Guns and Stuff.


2ndRateMind
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No Christian can contemplate school mass murders without their thoughts and prayers reaching out to those wounded, bereaved and emotionally shaken by this latest atrocity.

But it seems that Americans love their guns rather more than they love other people's children, given this kind of event has happened many times before, and doubtless will happen many times again, and the arms industry lobby has always triumphed politically over the loss of innocent lives in the past, and looks set to continue to do so.

What is the position on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on sensible weapon reforms, such as extensive criminal and mental health background checks, the limitation on types of firearms civilians may legally own, etc?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

Edited by 2ndRateMind
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12 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

But it seems that Americans love their guns rather more than they love other people's children

Friend, these are not the words of someone seeking to understand. They are the words of a troll, someone looking for a fight and lyingly pretending to want conversation. Careful, or people might think you're @2ndRateMind.

Oh, wait...

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12 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

But it seems that Americans love their guns rather more than they love other people's children, given this kind of event has happened many times before, and doubtless will happen many times again, and the arms industry lobby has always triumphed politically over the loss of innocent lives in the past, and looks set to continue to do so.
 

 

Another bait and switch tactic.  Conflating two things in this case.  The protection of Children which everyone agrees with and wants to happen... And Government control of Guns.  The liberal side is that if you have any any objection to the government taking away guns you want Children to die.

If you want to have a discussion you have to stop insulting anyone who thinks differently then you right out the gate.

 

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16 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

No Christian can contemplate school mass murders without their thoughts and prayers reaching out to those wounded, bereaved and emotionally shaken by this latest atrocity.

But it seems that Americans love their guns rather more than they love other people's children, given this kind of event has happened many times before, and doubtless will happen many times again, and the arms industry lobby has always triumphed politically over the loss of innocent lives in the past, and looks set to continue to do so.

What is the position on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on sensible weapon reforms, such as extensive criminal and mental health background checks, the limitation on types of firearms civilians may legally own, etc?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

The question is invalid, as it makes two inaccurate assumptions:

First, that the level of gun ownership in a society coincides with murders.

Second, that the list of reforms listed is objectively sensible.

As neither are the case, I can't answer it.

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I don't think the church has any specific stance.  We believe in sustaining the law.  As in we are opposed to using guns to commit crime.

 

From my own perspective, it really isn't the guns to blame.  We have a societal problem where we let the mentally ill slip through the cracks.  There is much hatred in our society and there seems to be a tone that violence is OK to resolve an issue.  This really needs to be resolved.

We need to do a much better job as society to teach peaceful behavior to our children.  And to provide better mental health care to our citizens as well.

Taking guns out of the US society is a near impossibility at this point.  I think we are better off removing the "need" for them.

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3 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

From my own perspective, it really isn't the guns to blame.  We have a societal problem where we let the mentally ill slip through the cracks.  There is much hatred in our society and there seems to be a tone that violence is OK to resolve an issue.  This really needs to be resolved.

We need to do a much better job as society to teach peaceful behavior to our children.  And to provide better mental health care to our citizens as well.

Taking guns out of the US society is a near impossibility at this point.  I think we are better off removing the "need" for them.

Indeed... the simple fact is that Laws do not stop criminals.  And we currently have tons of laws making what happened "illegal"  none of those laws stopped this.  Yet the answer we are required to give is "I want more LAWS" or we kill children

 

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8 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Hmmm. Just seems to me that if the American nation loved it's children more than it's guns, it would already have implemented the effective protection of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

If you loved children you would protect them!  I assume that since children are suffering that you do not love them.  This logic is so flawed - you (or anyone that believes it) should be ashamed.

 

The Traveler

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16 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Hmmm. Just seems to me that if the American nation loved it's children more than it's guns, it would already have implemented the effective protection of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

2RM, you have complained several times about your treatment on this forum.  I will respectfully suggest that while you have indeed been the object of much unfortunate brusqueness on this forum; much of it is a response to loaded, passive-aggressive accusations like this one.  

Civility is a two-way street; and while we moderators are looking into approaches to improve the atmosphere here, there’s only so much we can do when a new barn-burner storms into this place, full of self-righteous judginess with both fists swinging.  A policy that demands moderator leniency on such attacks, would justly require similar leniency towards those who are defending themselves from the newcomer’s insinuations.

To everyone else (myself included):  let’s focus a little more on trying to take, and keep, the high road in these sorts of situations.  As I hint above, the mods are looking at the overall atmosphere on this forum; and @pam has been channeling her inner Thor and gazing lovingly at her ban-hammer.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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So, I can refer you to the UK example of the Snowdrop Campaign. This was an initiative of the bereaved parents of the 17 five-year old victims of Micheal Ryan in Dunblane, 1996, who held all his weapons legally. They were successful in achieving an outright ban on the private ownership of hand guns above .22 calibre, and various other tightenings of legislation. Partly, not entirely, but partly, due to their efforts, the rate of gun murders in the UK is around 1 per million population, while in the US it is about 160 per million population.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited by 2ndRateMind
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9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

2RM, you have complained several times about your treatment on this forum.  I will respectfully suggest that while you have indeed been the object of much unfortunate brusqueness on this forum; much of it is a response to loaded, passive-aggressive accusations like this one.  

Civility is a two-way street;

Note to self: must be more civil in future.

Note to moderator: would be easier to achieve this if bullying personal abuse were to be the subject of similar warnings.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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3 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

So, I can refer you to the UK example of the Snowdrop Campaign. This was an initiative of the bereaved parents of the 17 5 year old victims of Micheal Ryan in Dunblane, 1996, who held all his weapons legally. They were successful in achieving an outright ban on the private ownership hand guns above .22 calibre, and various other tightenings of legislation. Partly, not entirely, but partly, due to their efforts, the rate of gun murders in the UK is around 1 per million population, while in the US it is about 160 per million population.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Meanwhile the overall violent crime rate in the U.K. increased, especially in urban areas like London.

Just recently, and I kid you not, there have been calls for knife control laws over there.

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4 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

So, I can refer you to the UK example of the Snowdrop Campaign. This was an initiative of the bereaved parents of the 17 5 year old victims of Micheal Ryan in Dunblane, 1996, who held all his weapons legally. They were successful in achieving an outright ban on the private ownership hand guns above .22 calibre, and various other tightenings of legislation. Partly, not entirely, but partly, due to their efforts, the rate of gun murders in the UK is around 1 per million population, while in the US it is about 160 per million population.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I haven't verified that stat, but if it is true, great.  However, the murder rate in the UK certainly is not 1/160th of the US.

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2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Just recently, and I kid you not, there have been calls for knife control laws over there.

No kidding. Fact is, we have stringent knife laws, also. The legal limit on carrying is a maximum 3", folding blade.

Of course there are criminals, often with drug related careers, who carry guns and/or knives. But with such a clear definition between legal and criminal, the police can easily distinguish between the two, and tend to come down on offenders like a ton of bricks.

Best wishes, 2RM.

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Just now, 2ndRateMind said:

 But with such a clear definition between legal and criminal, the police can easily distinguish between the two, and tend to come down on offenders like a ton of bricks.

Yep.  When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

(No offense, @mirkwood.  I'm not blaming the police for the realities of home invasions and such.)

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7 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

So, I can refer you to the UK example of the Snowdrop Campaign. This was an initiative of the bereaved parents of the 17 5 year old victims of Micheal Ryan in Dunblane, 1996, who held all his weapons legally. They were successful in achieving an outright ban on the private ownership hand guns above .22 calibre, and various other tightenings of legislation. Partly, not entirely, but partly, due to their efforts, the rate of gun murders in the UK is around 1 per million population, while in the US it is about 160 per million population.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Indeed you can... but it is kind of pointless...  Others have pointed out some reasons why...

But the simple fact of the matter is that the USA is not Britain, not Australia nor any other 1st world country. The USA has a strong history and cultural of rejecting government control (See War of Independence) over its people, and we have put into our highest law, the right for people to be armed (2nd Amendment). This makes things different enough that trying to say well it worked in other countries is like going to a doctor complaining of vision problems and instead of checking you out hands you his glasses saying this should do it... After all it worked for me.

And none of this address the fact that we do have laws against this kind of stuff...  Yet it does not stop just because someone makes yet another law

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31 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I haven't verified that stat, but if it is true, great.  However, the murder rate in the UK certainly is not 1/160th of the US.

Well this thread is themed around guns, so the overall murder rate is a subsidiary issue.

But according to wikipedia, the rate for the UK is around 10 homicides per million population, and the US around 560 per million. So, that's still a significant difference, which may be partially due to gun control, since a gun is a force multiplier, in that you can kill a lot more people, a lot more quickly, at far greater range, with a gun, than you can with a knife. If that is your intent.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited by 2ndRateMind
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1 hour ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Hmmm. Just seems to me that if the American nation loved it's children more than it's guns, it would already have implemented the effective protection of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Look where the dollars go to determine priorities. Far more is spent on children - health, education, accomodation, etc, - than is spent on guns. Sure, guns and gun owners get some rights and protections, but children get HUGELY more. 

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5 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Well this thread is themed around guns, so the overall murder rate is a subsidiary issue.

But it's not subsidiary, if your actual intent is to reduce homicides, and not simply focus on guns.   Take a gun away from someone who wants to kill and they aren't going to just give up and watch TV instead.  They'll just find another way, like a knife, a bomb or a truck.

Only now, in a gun-free utopia, the victims do not have the means to defend themselves.

5 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

But according to wikipedia, the rate for the UK is around 10 homicides per million population, and the US around 560 per million. So, that's still a significant difference, which may be partially due to gun control, since you can kill a lot more people, a lot more quickly, at far greater range, with a gun than you can with a knife. If that is your intent.

And you can kill even more with a truck, as recently happened in several places, including London.  Or a bomb, or sarin gas.  

Outlawing guns is a feel-good measure at best, and doesn't make people safer.  Ever notice that most of these mass shootings occur in "gun-free zones?"

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8 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Well this thread is themed around guns, so the overall murder rate is a subsidiary issue.

But according to wikipedia, the rate for the UK is around 10 homicides per million population, and the US around 560 per million. So, that's still a significant difference, which may be partially due to gun control, since you can kill a lot more people, a lot more quickly at far greater range, with a gun than you can with a knife. If that is your intent.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I looked at the article and it lists 0.92/100k for the UK and 4.8/100K for the US.  The US has 5 x more homicides,  but way way way more than 5x the number of guns.  And then there is Switzerland.  their rate is 0.69/100k.  That is lower than the UK, but their gun ownership rate is quite high.  What gives?  They can kill a lot more people, but they don't...  Guess maybe it really isn't a gun issue...  at least not only a gun issue.

 

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