Did your children ever not want to go to church? How did you handle it?


Lee
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7 minutes ago, Lee said:

Honestly, my wife and I have 0 parenting experience neither of us even had younger siblings. We are doing our best. 

And yet you reject all the advice offered by people who have raised children past the age of 8.  (Not me, others on this board.)  Maybe consider that even though you don't like what they're saying, they might know what they're talking about?

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11 minutes ago, Lee said:

How is it a mercy to discipline him?

Did you not read what I wrote?  It's a mercy to give him the rules and structure which will allow him to focus on something other than his trials.  You seem to think that "discipline" === "punishment" - it doesn't.  It means teaching.  Sometimes punishment is how we teach, but not always.

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D&C 95:1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you—

Living in harmony with God's law brings joy.  Rules are the way we accomplish good things.  For someone to teach you that is a gift - even if it takes you years to come to appreciate the lesson.

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7 minutes ago, Lee said:

The thing is we can't give him structure if he won't agree with what we tell him to do. 

 

How is it a mercy to discipline him?

My daughter's favorite activity is to play squirt guns and getting soaked.  If I'd let her, she would do so all day-- which is a problem because it's only 60F here, being soaked for prolonged periods gets you really sick.   Me insisting upon her coming inside and getting dry clothes on is me loving her and showing her mercy.  It provides her structure in which she can have fun-- rather than getting hypothermia.  It also lets her know I love her, because we go place squirt guns together, and then later do an activity I like a lot-- it's looking beyond herself.

This applies for any person, regardless of age or spot in life.   Structure (which includes boundaries and consequences for actions) is indeed mercy and love, giving a person a framework to work in and support them as they grow.

15 minutes ago, Lee said:

Honestly, my wife and I have 0 parenting experience neither of us even had younger siblings. We are doing our best.  

And I applaud you for what you've done.  Both for the previous actions, and asking advise about future actions.  It shows how much you love your nephew and your own humility. 

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43 minutes ago, zil said:

And yet you reject all the advice offered by people who have raised children past the age of 8.  (Not me, others on this board.)  Maybe consider that even though you don't like what they're saying, they might know what they're talking about?

That is simply because they don't seem like kind words of advice, it all sounded very judgemental. 

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35 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

This applies for any person, regardless of age or spot in life.   Structure (which includes boundaries and consequences for actions) is indeed mercy and love, giving a person a framework to work in and support them as they grow.

How is an 8 year old supposed to know that ? and How am I supposed to explain that to him?

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Just now, Lee said:

How is an 8 year old supposed to know that ? and How am I supposed to explain that to him?

Honestly, he's not going to get it.  My daughter (4) doesn't remotely get it.  

One thing that can help is (when possible) having consequences which follow quickly & naturally from the actions so they can see the cause-effect connection.  Now obviously this isn't always possible-- kids' cognitive abilities are still developing, and some natural consequences are long delayed and you can't wait for that.  So when possible, have the connection shown.  When not possible... frankly there's points the kid isn't going to understand and the parent looks like the Bad Guy-- which sucks, but there's no getting around it.

Heck, I think of my own Father-- theres a lot of His "don't do this" that I don't remotely understand why, and I'm a grown up getting phD!   

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5 minutes ago, Lee said:

How is an 8 year old supposed to know that ? and How am I supposed to explain that to him?

Why do you feel the need to explain everything to him?  He is not an adult.  Being an adult means doing hard things like telling a kid NO and standing your ground because you know it is the best thing for him... even if he does not, can not understand.  Would you let him play on the freeway even though he did not understand the danger?  How about a loaded hand gun? 

Just because you can't explain it to him in a way he will understand and agree to, does not mean you should not do it.  It just means it hard.  Welcome to being a parent

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@Lee Lets walk thorough the experiences you are currently missing (but will soon get)

As parents of an infant you know that your child utterly depends on you.  They only know their needs of the moment, and they have only one way of communicating that. (Crying in protest).  You hear their cry's an respond.  Your kid will not understand that you are working the problem they only understand that they are in distress so they will continue to cry until you fix it.  This continued crying will hurt you, but you have no choice but to endure and continue.   This will strengthen you emotionally and mentally to their cries of distress in the future.  You do not currently have this. The child learns that its cries bring for a parent to tend to its needs.

Then they gain independence of movement (grabbing, crawling, and then walking) A whole new world of danger and distress opens up.  They are going to try to get into things that are dangerous, things that are messy, things that you would rather they not get into.  They do not listen, they can not be reasoned with, all the talking in the world will not stop them.  The parents have to physically act to prevent things from getting messed up.  Physically removing and distracting the child, physically removing the items.  The parent of course talking and saying No, even though it does not good in the moment.  The child learns that "No" means parental interaction is occur (even if they do not like it).  Parents get reinforced that while they are more physically active they still have no concept of anything but 'right now'.

Then they begin to talk.  They can begin to understand cause and effect.  They can begin to negotiate. But they still have issues with only seeing "right now."  As a parent you want them to develop and learn, but you still need to protect them.  So sometimes that is a flat out "No!  You can not eat all the Halloween Candy before dinner,"  Other times it is given only the choices you want/ok with them to having. "Do you want to brush your teeth before or after the story."  And sometime you let them make age relevant choices.   They begin to see cause an effect but they aren't that great at it.  But they have their parents who are helping and working with them.

Ideally at 8 years both the parents and the kid have history together.  The parents understanding where they kid is at developmentally and giving age relevant choices, the kid with a lifetime (for them) history of having a parent interact and say love them while at the same time saying No and restricting as needed.  Sadly this is lacking in your case @Lee.  It is not your fault but you do need to adapt.  The kid has no to minimal trusted history with you.  And only guessing based on what you have told us he could very likely have trust issues due to his history.  And you aren't as aware of his cognitive development as someone that was there his entire life would be.  A natural tendency with someone that walks and talks and performs basic life functions without help is to treat them as equals.  You know he needs help but you are more likely to error on the side of treating like an adult.  This will aggravate the problem.

 

Now you ask why should you discipline.   There are many reason, some have already been given.  Let me offer a different take.  There must be opposition in all things.  This is scriptural. There are many reason for this, but I am going to focus on one.  Struggle against opposition builds strength.  We see this most clearly in the physical world of exercise.  But it also happens on the emotional and mental development levels.  The world is not a friendly place.  It is full of unfairness, and unexplained reasoning.  A person's ability to cope, adapt, and even thrive in this enviroment, begins the first time someone tell them "No."  It develops more fully in a loving environment, were "No" is said, and enforced in a caring manor.  This is why you should discipline.  Lacking this you will create someone that can not function that well as an adult.

 

 

 

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On 5/14/2018 at 6:23 PM, Lee said:

I don't disagree with that, what my wife and I take in to account is that he has never had structure or predictability, even now he doesn't know when his mom is going to be able to care for him again or if she will ever be able to. He doesn't know what changes will happen when my wife has the baby. He has a lot of worries and he feels out of control of everything that has happened to him, we try to let him make decisions so he can feel like he has some form of control in his life. 

I'll tell you about what my brother-in-law did with a drastic change in structure.  His wife up and decided to divorce him without warning.  In fact, she just went off the deep end and decided it was useless to try to resist her urges to sleep around and many other things.

After the divorce the kids were shared custody or joint custody or whatever they call it in that state.  The mother completely changed into, quite honestly, a monster.  The oldest child came home to her father and said,"I want my mommie back.  That woman we just visited was not my mommie. When will she come back?"

Unfortunately, the laws of the state make it virtually impossible to deny custody of a willing parent.  And she was willing because she wanted the child support.

So, the best he could do is let her know that he couldn't do anything about the time they were at their mother's home.  But when they were in HIS home, they would be a family.  They would go to church.  They would help and support one another.  They would say family prayer and personal prayers.  They would love one another and learn to live happily and know the value of hard work, personal responsibility, service, and learn the principles of the gospel.

It's tough for the kids.  But truly, it's tougher for him.  He knows that he has to be the rock that keeps them anchored.  They may be tossed to the wind and waves while at their mother's, but when they come home he HAS to provide consistency.  He can NEVER waver.  He MUST make sure they follow the rules and do what they NEED to do.  He CANNOT give in even when his heart and soul are wrenching to just give in to their whims just once.  I don't know if I could do all that.  But he's the man for the job.

Are you?  You need to.

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On 5/16/2018 at 5:22 PM, estradling75 said:

Ideally at 8 years both the parents and the kid have history together.  The parents understanding where they kid is at developmentally and giving age relevant choices, the kid with a lifetime (for them) history of having a parent interact and say love them while at the same time saying No and restricting as needed.  Sadly this is lacking in your case @Lee.  It is not your fault but you do need to adapt.  The kid has no to minimal trusted history with you.  And only guessing based on what you have told us he could very likely have trust issues due to his history.  And you aren't as aware of his cognitive development as someone that was there his entire life would be.  A natural tendency with someone that walks and talks and performs basic life functions without help is to treat them as equals.  You know he needs help but you are more likely to error on the side of treating like an adult.  This will aggravate the problem.

I have been with him his entire life in some capacity, I was even at his birth. We do have a close bond but I have always been his fun uncle. 

 

On 5/16/2018 at 5:22 PM, estradling75 said:

Now you ask why should you discipline.   There are many reason, some have already been given.  Let me offer a different take.  There must be opposition in all things.  This is scriptural. There are many reason for this, but I am going to focus on one.  Struggle against opposition builds strength.  We see this most clearly in the physical world of exercise.  But it also happens on the emotional and mental development levels.  The world is not a friendly place.  It is full of unfairness, and unexplained reasoning.  A person's ability to cope, adapt, and even thrive in this enviroment, begins the first time someone tell them "No."  It develops more fully in a loving environment, were "No" is said, and enforced in a caring manor.  This is why you should discipline.  Lacking this you will create someone that can not function that well as an adult.

 

When he first came to stay with us we thought it would only be for a month so we wanted to make it fun for him but now it seems as though he will be with us for a long time. I don't think we can suddenly become strict with him. 

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20 hours ago, Carborendum said:

It's tough for the kids.  But truly, it's tougher for him.  He knows that he has to be the rock that keeps them anchored.  They may be tossed to the wind and waves while at their mother's, but when they come home he HAS to provide consistency.  He can NEVER waver.  He MUST make sure they follow the rules and do what they NEED to do.  He CANNOT give in even when his heart and soul are wrenching to just give in to their whims just once.  I don't know if I could do all that.  But he's the man for the job.

 Are you?  You need to.

No I am not, I am not his father we have a different relationship. 

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6 minutes ago, Lee said:

No I am not, I am not his father we have a different relationship. 

Then you've got a decision to make.

1) Give up.
2) Step up.

I do feel for you.  But that's the blunt truth.

Edited by Guest
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5 minutes ago, Lee said:

When he first came to stay with us we thought it would only be for a month so we wanted to make it fun for him but now it seems as though he will be with us for a long time. I don't think we can suddenly become strict with him. 

Then you do the boy and yourself a profound disservice.

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11 minutes ago, Lee said:

No I am not, I am not his father we have a different relationship. 

I would submit to you that more things qualify a person to be a father figure than being the biological father of someone.

I think of my husband: he biological father was an abusive child beater.  Horrible example of a person, let alone a father.  The best father figure my husband had in his life was actually a youth pastor: one who taught him self restraint, about dedicating yourself to God, and generally being a good person.  That man was much more of a father to my husband than the child beater.  

For another example: my best man has two fathers-- one is his biological dad, the other his step dad.  He has two very different relationships with them, and they both have helped him grow into a fine man himself.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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On 5/15/2018 at 7:55 PM, Lee said:

How is an 8 year old supposed to know that ? and How am I supposed to explain that to him?

He doesn't and you don't.  He learns this as he obeys.  This is actually the pattern God has set in the gospel.  You might be able to rephrase that statement you gave as "How is a mortal spirit supposed to know that (God's Plan of Happiness).  and how am I (God) supposed to explain it to him?".  The pattern is clear.  We are first taught Faith and Obedience.  We don't need to understand to have Faith and Obey.  We simply learn the structure of choice-and-consequence as we learn to have Faith and trust God in humble obedience to his Rules/Structure.  We begin to understand after we have consistently exercised Faith and Obedience.

This is exactly what discipline is.  We first teach a newborn child Faith in his Parents and Obedience.  The Parents provide the Structure by which the child can exercise choice-and-consequence as he learns to Obey his parents.  As a small baby, we instill a structure where the consequence of very immature choices are mitigated - e.g., we put plugs in electrical outlets and child-locks on kitchen cabinets, etc. etc.  The child doesn't have to understand why the outlets are plugged.  It simply is.  He learns this as he grows and he begins to understand the folly of putting your finger in the outlet.  So he learns that there are bad consequences to putting fingers in outlets without having to experience getting electrocuted.  And when the child can be trusted not to put fingers in outlets, then his world expands to rooms without plugs in outlets.

As the child grows, we expand his environment to give him more complex choices but still mitigate the risks - e.g. we allow the child to play in the backyard unsupervised but we give strict instructions not to leave the yard.  The child has the freedom to play because he has learned to Obey the Parents and not leave the yard.  If we find out he can't be trusted with Obedience we go back to simpler choices and bar the kid from the backyard unsupervised.  This goes on and on, little-by-little, line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, until the Child grows to be a teen-ager and his environment expands to anywhere he can get to with his car.  Then he becomes an adult having learned consequences of bad choices without having to have experienced getting drunk, watching porn, or getting high on drugs.  He learns the spiritual choices of loving God and making covenants and the consequences of not doing so, hopefully without having to go through the pain of unfaithfulness. 

Now, I believe that you understand the need for structure.  I'm pretty sure of it.  So, I think the issue here with Church and your Nephew is that you don't think there are bad consequences to not going to Church, or you believe the consequences for not going to Church hurts LESS than establishing the structure wherein Church is a necessity.  So, that's probably why you feel we judged you.  I didn't judge you.  I simply wanted you to understand that for a child of his age and his history, exempting him from Church would hurt your nephew a whole lot more than the immediate discomfort of establishing the structure of Church-going.  So I believe the issue is not with your nephew - the issue is with your understanding of the importance of Church in a child's life.  This is not said in a "judgmental" manner.  It simply is what it is.

So, how are you supposed to explain this to your nephew?  You don't.  You simply establish the Structure where you go to Church every Sunday.  He learns as he obeys and as he sees you - a person he trusts and loves - go to Church.  You don't need to stop being a fun uncle.  You simply need to sit down and, with your Priesthood power, design the structure by which your House is established as a House of God.  A House of God is a fun, happy, loving home structured along Faith and Obedience.  This will help you as you prepare for the coming of your own child.

 

Edited by anatess2
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When I lose my father I was 9 and my mother wasn't unwell physically but she become erratic all the time so my Grandma took me and my sisters to live with her. I never feel at home there because is not my home. I also had worry for my mother because I couldn't see her to know she was okay. I was not well behave I live with my grandma because I was always wanting to push her limit to see where is the line because with my mother I knew how much I could get away with which wasn't much. Before I could feel secure with my grandma I had to know what she would tolerate so I knew not to do it again. I wanted this boundaries so I knew how behave without it I didn't know what I was suppose to do.     

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On 5/18/2018 at 4:38 PM, anatess2 said:

 So, how are you supposed to explain this to your nephew?  You don't.  You simply establish the Structure where you go to Church every Sunday.  He learns as he obeys and as he sees you - a person he trusts and loves - go to Church.  You don't need to stop being a fun uncle.  You simply need to sit down and, with your Priesthood power, design the structure by which your House is established as a House of God.  A House of God is a fun, happy, loving home structured along Faith and Obedience.  This will help you as you prepare for the coming of your own child.

 

At the moment I can't go to church because I can't leave my nephew home alone. So he won't see me going to church. I have to convince him somehow to go to church. How can I do that?

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On 5/19/2018 at 12:40 AM, JayKi said:

When I lose my father I was 9 and my mother wasn't unwell physically but she become erratic all the time so my Grandma took me and my sisters to live with her. I never feel at home there because is not my home. I also had worry for my mother because I couldn't see her to know she was okay. I was not well behave I live with my grandma because I was always wanting to push her limit to see where is the line because with my mother I knew how much I could get away with which wasn't much. Before I could feel secure with my grandma I had to know what she would tolerate so I knew not to do it again. I wanted this boundaries so I knew how behave without it I didn't know what I was suppose to do.     

Okay so if you don't know the boundaries why would you not behave to ensure you stay in them instead of pushing them? 

How did your grandma give you boundaries? 

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32 minutes ago, Lee said:

At the moment I can't go to church because I can't leave my nephew home alone. So he won't see me going to church. I have to convince him somehow to go to church. How can I do that?

"Get dressed, Billy. We're going to Church."

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58 minutes ago, Lee said:

At the moment I can't go to church because I can't leave my nephew home alone. So he won't see me going to church. I have to convince him somehow to go to church. How can I do that?

Are you saying that if you CAN leave your nephew home alone that you would?  You think he's better off not going to Church?  

Before you can convince your nephew to go to church you have to FIRST convince yourself he needs to go to Church.  After you do this, the rest is easy.

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