can men become God? How can God be omniscient? Does the word omniscient really mean omniscient? Can I know I exist? Is this real? Hellllooooo? Is this real everybody!!?!?!?!

 

[Behemoth]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

We've tried to cut @zil back to three espressos a day. So far, we've been unsuccessful. 

But yes, amen to that Miss Zil! 

Ouch miss Zil. I guess I’ll have to not judge you about the expressos (when I really want to...) there’s bigger messes on our hands I think;)

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Behemoth said:

Ouch miss Zil. I guess I’ll have to not judge you about the expressos (when I really want to...) there’s bigger messes on our hands I think;)

Believe me @Behemoth, if we talked about Miss Zils numerous problems we'd be here for HOURS. 

(totally playing @zil!)  

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

... and what does your knowledge do for you, that his belief doesn’t? 

Well, for one thing, I'm not as he put it "haunted" by questions that can't really be answered.

15 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

@Luke needs to come back and establish what he understands and what he’s still missing.

Instead of saying he is all wrong as an individual, and has no faith, nor testimony, (which would be wrong, as it sounds like he actually lives the gospel) I’m saying the questions are all silly. 

When did I say he had no faith or testimony?  He himself said that he cannot "know".  He further spoke of his judgment of others when he said that other people are lying when they said that they "know" the Church is true and so forth. 

I was trying to address his judgment of others.  And in that, as I posted several times, his understanding of language is quite flawed.  But based on all his responses, he is having trouble keeping anything straight in his mind.  He's gone all over the board.

15 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

How can men become God? How can God be omniscient? Does the word omniscient really mean omniscient? Can I know I exist? Is this real? Hellllooooo? Is this real everybody!!?!?!?!

Of course it's real.  But he is clearly in darkness when he's "haunted" by such fundamental questions that would cause him to question his own existence.

I did try to simply help him find answers to his questions.  But he didn't care for my answers.  Then upon reading his responses to others, I realized that he's not really listening for answers.  He's listening for confirmation of what he already has concluded.

Behemoth,

So far, you seem like a very nice and level headed guy.  I'm very glad you're here.  But I'm not really condemning or judging this guy.  I'm looking at his own words.

[Behemoth]

39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Behemoth,

So far, you seem like a very nice and level headed guy.  I'm very glad you're here.

Thank you!! Makes my heart swell! I’m glad to be here too. I recognize  the people participating here are probably not the undedicated. (Why don’t you think I’m a girl huh!? Don’t think they’d want to be called “behemoth” do you?  (not relevant))

39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Well, for one thing, I'm not as he put it "haunted" by questions that can't really be answered.

(Great answer.) That is substantial. 

 

39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

When did I say he had no faith or testimony?  He himself said that he cannot "know".  He further spoke of his judgment of others when he said that other people are lying when they said that they "know" the Church is true and so forth.

Sometimes (maybe many times), I’ve felt the same way, when I see the spiritual side of people, when called in church, so separate from their routine behavior. (I’ve come to blame the greater culture of society (somewhat) and the so called “rat race” of mortality rather then the faith of the members)

and... I have also doubted Luke’s sincerity (mostly when he didn’t respond to what I believed to be my beautiful answers).

so@Luke

have we satiated the emptiness in your soul, as it seems many of us doubt your sincerity... after our fantastic responses.

You do realize,  1+1=2, only because that’s how we‘ve decided to represent a separate reality? E.g. English has the word “eternal” (and lots more words) but they are representations of reality not reality itself other then “meta data” as @zil and others have mentioned in their beautiful (  ) responses?

Helloooooo? You real?  

(funny enough, on twitter, plenty of people have called me a bot, since my answers were so separate) (it wasnt even always political conversations)

Edited May 18, 2018 by Behemoth

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

Thank you!! Makes my heart swell! I’m glad to be here too. I know I’m not among the undedicated. (Why don’t you think I’m a girl huh!? Don’t think they’d want to be called “behemoth” do you?  (not relevant))

LOL!  My lovely wife (whom I adore to no end) has given me 7 beautiful children.  And sadly, she has a thyroid condition.  No, she would not want to be called "Behemoth".  

2 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

(Great answer.) That is substantial. 

I appreciate it.  Truly.  That is one of the great benefits of inspired faith.  It gives one the peace of mind to say,"I don't need to know it all.  I just need to know enough." (where have I heard that before?    We know the score at the end of the game already no matter all the ups and downs of the game.  Good guys win.  Bad guys lose.

2 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

Sometimes (maybe many times), I’ve felt the same way, when I see the spiritual side of people, when called in church, so separate from their routine behavior. (I’ve come to blame the greater culture of society (somewhat) and the so called “rat race” of mortality rather then the faith of the members)

I believe you're referring to the notion that people who say they know are lying?  I remember saying that same statement to my wife when I was lacking in faith.  The ONLY reason i said it was because it was a period of great darkness in my life.  But I had to realize that I was being a hypocrite.  I was declaring that I knew what was in their heads. At the same time I was declaring that there is no way to "know" things like that.  That made no sense.  Once I realized that, I stopped thinking that.

That led me to believe that possibly other people DID know something that I did not.  You have to understand how difficult this was for me.  For one thing, i tend to be pretty arrogant and prideful.  Second, there is a reason I tend to be so prideful.  I won't say why, because it would be arrogant for me to even state it.

Regardless, I stopped judging people on that note.  As a result, I began opening myself up to other knowledge that I did not have.  That was when I really learned how to feel the Spirit.

2 minutes ago, Behemoth said:

and... I have also doubted Luke’s sincerity (mostly when he didn’t respond to what I believed to be my beautiful answers).

I don't know about Luke's sincerity.  I can't figure him out either way.  My statements about his responses were not really about sincerity (as in honesty) but rather his tactics that are inconsistent with a search for a real answer.

[Behemoth]

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Truly.  That is one of the great benefits of inspired faith.  It gives one the peace of mind to say,"I don't need to know it all.  I just need to know enough." (where have I heard that before?    We know the score at the end of the game already no matter all the ups and downs of the game.  Good guys win.  Bad guys lose.

This blew my mind, when as my younger self, I was scared and very impressed by Darth Vader’s (I think it was a star wars movie) power. My dad taught me the very same concept (and, it also taught through the promises made to us by God’s prophets.)

46 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't know about Luke's sincerity.  I can't figure him out either way.  My statements about his responses were not really about sincerity (as in honesty) but rather his tactics that are inconsistent with a search for a real answer.

The problem comes from the two realities we live, I.e, in the world but not of the world. 

So if we use the english and culture of the world to debate, it may confuse us. Because to the world there is no spiritual reality. Yet, if we use our own spiritual language we can not intercommune with those we are meant to fellowship.

Logic:

Because we are correct, they live in (our understanding of) reality. And English, has and can, actually be very useful in representing that reality. If, we use English we can win. (We all need to work on it, I’m not the best) The problem is when we start changing the meaning of words. (Which is actually a very spiritual thing since spiritual things are reality.) 

E.g. 

The word “sex” was once used only to describe the gender of a sexual organism. Now, it is more commonly referred to as a verb for genital intercourse.

“gender”, became a word to replace sex, but now, is commonly used to refer to the customs, attitudes, and preferences, an individual is expected to perform.

So, what is the word that the world will make up to replace “sex” and “gender”? These words have been corrupted. What will become the status quo word to categorize between the living organisms that reproduce with distinct gametes?

Are you guys familiar with this particular example? The same can be said about many other words. They will and are being corrupted, and if we take on the meaning of the words that faithless individuals give to them, things may start to make a lot less sense.

@Luke SAID, he feels he has had spiritual witnesses, and so, I think he may just be confused (as am I, sometimes), about the meaning each of us give to our words, (because they do differ, though the words are registered equally through the ear).

but I do hate making assumptions. Respond to me Luke!

Edited May 18, 2018 by Behemoth

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Behemoth said:

Wouldn’t it be nice, Mr. Jersey, if you could show him the difference between Zion and Sodom? How much different do you live then he does? Your words are as sounding brass.

I could try to make peace with you. But I’m sick. You have a point of course, but @Luke is really the “eternally ... intractable natural man... that is a waste of time ... to try and persuade”? 

If I’m not mistaken, I think he is asking the questions that burn his soul.

Enlightened one, be merciful with us and show us the way to the eternal joy that you know... who will you tell? Am I also an unworthy swine to have the precious pearls withheld?

We all live a suedo commited life... according to your definition it sounds like he lives a life where he knows the truth and lives it. Unless he is lying to us about his testimony and daily walk. But my perception is he lives it as if he believed or knew it were all true. I don’t think we are all that different.

 

Did I not make it clear that any man who has an entrenched natural man mindset also has a spiritual component to his being that can be spiritually enlightened, nourished and strengthened by coming directly to God in true humility for help in time of need? Like it or not, the natural man is an enemy to God and always will be, and for this reason there is no hope of ever beimg able to convert the sign-seeking, spiritually insensitive fallen nature..  The only way for anyone to be truly converted to the Lord is for that man to “put off” the natural man and with a fixed determination decide to not feed into the natural man’s cynical, spiritually unresponsive nature. 

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. (Mosiah 3)

[Behemoth]

As logical concept, If I don’t understand someone else’s meaning and usage of words, but then demand THEY use my meaning or usage of words, I may never be able to grasp their spiritual message. E.G. Someone may, communicate “pass the sauce”, “please pass the sauce” and “PLEASE PASS THE ****** ******* ****** GRAVY” all in a similar spirit. Just refined differently. While one person may feel threatened by the last response, another may not, if they understand. That’s why it’s good to use standardized English... hope we can always use the spoken word to communicate ALL of existence. It’s been difficult journey for us all.