Did your children ever not want to go to church? How did you handle it?

[Lee]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

Yeah an 8 year old is very different than a 16 year old. I assumed the kid was much older.. 

While I don't think you should force an 8 year old to get baptized, you certainly can force them to go to sacrament meeting with you.

@Lee, Do you think it's a problem where the kid needs psychological help?  

I don't know, we took him to a counsellor before but it is very expensive and he hated going, even the counsellor told us he just sat in silence so we stopped taking him. I think he needs some time to come to terms with all the changes in his life and then he will follow instructions better. 

[Lee]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If you do not want to fight in public... then fight in privacy of your own home.

 

You have already taught him that it is better to go to school then it is to stay home. By dragging him to a completely boring place (aka work) when he did.

So now teach him that is it better to go to church then it is to stay home.  If needed have him sit in a chair facing the corner for three hours.  If you do that trust me once will be enough.  (or you can pick something else... as long as it is boring and he can not play at all)  And since you are home you can fight without worrying what other would think.

Although I would recommend given him a heads up that things are changing before Sunday morning.

I don't care about what other people think I care about what he thinks. I don't want to fight with him, he has to feel like he is in control of things, so much has happened to him that isn't in his control. I can't force him to do things he doesn't want to do, I am not his dad as he always reminds me. I have very limited powers to enforce anything onto him. 

[Jane_Doe]

11 minutes ago, Lee said:

I don't know, we took him to a counsellor before but it is very expensive and he hated going, even the counsellor told us he just sat in silence so we stopped taking him. I think he needs some time to come to terms with all the changes in his life and then he will follow instructions better. 

A counselor's purpose is to help with that acceptance and the control issues.   If he didn't like the one, try another-- you got to find a good personality match (the applies for a 8 y.o. and 88 y.o.).  Kid's therapy usually take the form of play and hanging out on the surface, which gets the kid comfortable to talk about things seemingly on the side while playing.  It's also learning where to channel the need to be in control-- to learn which things we can control, find comfort in those, and acceptance in those we can't.

Just letting him rule the house is bad for him and you guys.  

 

Note: another purpose of counseling is too help YOU understand what he's going through and how to best help him.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Lee said:

then he will follow instructions better. 

How will he learn to follow instructions if no one's willing to teach him?

1 minute ago, Lee said:

I don't want to fight with him, he has to feel like he is in control of things, so much has happened to him that isn't in his control.

Well, he's definitely in control right now - of you.  How is that working?  Is it good for you?   Good for him?  You cannot control an airplane until you learn the rules.  Disobey the rules and you and your plane go splat into the ground.  He needs rules and they need to be consistently enforced, predictable, and with predefined consequences.  Right now, it sounds like you all are flying by the seat of your pants, changing so often no one could predict what will happen next, and you're all miserable with this arrangement.  So fix it.

3 minutes ago, Lee said:

I can't force him to do things he doesn't want to do, I am not his dad as he always reminds me

You're the adult made responsible for him - that's close enough.

4 minutes ago, Lee said:

I have very limited powers to enforce anything onto him.

So long as you believe that, it will be true.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, Lee said:

I don't know, we took him to a counsellor before but it is very expensive and he hated going, even the counsellor told us he just sat in silence so we stopped taking him. I think he needs some time to come to terms with all the changes in his life and then he will follow instructions better. 

You are in my prayers. You, him. Your entire family. 

[Lee]

11 minutes ago, dellme said:

If you have to yes-but it shouldn't ever come to that.  Kids are naturally obedient . . . when addressed in the proper manner. Kids are naturally intimidated by adults.  I mean wouldn't you be intimitaded by a being that is 12 ft tall can lift you up with two hands and throw you into the air like you were a sack of potatoes?  I know I sure would be naturally intimidated by some being who is more than twice as big as me and speaks in a gruff voice.

Really, the key to parenting is more about attitude than anything else.  If you want a child to obey then you never stoop to their level-always give clear, concise directions from a firm fully upright position.  Never say things like "Do you want to get ready for church?" (You just gave them the option to say no, and the child might just say no, now what are you going to do??), never say things like "Please go get your clothes on, okay?"  Why are you addressing a child in sing-song tone punctuated with the words okay at the end (i.e. you just made it a question rather then a command).

In the morning you simply tell the child "Billy, go get dressed for church".  "Billy, go get in the car, now".  Use the command form of the english language. Having your wife stay home with him, simply lets him know that he runs the household and whatever he wants he gets.  Now for the other aspect, using the command form generally works, but sometimes (when a child has been disobedient for a long time) the command form doesn't work and now you need consequence.

"Billy, it is time for you to pick up your toys" . . .nothing

"Billy, I am giving you 5 min. to pick up the toys, I expect them to be cleaned up when I come back"  .. . leave the room and leave the child to it.

5 min. later.  "Billy, your toys are not picked up, I will now pick them up and they are now mine for the rest of the day and you will go to your room now"

etc. etc.

Old-school parenting . . .it really works.

 

I don't think that will work, my wife has tried similar things to get him to eat the food she cooks for him but he is so stubborn he will starve himself. 

[estradling75]

1 minute ago, Lee said:

I don't care about what other people think I care about what he thinks. I don't want to fight with him, he has to feel like he is in control of things, so much has happened to him that isn't in his control. I can't force him to do things he doesn't want to do, I am not his dad as he always reminds me. I have very limited powers to enforce anything onto him. 

As I was saying... teach him the same way you got him to go to school.

He makes the choice to go or not go... but he does not choose the consequences.

Set him down and say "Mom and Dad (whatever name he knows you by) want to go to church.  If you choose not to go to church then we do not get to do what we want to do because one of us has  to stay with you.  That is not fair.  If you choose to you keep us from doing what we want, then the fair thing to do is for us to keep you from doing what you want.  So you have a choice.  You can go to church with us for three hours or you can sit in this chair facing the corner for three hours."   He knows what the conditions are... he makes a choice.. and you enforce whatever one he chooses.

[dellme]

6 minutes ago, Lee said:

I don't care about what other people think I care about what he thinks. I don't want to fight with him, he has to feel like he is in control of things, so much has happened to him that isn't in his control. I can't force him to do things he doesn't want to do, I am not his dad as he always reminds me. I have very limited powers to enforce anything onto him. 

Actually you shouldn't care much of what he thinks.  I understand he has been through a lot-but the best way for him to resolve it is for you and your wife to get it in gear and provide him with some structure, guidance and discipline.

Look, raising kids is like having a kid in a sandbox.  When they are very, very little the sandbox is small, the bounds of the box are the rules you as a parent put in place.  The world for an 8-year-old is way, way too big for them to deal with all by themselves.  They can't deal with it all-it is just impossible.  What they need is to be able to feel safe, secure and then to have freedom within the sandbox.  Yes they need control-but they need to be able to control what you give them control over.  If you give them the ability to control the whole world (which is what you are doing) at such a small age, they don't know what to do with is and things go horribly wrong.

As a parent (or surrogate parent), you MUST force him to do things he doesn't want to do . ..that's what rules are all about.  Eventually children understand that oh the rules are their for me-to help me, to help me feel secure and safe.  Man as a child a world with no rules is absolutely terrifying. You are such a small, small creature in a massively huge world that you can't begin to comprehend and there is no bound on your behavior-how terrifying not to know the rules.

As children grow the sandbox becomes bigger and bigger, rules still exist but they aren't as restrictive . .eventually until they get to be an adult where the only "rules" is really their own internal personal rules of conduct that have hopefully been cultivated over many, many years.

So what if you aren't his dad-big deal, so maybe you don't spank him . ..okay there are plenty of ways to discipline without spanking-sit in a corner, take away priveleges, send to their room, make them write sentances. 

You have to enforce rules-if you don't he will become a little tyrant and a king that you will bow down to and pay ommage to very everything.

People always want to say they don't want to "fight" their kids-look if you do the necessary groundwork of putting the law down (which means, when I say jump you say how high), you never have a fight with your kid.  But if you don't do the necessary groundwork then even the simplest of things can easily escalate into a fight. Example: leaving the park-it's time to go for dinner, you tell child let's go, child doesn't want to-if you don't lay the groundwork that will become an emotionally draining exhausting war-if you have laid the groundwork it is as simply as saying "let's go now!"

An obedient child is a happy child, a disobedient child is unhappy.  I guarantee you, you want to fix this (he has been through a lot-surprisingly kids bounce back REALLY fast), be a disciplinarian you will be amazed at how fast he turns around.

[dellme]

17 minutes ago, Lee said:

I don't think that will work, my wife has tried similar things to get him to eat the food she cooks for him but he is so stubborn he will starve himself. 

So let him starve!  He's not stubborn, he's disobedient (yes spoiled brat).  He'll get the point real quick after skipping a couple of meals.

The problem is he has learned that not being obedient gets him what he wants-i.e. he is spoiled. 

You and your wife have problems with him-its not him-it's you and your wife.  Give me a day with him-he'd obey me lickety-split, guarantee it. I'd have him fixed and he'd be very happy, real quick.

That's why he needs a stern father-figure-you aren't his father but you are a father-figure and you need to act like one. 

You have to develop that voice and "that look"; everybody who had good parents knows "the look that would kill". It's the look and voice that says, boy straighten up right now or something bad is going to happy and you will not like it at all. And you only develop it by being firm and by being mean (as in you mean what you say-when it's time to go, it's really time to go, when it's bedtime, it really is bedtime). 

Kids need to be able to trust you and right now this nephew has 0 trust in you, why b/c what you say doesn't really matter and you never really mean it.

Edited May 14, 2018 by dellme

[Lee]

1 hour ago, zil said:

Well, he's definitely in control right now - of you.  How is that working?  Is it good for you?   Good for him?  You cannot control an airplane until you learn the rules.  Disobey the rules and you and your plane go splat into the ground.  He needs rules and they need to be consistently enforced, predictable, and with predefined consequences.  Right now, it sounds like you all are flying by the seat of your pants, changing so often no one could predict what will happen next, and you're all miserable with this arrangement.  So fix it.

1 hour ago, Lee said:

He isn't in control, we care for him the best we can. We can't just force him to do things, we have to allow him a voice or we are teaching him that he has no say in anything. 

[Lee]

1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

You are in my prayers. You, him. Your entire family. 

Thank you bro.

[Lee]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

As I was saying... teach him the same way you got him to go to school.

He makes the choice to go or not go... but he does not choose the consequences.

Set him down and say "Mom and Dad (whatever name he knows you by) want to go to church.  If you choose not to go to church then we do not get to do what we want to do because one of us has  to stay with you.  That is not fair.  If you choose to you keep us from doing what we want, then the fair thing to do is for us to keep you from doing what you want.  So you have a choice.  You can go to church with us for three hours or you can sit in this chair facing the corner for three hours."   He knows what the conditions are... he makes a choice.. and you enforce whatever one he chooses.

And how do you propose we make him sit for 3 hours. He will not do that. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Lee said:

Thank you bro.

You are very welcome. God bless you my friend. 

The good news is this-he's only 8 years old, and it could be a phase. Nothing is permanent at that age. So please don't despair. We're all praying for your situation. 

[estradling75]

2 minutes ago, Lee said:

And how do you propose we make him sit for 3 hours. He will not do that. 

You are right no one wants to sit bored for three hours,  so after letting him make the choice to sit for 3 hours or go to church...  If he decides he no longer wants to sit that then say "Oh so you want to go to church?  Great lets go"  Either he remains sitting or off to church he goes and it is his choice.

Bottom line is he has understandable issues but you are not doing him any favors by letting run wild.  Bring him under control soon, because you are about to have an infant who will take all your time and energy.

 

[dellme]

17 minutes ago, Lee said:

He isn't in control, we care for him the best we can. We can't just force him to do things, we have to allow him a voice or we are teaching him that he has no say in anything. 

Umm, he is 8, he naturally doesn't have much say into anything, except maybe what toy he likes best, what is his favorite color, what to play with when it is play-time, etc.  Yeah, that's the point is that right now he doesn't have much say in anything, why, b/c he is not responsible enough to have a say into anything.

Responsibility is taught and trained it doesn't just naturally spring up. Every kid would like nothing better than to eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch dinner, play video games all day, have meals catered to them at all times, etc.  But that would be irresponsible-that's why God gave children parents, as in adults who have been alive for a lot longer and who KNOW BETTER than to eat ice cream for breakfast, lunch, dinner.

Therefore, when a parent says "no", the child should naturally obey-b/c the parent know what is best for the child.  The child doesn't know anything and must be taught, trained and civilized (yes it is a process) to know what is best for oneself.

Paradoxically, by not enforcing rules and discipline your nephew contrary to what you think he will be LESS happy than if you just enforced the law.

If you want to give him a voice, do the 'ol reverse psychology.  "Billy, you can have peas or broccali for dinner, which do you want?".

I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for (except possibly a pity party and sympathy?), you asked a question, people responded, you don't like their responses b/c either it can't work (according to you) or you don't want it to work.

It seems rather foolish to ignore the responses of several parents who have been there done that got the t-shirt to prove it, here is what I did that fixed those issues, and it worked!.  But if you want to ignore it, do it at your own peril.

Edited May 14, 2018 by dellme

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Lee said:

my wife has tried similar things to get him to eat the food she cooks for him but he is so stubborn he will starve himself.

You don't starve him, you simply limit his food choices. When he gets hungry enough, he will eat. Guaranteed.

[Lee]

16 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

The good news is this-he's only 8 years old, and it could be a phase. Nothing is permanent at that age. So please don't despair. We're all praying for your situation. 

He is a great kid, he has a very kind heart and he is very loving. He is just having a hard time right now. 

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Lee said:

He is a great kid, he has a very kind heart and he is very loving. He is just having a hard time right now. 

Been there. Childhood is so tough. My heart goes out to him. 

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Lee said:

I don't think that will work, my wife has tried similar things to get him to eat the food she cooks for him but he is so stubborn he will starve himself. 

They eventually cave and learn.  Yes, it does involve some skipped dinners and grumpy nights.

[Lee]

33 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Been there. Childhood is so tough. My heart goes out to him. 

It is especially for him. Even before he was born he lost his father, then his mom got sick so he lived with my parents for a while, now his mom is sick again and my parents are too old to care for him now, so he has had to live with my wife and me. He is constantly worried about his mom not getting better, he hasn't been able to see her for a long time, he is worried that when my wife has a baby he won't be able to live with us anymore, we have told him he can but he is still worried. It is a lot of things for a child to deal with all at once. 

[Guest MormonGator]

3 minutes ago, Lee said:

It is especially for him. Even before he was born he lost his father, then his mom got sick so he lived with my parents for a while, now his mom is sick again and my parents are too old to care for him now, so he has had to live with my wife and me. He is constantly worried about his mom not getting better, he hasn't been able to see her for a long time, he is worried that when my wife has a baby he won't be able to live with us anymore, we have told him he can but he is still worried. It is a lot of things for a child to deal with all at once. 

I'm so sorry that's happening to you. God only gives us what we can handle, and He must know you are strong enough to handle it. I'm not, that's for sure. 

[Lee]

2 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

A counselor's purpose is to help with that acceptance and the control issues.   If he didn't like the one, try another-- you got to find a good personality match (the applies for a 8 y.o. and 88 y.o.).  Kid's therapy usually take the form of play and hanging out on the surface, which gets the kid comfortable to talk about things seemingly on the side while playing.  It's also learning where to channel the need to be in control-- to learn which things we can control, find comfort in those, and acceptance in those we can't.

Just letting him rule the house is bad for him and you guys.  

 

Note: another purpose of counseling is too help YOU understand what he's going through and how to best help him.

We tried a few counsellors, my wife knows a few from her Ph.D but none were truly effective. I believe with my wife's educational background and what she has told me that we have a good idea of what he is going through. Honestly, we do not let him rule the house at all, we have punished him many times but it hasn't been effective. 

[Lee]

Just now, MormonGator said:

I'm so sorry that's happening to you. God only gives us what we can handle, and He must know you are strong enough to handle it. I'm not, that's for sure. 

Well it isn't really me who has to handle it, it is my 8 year old nephew. He doesn't have the maturity to handle his emotions. 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Lee said:

Well it isn't really me who has to handle it, it is my 8 year old nephew. He doesn't have the maturity to handle his emotions. 

Very true. 

How much you care for him is obvious. That's beautiful to see. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by MormonGator

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Lee said:

We tried a few counsellors, my wife knows a few from her Ph.D but none were truly effective. I believe with my wife's educational background and what she has told me that we have a good idea of what he is going through. Honestly, we do not let him rule the house at all, we have punished him many times but it hasn't been effective. 

A key part of parenting is finding what consequences are effective.  For example, my 4 y.o. it's the end of the world if her toy has to go to time out.  Not her-- but the toy.  So if she does something bad with the toy, it goes into time out.  Conversely, if she does something really good with a favored toy-- like if dolly helps her clean up, she gets extra time privileges.  Or another good example: if she paints Mommy a pretty painting and puts letters on it, she can paint longer. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Jane_Doe