YouTube video on patriarchy

[Vort]

I have watched nothing else by this sister except for the above. I began watching the video with more than a little skepticism. By the end of the video, I was quite impressed with her insights. She gets down to brass tacks: It's not about whether you like the historic patriarchal covenants, it's about recognizing that the patriarchal order was (and is) about reciprocal obligations and entitlements, rather than a system designed to enshrine male power and female subjugation -- which is the feminist version of patriarchy. Well done, and kudos to the narrator/producer.

[Connie]

Great find, Vort!

[Rob Osborn]

Now, if we could just get rid of the word "patriarchy". I say this in light of the fact that feminists have hijacked the word to mean "male chauvinism".

[mordorbund]

It has been my observation that wherever you find a well-functioning patriarchal society, you will also find a powerful matriarchy.

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

It has been my observation that wherever you find a well-functioning patriarchal society, you will also find a powerful matriarchy.

I think this is inescapable by the nature of paternal/maternal roles and responsibilities.

[mordorbund]

35 minutes ago, Vort said:

I think this is inescapable by the nature of paternal/maternal roles and responsibilities.

And the societal support systems that are built up to assist in those roles and responsibilities.

[anatess2]

20 hours ago, mordorbund said:

It has been my observation that wherever you find a well-functioning patriarchal society, you will also find a powerful matriarchy.

This is my mom and dad.  Also my grandfather and grandmother.  

Come to think of it... this is my husband and I too.

[mordorbund]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

This is my mom and dad.  Also my grandfather and grandmother.  

Come to think of it... this is my husband and I too.

The way I would phrase it is, this is me, my mom, and grandmother [and aunts, and women's group at church, and neighborhood playgroup]. Probably goes hand in hand with my husband, and dad, and grandfather [and uncles, men's group at church, and elks lodge].

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

The way I would phrase it is, this is me, my mom, and grandmother [and aunts, and women's group at church, and neighborhood playgroup]. Probably goes hand in hand with my husband, and dad, and grandfather [and uncles, men's group at church, and elks lodge].

Would you really?  I thought you were a man.  But with this phrasing, I'm led to believe you're a woman... named Carmen.

[mordorbund]

28 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Would you really?  I thought you were a man.  But with this phrasing, I'm led to believe you're a woman... named Carmen.

That's how I would phrase it for the Anatess character if I were an out-of-work screenwriter.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mordorbund said:

That's how I would phrase it for the Anatess character if I were an out-of-work screenwriter.

if

[Rob Osborn]

On 5/17/2018 at 1:13 PM, mordorbund said:

It has been my observation that wherever you find a well-functioning patriarchal society, you will also find a powerful matriarchy.

That's really confusing. How can you have a patriarchal society that is also a matriarchal society? Isn't that an oxymoron?

[mordorbund]

16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

That's really confusing. How can you have a patriarchal society that is also a matriarchal society? Isn't that an oxymoron?

Tell the Relief Society that it's getting disbanded and the elders will take care of all service needs.

Try sassing your grandma in the pacific islands.

Try marrying into my family if my sisters-in-law don't approve of you.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

Tell the Relief Society that it's getting disbanded and the elders will take care of all service needs.

I think this would make for a very interesting experiment, actually.  I think we would end up with the underground relief society, which would be less structured in some ways, more structured in other ways, and wherein there really wouldn't be Sunday class style lessons, just service - though some would never serve, and some who need would never be served, but mostly, service might be better where it happens.  (But that's just guessing and I could easily be wrong since my understanding of humans is questionable at best.)

[mordorbund]

47 minutes ago, zil said:

I think this would make for a very interesting experiment, actually.  I think we would end up with the underground relief society, which would be less structured in some ways, more structured in other ways, and wherein there really wouldn't be Sunday class style lessons, just service - though some would never serve, and some who need would never be served, but mostly, service might be better where it happens.  (But that's just guessing and I could easily be wrong since my understanding of humans is questionable at best.)

In Mormons and Muslims, there's an entry about the unofficial worship of Muslim women that fills this void in Shiraz.

As an experiment, I admit I'm concerned with some of the modern trends we've tried with Relief Society activities. When I was young, Homemaking was a monthly meeting where all the women would congregate together around some activity. And while the activity might not be particularly useful in and of itself (sometimes centered around some craft), in meeting monthly in a large group they would interact with other women from a different demographic. Then it was shifted to smaller, self-selecting groups (I think this happened with the introduction of Home Family and Personal Enrichment, but it might have been later). This had the advantage that the mentorships that were formed could be stronger, but the self-selecting nature of it meant that the wisdom of the elder sisters could get segregated from younger sisters that could unknowingly need it. Now quarterly Relief Society meetings have addressed that by including the larger group again, but I fear the (American) shift away from homemaking women means that RS focus on it risks alienating the younger base that needs it, while those who suddenly find themselves looking for mentors look outside Zion because they aren't seeing it there anymore (I don't think we've reached that point yet, but it is a concern of mine).

I think we need more apologetics like the one in the OP so millennials can recognize the empowerment of traditional family dynamics. Come to think of it, Daughters of My Kingdom does a tremendous job of it. Should we turn it into a podcast or a YouTube channel?

[zil]

28 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

As an experiment, I admit I'm concerned with some of the modern trends we've tried with Relief Society activities. When I was young, Homemaking was a monthly meeting where all the women would congregate together around some activity. And while the activity might not be particularly useful in and of itself (sometimes centered around some craft), in meeting monthly in a large group they would interact with other women from a different demographic. Then it was shifted to smaller, self-selecting groups (I think this happened with the introduction of Home Family and Personal Enrichment, but it might have been later). This had the advantage that the mentorships that were formed could be stronger, but the self-selecting nature of it meant that the wisdom of the elder sisters could get segregated from younger sisters that could unknowingly need it. Now quarterly Relief Society meetings have addressed that by including the larger group again, but I fear the (American) shift away from homemaking women means that RS focus on it risks alienating the younger base that needs it, while those who suddenly find themselves looking for mentors look outside Zion because they aren't seeing it there anymore (I don't think we've reached that point yet, but it is a concern of mine).

Weekly RS meetings are a struggle at best in my area.  The Stake has scheduled two types of meetings on the same night, thus making it so that some women cannot attend.  The SP has said in essence that he doesn't think them important and though the handbook says they can be held monthly and should be held at least quarterly, the SP says basically quarterly at most.  Add in the fact that our women are trying to pursue both the traditions of the world and the requirements of the Church at the same time, and no one has time for it and everyone feels fully justified in not making time for it.  Meanwhile, those few who feel a need for it feel abandoned or betrayed or frustrated.

Further, women are following the long-existing trend toward specialization.  Instead of being strictly homemakers (where the majority of sisters had common interests and needs as wives, mothers, and keepers of the household), women now increasingly identify by their careers, hobbies, and non-Church organizations.  Throw in increasing numbers of single women, single mothers, and childless wives, and Church sisters find it increasingly difficult to bond over shared experience - or so it seems.

Whether these changes in the world and the Church are good, bad, or otherwise, it certainly presents a difficulty in forming a feeling of unity among the sisters and families in a ward - or so it seems to me.  There is zero opportunity for me to present the same message to all of the (active) sisters together so that we can discuss and all get on the same page.  It's possible my view of the matter is very skewed because I'm one of those weird outliers who doesn't fit in anywhere.

Anywho, I have no clue what to do with any of this.  It seems like there's been lots of emphasis on personal, individual and family growth and self-reliance (temporal and spiritual), and I can only assume it's in part because we're not coming together as much or as well as we used to (or perhaps that option will disappear for many of us in some way we can't currently foresee) and we need to be prepared to stand alone.  Or maybe it's just that our Church relationships won't be enough to keep us from giving in to the more powerful trials and temptations in store.  I dunno.  I feel more clueless every minute.

Edited May 19, 2018 by zil

[Sunday21]

@zil Service activities such as emergency supply kits for the homeless are popular here. Everyone can see the purpose in these packages. Maybe?

[Sunday21]

Another thought. We had a brand new member from Africa teach once. She walked through one of the Prophet manuals and asked questions. Her former religion had been quite different from the lds one and it was a new experience for her to ask questions. The sisters loved the whole experience and they loved explaining the gospel to a new person.

i know that we do things differently now but..maybe you could incorporate the same feeling of discovery by having a question night? People could submit questions like ‘What to do if you are ministering to someone who is trying to avoid you’ Or ‘Why does Jesus sometimes speak as though he were God the Father?’ You could Salt the first session with questions from AskGramps or just as AskGramps questions, have the sisters respond and then read the AskGramps answer.

It seems to me that for some sisters the only thing that they have in common is the gospel so activities need to be gospel centred.

Just an idea!

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

It seems to me that for some sisters the only thing that they have in common is the gospel so activities need to be gospel centred.

I've been told the exact opposite - we get enough of that at church, apparently.  But it doesn't matter, turnout is terrible right now - 4 people at the last one (2 in RSpresidency, 1 on committee, 1 additional).  Maybe if we can get a different day of the week so there aren't conflicts with other Church meetings - the bishop was going to investigate this.

[Sunday21]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

I've been told the exact opposite - we get enough of that at church, apparently.  But it doesn't matter, turnout is terrible right now - 4 people at the last one (2 in RSpresidency, 1 on committee, 1 additional).  Maybe if we can get a different day of the week so there aren't conflicts with other Church meetings - the bishop was going to investigate this.

When I am desperate I incorporate chocolate!

[David1c]

It's nice to see women who appreciate the patriarchal order as a blessing, when administered properly. God's ways exalt the human family.